I would really like to get a Gree Tree Python

Ok so my set-up is a 45+gallon long stood on end, with black screen top that folds in the middle on a hinge on the front of the vertical aquarium, I ma going to put a vicks vaporizer in the bottom on low and the lower quarter of the screen will not covered in plastic the middle will be covered and the top quarter will be open as well to have heat,(lower dowel rods) cool(upper dowel rods) and humidity being well circulated... Does this sound sufficient and where can i get a GTP? I was hoping maybe someone in iowa if not i don't trust live animals shipped in winter unless you know different and i'm always open to suggestions

Ok, to be honest, that tank will not provide a good home for a GTP. These guys may be arboreal, but they need a wider space than a 45g turned on end. Keep in mind that they will move side to side to thermoregulate - not up and down. The BEST size for an adult GTP is an enclosure that measures 3 feet WIDE by 2 feet tall and 2 feet deep. The heat source (best provided by a radient heat panel from above on a t-stat) is placed to one side so the snake can move side to side to regulate its temps. You do need something smaller for neonates, but if this is your first GTP, I highly recommend picking up an older juvenile or young adult that is well-established instead of a more delicate baby.

Wider is still better than tall for these guys. You might be ok with that 45g tank setting it up the way its supposed to be and not setting it on end. But you'd need to figure out how to attach the radient heat panel from the top. Can't use a UTH with these guys...

I recommend Jim at PVC Cages. His enclosures are perfectly designed for GTP's and hold humidity really well (a vaporizor would not be necessary with one of these). They aren't too badly priced either.

I am acquiring a GTP from Rocky Gravley in Alabama in the spring - the Arboreal Enthusiast. I live in Michigan and did not want to ship either and neither did he. He is delievering my snake to me at Tinley in Chicago in March (can't wait, lol). So that might be an idea for you. Rocky is GREAT to talk to and very very helpful! He'd give you some additional caging tips too. I am having a wonderful experience working with him. He has some new ones available too - including some young adults that are easily handled!

Hope this is helpful to you! :gj:

Great info from Evenstar. I would not use the setup you described.

I also recommend getting something a bit older. A yearling at least.

I heartily recommend reading "The MORE Complete Chondro" by Greg Maxwell if you're serious about getting a GTP. I know it's pricey for a book, but if you really want a GTP, $50 is a drop in the bucket.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainbutter

I heartily recommend reading "The MORE Complete Chondro" by Greg Maxwell if you're serious about getting a GTP. I know it's pricey for a book, but if you really want a GTP, $50 is a drop in the bucket.

---

I forgot to recommend that!! Thanks for remembering! Yes, that's an awesome book. It was hard for me to spent the $50 but when I got it, I read it cover to cover and it is sooo worth it! GTP Bible! :gj:

they are great looking snakes, best of luck if you get one

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Evenstar

Ok, to be honest, that tank will not provide a good home for a GTP. These guys may be arboreal, but they need a wider space than a 45g turned on end. Keep in mind that they will move side to side to thermoregulate - not up and down. The BEST size for an adult GTP is an enclosure that measures 3 feet WIDE by 2 feet tall and 2 feet deep. The heat source (best provided by a radient heat panel from above on a t-stat) is placed to one side so the snake can move side to side to regulate its temps. You do need something smaller for neonates, but if this is your first GTP, I highly recommend picking up an older juvenile or young adult that is well-established instead of a more delicate baby.

Wider is still better than tall for these guys. You might be ok with that 45g tank setting it up the way its supposed to be and not setting it on end. But you'd need to figure out how to attach the radient heat panel from the top. Can't use a UTH with these guys...

I recommend Jim at PVC Cages. His enclosures are perfectly designed for GTP's and hold humidity really well (a vaporizor would not be necessary with one of these). They aren't too badly priced either.

I am acquiring a GTP from Rocky Gravley in Alabama in the spring - the Arboreal Enthusiast. I live in Michigan and did not want to ship either and neither did he. He is delievering my snake to me at Tinley in Chicago in March (can't wait, lol). So that might be an idea for you. Rocky is GREAT to talk to and very very helpful! He'd give you some additional caging tips too. I am having a wonderful experience working with him. He has some new ones available too - including some young adults that are easily handled!

Hope this is helpful to you! :gj:

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainbutter

I heartily recommend reading "The MORE Complete Chondro" by Greg Maxwell if you're serious about getting a GTP. I know it's pricey for a book, but if you really want a GTP, $50 is a drop in the bucket.

---

Agree. This is all great info.

