cant maintain a high temperature in glass cage

I set up my tank monday and today is wednesday. My problem is i cant seem to raise the temperature on my hot side. I have a UTH plugged into a thermostat that is currently at 95. I have it set at 95 because im trying to raise the temperature on the hot side. I have my thermostat probe right above my substrate (cypress mulch) behind the hide. This way i can see if the thermostat will turn off if it reaches 95. I have a acu-rite thermometer probe right next to the thermostat probe that reads 81 degrees. I have a black heat light thats 50W. I should switch to a higher wattage, but i read i that heat lamps kill humidity? I would rather have my UTH doing all the heating, and leave my heat lamp as an option whenever it gets colder..

My cold side is below 75. It must be freezing for him over there. Hes always on the hot side.

Im deciding if i should foil wrap the tank lid to try to keep in the heat. I currently have a towel on it.

Am i placing the probes in the right area? Im new to all this caging maintenance.

Thank you for any suggestions or comments.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...w/c225b1e1.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...w/75c5f3c8.jpg

Hi,

A few quick ideas.

You seem to have a LOT of substrate in there - try a thinner layer.

You can insulate the sides, back and bottom of the tank with either cork sheeting or pollystyrene insulation boards. :)

Yes, using foil on the lid can help too.


dr del

Del hit on what I was gonna say. Try covering the lid with foil (except where the light is) Also if you know where the UTH sits while your at 95 try to turn it up some. Just make sure to keep an eye on it.

If I'm correct.. you have a 20 long? If so we have the same cage. But... I am Assuming... I don't use a UTH yet, I don't have the extra funds to pick up a thermostat, and ours hit over 110 easily... our black pastel actually got burnt from It.. tbh, I use newspapers And have for awhile. (Local peg store had a mite outbreak) but using a 100 day And 75 night I get perfect tempts and humidity. My normal ball just had a perfect 1 piece shed this morning. :) now this works for me, I also have 3 tanks and a humidifier that runs 24;7 in my room. I would suggest a uth though and to follow Dr Dels advice. But remember, what works for one person might not work for You!

A side note, you could turn up the temperature inside the house/room.

@ dr del - ill remove the substrate to keep it thin. The shop owner told me to use the entire bag. And ill look ibto insulating the sides with foil lid.

@zeion - it is a 30x12x12. What are you using as a heat source? I would love to get into the 100s!

Is the UTH the appropriate size for the size tank you have? If it's too small, it may not heat up sufficiently. Also, do you have it on a thermostat? Sometimes the temp dial on the thermostats aren't always the most accurate and you have to fiddle a little with them to get them right. My thermostats do a great job of keeping the temp once set, but the temp dials on them are useless.

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Originally Posted by jackiechan

I have my thermostat probe right above my substrate (cypress mulch) behind the hide.

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I'm surprised no one mentioned this yet. The thermostat probe should be directly touching the heat source. I.e, the probe should have been placed on the bottom of the tank, with the heat source taped ON TOP or it, or you can use tape (aluminium tape works best) to tape your thermostat probe on top of the heat source.

The thermometer probe should be right above (or just a tiny thin layer below) the substrate.

Other then that, I was going to suggest thinning out (A LOT) of your substrate, but someone has already mentioned this.

Good luck.

I would double check your temps with another thermometer to rule out if its a problem with your other thermometer or a problem with your thermostat. What thermostat are you using? Cheaper ones, like Hydrofarm, are crap and not very accurate in my experience and take a lot of tweaking. I have NEVER had a problem with my Herpstats and they are always within +/- 0.5 degrees, although its usually closer than that. They are pricey, but worth every penny.

Another possibility could be your heat mat going out. Probably unlikely, though.

But as Dr. Del said, you can insulate it and that will help. Glass tanks are notorious for being a PITA to regulate temps.

If you're worried about humidity, just mist the cage a little more often or add some sphagnum moss or cover part of the top with a damp towel.

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Originally Posted by CatandDiallo

I'm surprised no one mentioned this yet. The thermostat probe should be directly touching the heat source. I.e, the probe should have been placed on the bottom of the tank, with the heat source taped ON TOP or it, or you can use tape (aluminium tape works best) to tape your thermostat probe on top of the heat source.

The thermometer probe should be right above (or just a tiny thin layer below) the substrate.

Other then that, I was going to suggest thinning out (A LOT) of your substrate, but someone has already mentioned this.

Good luck.

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I started off with my thermostat probe directly on top of my UTH. The thermostat would turn off everytime it hit like 92 but that was the problem. It was 92 at the glass... But above the substrate inside the hide it was only 80-85.

The reptile store guy told me to place the thermostat probe above the substrate, this way the thermostat will make the uth heat up the cage entirely until its 92 where the probe is.

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Originally Posted by AK907

I would double check your temps with another thermometer to rule out if its a problem with your other thermometer or a problem with your thermostat. What thermostat are you using? Cheaper ones, like Hydrofarm, are crap and not very accurate in my experience and take a lot of tweaking. I have NEVER had a problem with my Herpstats and they are always within +/- 0.5 degrees, although its usually closer than that. They are pricey, but worth every penny.

Another possibility could be your heat mat going out. Probably unlikely, though.

But as Dr. Del said, you can insulate it and that will help. Glass tanks are notorious for being a PITA to regulate temps.

If you're worried about humidity, just mist the cage a little more often or add some sphagnum moss or cover part of the top with a damp towel.

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I just got everything brand new in package 2 days ago. And my thermometer earlier tonight. My thermostat is zilla from petco.. Like ~ $50

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jackiechan

I started off with my thermostat probe directly on top of my UTH. The thermostat would turn off everytime it hit like 92 but that was the problem. It was 92 at the glass... But above the substrate inside the hide it was only 80-85.

The reptile store guy told me to place the thermostat probe above the substrate, this way the thermostat will make the uth heat up the cage entirely until its 92 where the probe is.

I just got everything brand new in package 2 days ago. And my thermometer earlier tonight. My thermostat is zilla from petco.. Like ~ $50

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Yeah, never take the advice from the employee at PetCo that makes $7 an hour. Very rarely do they know what they are talking about, nor do most even care. There are lots of fine breeders and very knowledgeable people on here who are always willing to answer your questions. Good job coming here. :gj:

You want the thermostat probe on the UTH and your thermometer probe on the glass under the substrate. Thin your substrate (1/2" or so deep is all ya need) and if your ball gets cold it will seek out the heat and bury itself to the bottom of the tank. If you have it hot enough to warm the top of the substrate, it can burn your snake if it buries itself.

Not to be rude, but those Zilla thermostats are junk. Better than nothing, but they aren't very accurate and I personally wouldn't trust one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jackiechan

The reptile store guy told me to place the thermostat probe above the substrate, this way the thermostat will make the uth heat up the cage entirely until its 92 where the probe is.

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It's still not the right thing to do. That's how you end up with a snake with a burnt belly (if the snake digs under the substrate and lays on the glass, which they frequently do).

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Originally Posted by jackiechan

My thermostat is zilla from petco.. Like ~ $50

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That'll be an unreliable thermostat. That's why you're having problems. I would return it.

The best way I've found to layout my cage is to use paper towels instead of bedding. 5 of the half sheets fit the tank perfectly and are extremely easy to change. (this is for a critter cage, such as Petsmart sells. I think it's a 20 long.)

I have a UTH on my hot side plugged into a lamp dimmer (get this at Lowe's for $10) to keep it at a good 95˚ (otherwise it gets up to 120˚ and that's a small one!). My cool side is just a lamp with a 60w bulb and it's a perfect 83-85.

Also, when your snake is in shed, the paper towels will absorb water to help keep the humidity up. As for the lid, it's covered in foil insulation tape. PM me if you want to see picks of the cage!:gj:

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Originally Posted by BrandonStoudt

I have a UTH on my hot side plugged into a lamp dimmer (get this at Lowe's for $10) to keep it at a good 95˚ (otherwise it gets up to 120˚ and that's a small one!). My cool side is just a lamp with a 60w bulb and it's a perfect 83-85.

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95 degrees is kind of pushing it and 85 is also a bit warm for a cool side. I would suggest 90-92 for a hot side and 80 for your cool side and an ambient temp around 82-84ish.

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Originally Posted by AK907

95 degrees is kind of pushing it and 85 is also a bit warm for a cool side. I would suggest 90-92 for a hot side and 80 for your cool side and an ambient temp around 82-84ish.

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Well, the temps range, according to my room temp as well. When my room is nice and chilly it's usually 92 or 93 and 83 on cool. I haven't gotten it perfect yet since I just set it up but my sister has them same set up for her 4 year old Ball but a bigger tank. I'm using his old one.

Correct me if Im wrong, but it sounds like your room temperature is around 70-75. This means that with a cool ambient room temperature like that, its quite frankly impossible to heat up an entire glass enclosure with just a UTH. "The reptile store guy" frequently gets a lot of things wrong in my experience, I would listen to any of the experienced members on here before I check anywhere else for information.