Thank You all I thought they stayed small 6' is larger than i was expecting thanks again everyone and I will be putting the book on my xmas list to the family:) Happy turkey day!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atherosdragon

Thank You all I thought they stayed small 6' is larger than i was expecting thanks again everyone and I will be putting the book on my xmas list to the family:) Happy turkey day!

---

They don't generally get 6 feet. The males average 4-5 feet and around 1000 grams +/- as adults. The females do get a bit larger, and 6' is possible and has happened, but it is rare.

They need a 3x2x2 foot cage simply because they are chondros, they are truly arboreal, and they need that side to side ability to thermoregulate. :gj:

Hope you get the book for Christmas! It really is a great read!

Yeah. I would say my boy is under 5 feet.

How many of you keep chondros and how many have you raised or bred?

Without intentionally sounding like a jerk, I ask because I see so much "misleading" information on keeping chondros. I personally have been keeping chondros since 1995 and breeding them since 2000.

My first adults were kept in cages 30" wide X 16" deep X 48" tall for around 3-4 years. I produced my first two clutches in this setup. The adults picked their perch and pretty much stayed there. Very seldom do they stray from their "spot" unless temps are just out of control or they just want to ground. I offered elevated water as well as ground water and both were used. I used regular incandescent lights for heat....a standard soft white for day and a red for night heat. This setup worked as good as any I have ever used but goes against what "the books" say.

I now house my adults in 20" cubes with a strip of 3" heat tape between cages side by side. I have had this setup for about 7 years now. I have some rather large females, some in the 1800-2000 gram range and they are in great overall health. I just had two females ovulate in the last 3 weeks and one is going through a pre-lay at the moment.

One of the largest breeders of chondros and etb in the world, if not the largest, keeps his animals in GLASS cages with SCREEN tops and fronts. To top it off, he uses overhead lighting for heat. His cages are around 16" wide X 18" deep X 24" tall and he keeps, and breeds, some very large Amazon Basin Etbs in them. I have quarantined adult chondros in 10 gal aquariums for 2 year periods. These animals have shown no ill effects from doing so.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...esaug13036.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...esaug13038.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...esaug13081.jpg

My point is, the books are a GREAT resource but chondros can't read. Most of the "requirements" we use are for us, not the animals themselves. In my opinion a 3'x2'x2' cage is way overkill. If you get a chance, read Dr. David Wilson's paper on chondros in the wild....the information he gathered over three years in the wild will surprise you beyond words.

Again, I'm not trying to sound like a know-it-all....just relaying my experience, as well as others that have done it for much longer than I have. Do what is best for your animals.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...s/DSCF6539.jpg
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ondros/195.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

How many of you keep chondros and how many have you raised or bred?

---

That sounds like a question for a new thread.......

However, I have nothing to hide or be ashamed of. I don't breed chondros and I only have one and it is my first. However, I am the sort of person who very carefully and extensively researches any new interest with particular regard to my animals. I feel it is my responsibility to know as much as I can about a species before ownership so I can provide the best care possible. I have spoken with multiple well-respected breeders of chondros, I am a member of the morelia viridis forums, I have read "The More Complete Chondro" cover to cover several times (yes, several times; you should see the book - sticky notes and notes in the margins - it looks like one of my old college text books...), and, along with contiued education, as a result, I feel I have learned a great deal about these snakes. Do I know everything? Absolutely not, nor have I ever alluded that I do - experience certainly counts for something and I don't have much of that. But learning is a life-long process - and even breeders or keepers of decades with dozens of these snakes should always still be learning and attempt to keep an open mind.

The information I gave the OP in my first post can all be found in "The More Complete Chondro" alone:

"GTPs are small, as pythons go... The author has observed specimens over six feet in length and approaching 2000 grams in weight, but these are exceptional. The average adult male will be between four and five feet in length and will weigh 900-1200 grams..." (TMCC pg 11)

"...the smallest size I would recommend for the average adult is a cage 36" long, 24" high, and 18"-24" deep. Larger animals, especially mature females, should have a cage 36"-48" long, and I consider this an ideal size for most chondros. Conversely, a cage longer than 48" or higher than 24"-30" is excessive and can have disadvantages... Most importantly, it is nearly impossible to provide an adequate thermal gradient in a smaller cage." (TMCC pg 170-171)

"...chondros benefit from cages oriented on a horizontal plane rather than a vertical one. It has been my observation that most chondros will ignore a vertical thermal gradient and will select the perch that makes them feel most secure regardless of whether or not that location is within the ideal temperature range... A horizontal cage, wider than it is tall, is more practical and is better utilized by the animals than a tall narrow cage... [a perch] is located in the top third of the cage, and when a radient heat panel is installed at one end the animal has both a heat gradient and the highest perch in the cage!" (TMCC pg 171-172)

All of these quotes come directly out of "The More Complete Chondro" written by Greg Maxwell, owner, breeder, and keeper of exclusively chondros with over 30 years experience and one of the most highly respected authorities of GTPs in the world. All of this information has been confirmed by the 3-4 other highly respected breeders I've spoken with.