So in your case, since you are using a glass tank, here are my suggestions:

1) Like del said, get some kind of insulation (corrugated cardboard is a great temporary insulator) and tape it to 3 sides of your glass tank, every side but the front.

2) Put 2-3 layers of tin foil and tape it to the top of the enclosure, leaving either 1/3-1/4 of the top open, or leaving a 1" strip at the back of the lid with no foil. Keep in mind you need fresh air getting into the tub, because chances are you are going to be misting like crazy to keep the humidity up. If you are misting regularly, you need to ensure there is enough fresh air flow, otherwise the air starts to get stagnant, with "dead spots" in the cage, and it makes it much easier for bacteria to build up.

3) Change your black light bulb out. You want either a CHE (Ceramic heat emitter) or an Infrared heat lamp, with a dimmer. You must get a dimmer for your heat lamp so you can manually control the ambient temps. The way I have my glass tank setup is: I have an infrared light smack dab in the center of the lid. My UTH is on the warm side under the warm hide. I use a 60 Watt bulb and have no problem reaching 77-78 on the cool side, even at night. Anything over 75 is okay.

4) Your thermostat and thermometer probe placements are wrong. Keep only a 1/2" of substrate over your UTH. Here's how your probes should be set up:

Accurite: Put the actual accurite on the cool side, and string the probe UNDER the substrate onto the warm side. Use a bit of hot glue to secure the probe, directly in the center above the UTH, above the glass. Now you have a way to measure the HOTTEST temperature your snake can reach. Keep in mind ball pythons are burrowing creatures. I frequently find my snake burrowed under the substrate and touching the glass, but I know its completely safe because my thermostat doesnt let the UTH go above 92.

Thermostat: Put the thermoSTAT probe between your UTH and the bottom of the glass. The thermostat probe will measure the temperature of your UTH, and quite frequently, the temperature that you set on your thermostat will be higher than the temperature you want. But that is completely normal. For example, in order to hit 92 on my hot spot, I set my herpstat thermostat to 94. When my tank was in a colder room, I had to set it to 97 to reach 92. So you want it to be (from top to bottom): Substrate - Accurite thermometer probe - glass - thermostat probe - UTH

Good luck! You also may want to provide a bit more ground cover. By the looks of those hides, your snake is a bit small for that cage. you could really make it feel more secure by "blacking out" three sides (this can be done if you insulate with corrugated cardboard too), as well as providing more ground cover (such as fake plants or crumpled newspaper)

Yea thinner layer for sure and insulate the back and sides at least of the tank. WOW told you to use the whole bag wow, about an inch of substrate is good. Some people just use paper towels.

Thank you so much for all the suggestions!

So heres what im going to do:
- return my zilla thermostat and get a better one (herostat)
- reduce my substrate level or switch to paper towels
- foil wrap my lid
- get different lighting. (CHE, dimmer, etc)
- change probes location

Much appreciated help and ill keep everyone updated. Happy Thanksgiving Everyone! :)

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Originally Posted by mattchibi

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Accurite: Put the actual accurite on the cool side, and string the probe UNDER the substrate onto the warm side. Use a bit of hot glue to secure the probe, directly in the center above the UTH, above the glass. Now you have a way to measure the HOTTEST temperature your snake can reach. Keep in mind ball pythons are burrowing creatures. I frequently find my snake burrowed under the substrate and touching the glass, but I know its completely safe because my thermostat doesnt let the UTH go above 92.

Thermostat: Put the thermoSTAT probe between your UTH and the bottom of the glass. The thermostat probe will measure the temperature of your UTH, and quite frequently, the temperature that you set on your thermostat will be higher than the temperature you want. But that is completely normal. For example, in order to hit 92 on my hot spot, I set my herpstat thermostat to 94. When my tank was in a colder room, I had to set it to 97 to reach 92. So you want it to be (from top to bottom): Substrate - Accurite thermometer probe - glass - thermostat probe - UTH

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I have my acurite probe on the left (centered in middle of UTH)
Is my thermostat probe in the right location? I read you place it under the tank? I tried that and the probe is too big to fit under the small gap under the tank
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...w/94954830.jpg

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Originally Posted by jackiechan

I tried that and the probe is too big to fit under the small gap under the tank

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Do you have some sort of rubber stopper type things making a gap between the surface and the tank?

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Originally Posted by CatandDiallo

Do you have some sort of rubber stopper type things making a gap between the surface and the tank?

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yes. There were 4 small rubber pieces that came with the UTH.

Small update:
- Foil wrapped my lid and left a 1'' opening in the back for fresh air flow and a cut out for the lamp. Is a heat bulb different from my black light bulb?
- Placed the the acu rite probe directly on top of the UTH on the glass. Acurite device is now on left side (cool) reading the UTH (right side)
- removed a LOT of substrate. Now only about 1'' of substrate.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y13...w/40bd5937.jpg

Im still using my thermostat at the moment because if i dont, the UTH heats up to a crazy 140+! so my zilla thermostat is currently bringing that down. The picture shows 113 but its gone down to 99 since ive been typing this update.

I actually have two UTH because I had the same problem. Only, one is on the bottom and one is on the side. My tank is fiberglass, so the heat transfers "gently." I waited for the side heater to get as hot as it gets before putting my snake in and felt the wall it is on with my own hand to make sure it wasn't searing hot. It wasn't, just a very gentle, comforting warm spot. I see my snake curled up touching that wall a lot, it must feel really good.

Ok Ill try to explain this best I can :). First goto the hardware store and buy larger rubber feet for your tanks (about $5) also get some foil tape if you dont already have it. Attach the larger rubber feat to your tank and tape the T-stat probe to the bottom of the heatpad under the tank. Adjust the T-stat temp till you get to about 95 on the inside of the glass use a thinner layer of substrate I like to about the first knuckle on your finger little less than 1/2 an inch or so. Switch to a CHE on a dimmer (available at Homedepot here ) Then I cover 3 sides of my tanks with foil tape covered cardboard or foam insulation and use the foil tape on the outside of the screen top looks kinda like this. As you can see this allows me to keep my temps and humidity very well this pic was taken early in the morning to room temps were about 68f and warms up as the day goes on to about 73f temp in the tanks hits a low of 78 and a high of 83. Hope this help if I can ever get around to it Ill post about how I insulated the tank and made the screen topper:) Hope this helps it works great for me :D I am using 11inch flexwatt and a 60watt CHE on a dimmer for heat

If u insulate the bottom of the tank than how would the heat get in from the uth

Hi,

Because the insulation is on the outside of the UTH not the inside?


dr del

Lol that makes perfect sense.. Im srry.. Had a slow moment there

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CatandDiallo

I'm surprised no one mentioned this yet. The thermostat probe should be directly touching the heat source. I.e, the probe should have been placed on the bottom of the tank, with the heat source taped ON TOP or it, or you can use tape (aluminium tape works best) to tape your thermostat probe on top of the heat source.

The thermometer probe should be right above (or just a tiny thin layer below) the substrate.

Other then that, I was going to suggest thinning out (A LOT) of your substrate, but someone has already mentioned this.

Good luck.

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This is absolutely correct, your t-stat probe should sit in the tank, directly on top of your heat source, the reason for this is your Bp, will borrow into the substrate to get closer to the heat, and if your temp above the substrate is 95 then guarantee the temp on the glass is higher, this can cause burns as Bps aren't that sensitive to the heat where burns are concerned and will not move in time to prevent serious burn.

Worst case scenario--buy some foam insulation board, cut it to fit, and cover 3 sides of your tank with it, leaving only the top, bottom, and front exposed.

Glass tanks simply aren't the best choice when it comes to housing many reptiles, but unfortunately many people wind up with them because they are relatively cheap, and pet stores have little else (if anything).

Had a quick question about UTH and mounting the thermostat probe. I already have my UTH installed, and you can't exactly take it off now to mount the probe. I'll be getting my herpstat next week and wondered how to get it between the UTH and the tank without wrecking my UTH.

Dont take the UTH off the tank I just tape the T-Stat probe to the middle of my UTH with foil tape and take my temps on the glass inside the tank. Adjust the T-stat till you gety the desired temp. Mine is set at 97 and I get a constant 94.5 on the glass inside the tank but yours will be different. Start by setting it at 93-95 and see what you get raise and lower the temp untill you get the desired inside tank temp your snake needs. I would never but a thermostat probe anywhere it could get wet or moved as this could casue the T-stat to turn up the heat and overheat you enclosure or burn your snake :)

Thanks, I have an Exo UTH so peeling it off would wreck it for sure.

I have pick up some digital from Walmart for 8.95 that do both Temp and Humidity thanks to some Breeders Friends of Mine I put at least 2 one on each side of my tanks and some time 3 This has made a big diffence for me, the pet shop Dials cost about the same and suck. I mist 2 times a day, but thinking about plex glass for half the screen with holes to try and help with the Humidity, it was someone thought to me for my Blood how is trying to shed.

Just some thought for you, I am no expert, just trying to give some help.

Terrance