Any advice I ever give a person is thoroughly backed up by research with the animal's well-being in mind. This advice is given with the hope of getting the person in a position to experience the best chances for success. It is very possible for a "newbie" to offer legitimate, truthful, helpful, and effective advice. It is also possible for other newbies to recognize good advice and perfectly acceptable for them to agree with it. Just because they are new does not mean they can not have valid and helpful opinions. Your question, Brandon, might be more justified if I had offered inaccurate advice which I do realize can happen with a newbie if there is a lack of educated research, but the fact remains that I did not offer poor advice. I stand behind the advice I offered. It is, of course, up to the OP to accept it or look the other way. Either way, I would hope he will continue to do his own research on the subject.

I have respected your opinions on this forum, Brandon, so I sincerely hope you aren't being antagonistic. If I am misunderstanding you intentions, I am truly sorry. The "experts" of GTPs on this forum had not answered the op's questions yet so I took a shot. If there was any issue or question that I did not know the correct answer to, I would have stated that and also looked for the future advice from others with more hands-on experience.

Also, if you feel the advice given was inaccurate in any way, why don't you point out what you feel was incorrect? There is nothing wrong with disagreeing and offering another perspective. :gj:

And after seeing your following post, I see you have stated your alternate perspectives - thank you! And thanks for the pics!

Just for the record, I have no problem with glass enclosures. My snakes are all currently in tanks and they are all doing great! My issues were more with regard to size: the size tank standing on end that the OP first talked about is quite narrow and my concern was for the sideways thermal gradient. I only suggested the pvc cages as a matter of convenience - not that glass and screen was bad. It most certainly is not necessarily so.

No, chondros can't read, lol. But the advice given in that book is deamed from Greg's 30 years experience working with them. I still say my original advice was in no way "misleading". Sure, there are other ways of doing things and those ways are not necessarily wrong. But a recommended way is recommended by experts for a reason: it works and provides more convenience and ease of care which is helpful to a newbie.

Incidentally, I have read that paper by D. Wilson and it is a good read. ;)

I think it depends on the ambient environment, to be honest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

I think it depends on the ambient environment, to be honest.

---

Definitely. It is similar to the discussions pertaining to open rack systems with an ambient acceptable temperature vs racks that are more of a closed style and don't necessarily need the room to be heated. Different species and caging system, but similar themes.

I'd say stick to guidelines that are given by reliable books and people with experience, then work out the tweaks that make it a good environment for your animals and you. Knowing the house I live in and what kinds of options I have with where my animals can be kept, I'd go with an enclosed PVC cage with heat panels and t-stat, but that's because I'm in a cold, dry climate in a poorly insulated house. No go for screen cages with me, everything is enclosed with strict temperature and humidity monitoring daily or even a couple times during the day

Not trying to be antagonistic at all. I just want people to know there are many more ways to keep animals than what some "experts" write in books. I was not trying to say the information you gave was misleading, but that many are misled by one-sided opinions.

As far as I am aware, GM didn't start keeping chondros until the early to mid 90s and sold his collection several years ago when he recognized a decline in the market.....and having a couple of bad years of production didn't help. He gained most of his information from Rob Worrell, who kept most of his breeders in 10 gal aquariums, Eugene Bessette, who used 20 gal longs stood on end with screen fronts, and Trooper Walsh, who also used aquariums and switched to small tubs later on.

As I mentioned, books are a great resource but they are not the end all be all when it comes to correct information and keeping. I like GM and have been to his house a couple of times. My problem with some "experts" is they refuse to acknowledge some methods that are equally efficient or beneficial to the animals. In my personal opinion and experience a 48" cage is NOT an appropriate setup for any chondro. Heating and humidity are very tough to regulate unless, as mentioned above by VP, you have your entire ambient setting in check. My frustration comes from the opinion that everything but the book is wrong or improper.....as I have seen many times. If that were the case, many of the best and most experienced chondro keepers would be outcasts.:P

As always, do what is best for your animals and you can't go wrong.

I personally will be getting a smaller PVC cage once mine grow up, in between what you use Brandon, and what the book suggests. I have seen many keepers mention it really isn't necessary to have all that space, if there is just enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

I personally will be getting a smaller PVC cage once mine grow up, in between what you use Brandon, and what the book suggests. I have seen many keepers mention it really isn't necessary to have all that space, if there is just enough.

---

Jessica, you are correct. Adults RARELY "thermoregulate". They find a particular spot they like and they stay there. There is really no need for more than one perch simply because they do not use them. A 24" cube is the largest I would use. I have one and don't even use it because I think they are too big....just my opinion. I do have a few 30 x 20 x 20 cages that I like, but any larger in height or depth would be too much for my animals' needs. They are now used for smaller Carpets. Chondros just don't use the space they are offered much less multiple perches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandon Osborne

Not trying to be antagonistic at all. I just want people to know there are many more ways to keep animals than what some "experts" write in books. I was not trying to say the information you gave was misleading, but that many are misled by one-sided opinions.

As far as I am aware, GM didn't start keeping chondros until the early to mid 90s and sold his collection several years ago when he recognized a decline in the market.....and having a couple of bad years of production didn't help. He gained most of his information from Rob Worrell, who kept most of his breeders in 10 gal aquariums, Eugene Bessette, who used 20 gal longs stood on end with screen fronts, and Trooper Walsh, who also used aquariums and switched to small tubs later on.

As I mentioned, books are a great resource but they are not the end all be all when it comes to correct information and keeping. I like GM and have been to his house a couple of times. My problem with some "experts" is they refuse to acknowledge some methods that are equally efficient or beneficial to the animals. In my personal opinion and experience a 48" cage is NOT an appropriate setup for any chondro. Heating and humidity are very tough to regulate unless, as mentioned above by VP, you have your entire ambient setting in check. My frustration comes from the opinion that everything but the book is wrong or improper.....as I have seen many times. If that were the case, many of the best and most experienced chondro keepers would be outcasts.:P

As always, do what is best for your animals and you can't go wrong.

---

After reading your 2nd post (the one with the pics - those were beautiful by the way) I totally see you weren't being antagonistic - I started typing my response before I saw that and I didn't think you were that type of person anyhow, lol. :gj:

I certainly don't think everything in GM's book should be taken as gospel. We all have to use common sense and appropriate judgment to determine what's best for our individual animals. For instance, I also think a 48" cage is too large even for a large female. That's why I do so much research.

I am using a 3x2x2 pvc cage for "Hunter" my 8yr old GTP. But I made this decision because the breeder, Rocky Gravley, told me that's what Hunter had always been in and he seems to use his space. Hunter is also an exceptionally large male at over 5ft. My home is also cool so while the glass tanks work ok for my ball and my boas, I didn't want to chance it with Hunter. I love the cage and so does he! ;)

I still think a 45gal tank set on end is a bit narrow for an adult GTP. A 45gal long tank measures 48 x 12 1/2 x 18 inches. 12 1/2 inches wide just does not seem wide enough, especially for an adult. I think 18-20" should be the minimum. I'm not being argumentative, this is just my opinion. :D

WOW Brandon Thank You SO much those are amazing animals and I wish I already had one... Now my ambient temp in the snake room is 78-82 degrees. I have a base board heater in every room in my Apartment and they all have thermostats by the door to the room with the base board on the opposite wall I have three thermometers one on my Rheostat controlled DIY Rack for my BPs and the hot spot is 90-92 the ambient temp varies from close to the rack(82) and by the door (75-78) I have two Vicks Vaporizers to keep the room's humidity up if i have problems with moisture (now that i have the rack the vaporizers are not needed) so I wanted to use the vaporizers as a way to keep something that needs constant humidity... So everyone please tell me if THIS is a good idea. I want a Chameleon but moisture and calcium is the usual death of them and it would seem the taller the cage the better more climbing n such... So like 55 gallon aquarium work? on end for Chameleon or GTP? Personally (I am not trying to start a fight or anything close to that but i've seen you tube videos by BHB(snake bytes tv) reptiles keeping the GTPs on tiny dowel rods in small rubber maids just like my BPs... now isn't his enclosure smaller than my first suggestion of a 45? and honestly I have screen tops for both my 55 and 45 gallon... can I use these? but most of all My biggest question is Will the vicks vaporizer with my air-flow setup described at first work for tropical herps? Once again Thank you all you are very knowledgeable and helpful!