Wild mice

My question is not whether or not it is safe to feed a wild mouse a ball python. They eat wild mice/rats in the wild. Yes I know they could get into poison etc. I appreciate your concern but please, as I said whether it's okay to feed a ball python a wild mouse because of poison etc is not my question. However I do have other concerns that I would like addressed. Also please don't just read the title and post. I just caught a mouse outside in the feed tub with a deli cup. He's about the size of an 18 day old rat pup. This is one of the mice that frequently gets into our feed. They always get into the feed every night and sometimes during the day too so I know they don't go far with a regular source of food which is why i'm not worried about poison. I have not done anything about this because they don't eat very much and I have a picky eater that seems to prefer mice and i've been trying to catch one. He hasn't eaten in about a month because though i've been offering baby rats he doesn't seem interested. I figured he was only interested in rodents that are alert and moving because he's eaten a small rat. But maybe he just prefers mice because I never had him turn down a mouse. Can I feed him this wild mouse live? Because he's never eaten anything but live. I put the deli cup in the tank, and the mouse seemed more or less frozen from fright so I don't know if he would even get close enough for a strike. Any thoughts?

Unless you want to risk parasites, which wild rodents often carry, I wouldn't personally do it...poison would be the least of my worries...

I personally wouldn't do it. You don't know what diseases or bugs that mouse is carrying. I wouldn't want to risk spreading anything to my pets if I can avoid it.

In the end, it is your call. I would just rather get some live mice from a feeder breeder.

I'm not going to lie, I really don't know weather it's safe or not but my friend once caught a wild mouse and fed it to his king-snake. The snake died within the next day or two.

I wouldn't try it.

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Originally Posted by SkYyame

I'm not going to lie, I really don't know weather it's safe or not but my friend once caught a wild mouse and fed it to his king-snake. The snake died within the next day or two.

I wouldn't try it.

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I've caught a few before, I fed my female a few of the same wild mice that get into the feed without any problems whatsoever. No parasites. Since i've had my scale and been weighing her she seems to gain about 20 grams every week. But then again the ones I fed her were frozen first. So should I try F/T then? At the least I could feed it to her if he won't take it along with two more rat pups.

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Originally Posted by evan385

I've caught a few before, I fed my female a few of the same wild mice that get into the feed without any problems whatsoever. No parasites. Since i've had my scale and been weighing her she seems to gain about 20 grams every week.

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My seemingly healthy normal male had hookworms when I got him. No signs or symptoms, only did a random fecal test and it came back positive. Not all parasites show signs. Unless you have fecals done regularly after feeding these wild mice then you can't really know for sure. Again, it's going to be up to you in the end, however you should be aware that wild rodents carry parasites.

yes, they eat wild mice/rats in the wild, and have from the day that they were born.
*i might be talking out of my ass here* but it seems to me that they (the wild ones) probabaly have imunities to deseases that your captive bread snake might not... think of when the europeans came to america (the name we call it today)..
they brought deseases and stuff that theirimune system could handle, but it wiped out thousands that werent use to it.
spooky

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Originally Posted by LGray23

My seemingly healthy normal male had hookworms when I got him. No signs or symptoms, only did a random fecal test and it came back positive. Not all parasites show signs. Unless you have fecals done regularly after feeding these wild mice then you can't really know for sure. Again, it's going to be up to you in the end, however you should be aware that wild rodents carry parasites.

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Wouldn't freezing them kill off the parasites? Parasites need a live host. That being said I would have to assume that freezing the mouse would kill off the parasites.

No. Don't do it.

You don't know what the mouse could have eaten, or could be carrying. Not only do you risk the safety of your pet, but also the safety of yourself. The mouse could have eaten poison for all you know, and you could be introducing that poison into your snake's system.

It's best to stick with domestic mice.

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Originally Posted by evan385

Wouldn't freezing them kill off the parasites? Parasites need a live host. That being said I would have to assume that freezing the mouse would kill off the parasites.

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They have to be frozen for a certain amount of hours before they could be "deemed" safe, and I'm sure the amount of time varies for each parasite. I've heard 18 hours, but who knows, there could be parasites that can survive that. I understand what your saying, just throwing out my opinion. It wasn't cheap to get rid of my normal males hookworms and it was difficult to medicate, and IMO it's not worth the "free" food, because it might not end up being free in the end.

Like Gray said, how do you KNOW it doesn't have parasites? Are you doing fecals? Not just a single fecal test but multiple ones weeks apart.
I am going to go ahead and make a blanket statement that all wild animals carry one parasite or another, the parasite usually never causes a problem until the immune system drops and then the parasites may be noticed.

You have said you already did it before so why ask now? It's up to you, but I value my animals more than to take that unnecessary risk.

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Originally Posted by aldebono

Like Gray said, how do you KNOW it doesn't have parasites? Are you doing fecals? Not just a single fecal test but multiple ones weeks apart.
I am going to go ahead and make a blanket statement that all wild animals carry one parasite or another, the parasite usually never causes a problem until the immune system drops and then the parasites may be noticed.

You have said you already did it before so why ask now? It's up to you, but I value my animals more than to take that unnecessary risk.

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I've actually heard from a few hunters of squirrels that you can't eat squirrel during spring/summer because they have worms and other parasites. But once fall/early winter hits and it gets to freezing temperatures at night the worms and parasites die off from the cold. Would this be true for wild mice too? Also I only fed her wild mice that had been in the freezer for more than 24 hours.

im looking at the replies here,,, and everyone has said they wouldent do it...
are you looking for a yes?
spooky

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Originally Posted by evan385

Can I feed him this wild mouse live? Because he's never eaten anything but live.

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If the point of this post was to ask if you could feed the mouse live, then freezing to kill parasites is a moot point. If you're going to take the risk of feeding a wild caught rodent to your snake, then you have to accept the risk of what you could be exposing your pet to also. It is very possible, even likely, that the wild mouse is carrying parasites. It is possible that freezing it off would kill the parasites, but you'd be left in the same situation, with a F/T rodent and a hungry snake...

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

im looking at the replies here,,, and everyone has said they wouldent do it...
are you looking for a yes?
spooky

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I didn't ask whether I should do it or not. I'm going to, my question was more like should I feed it live because I know he'll eat it or freeze it to be sure any parasites are killed off. It has been below 32F several nights in a row so i'm not really that worried about parasites.

Well fecals will run you anywhere from $15-$35 if a vet will do them local, sometimes you have to get them shipped overnight if you don't have a local vet that will do it. Then you will be sending out another fecal in 3 weeks because they may or may not be detected the first time around. Generally a record of 3 clean fecals means you have a healthy animal so that is going to range from $45-$105 for a local vet or about $69-$126 to ship them out.

I have no idea what meds would cost.

OR you could get a vet to do a autopsy on the mice to see if they have parasites. I hear that's expensive too.

Well hell if I had a car I would just drive to Knoxville and buy some live mice, but I don't. I just want him to eat..

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Originally Posted by evan385

I didn't ask whether I should do it or not. I'm going to, my question was more like should I feed it live because I know he'll eat it or freeze it to be sure any parasites are killed off. It has been below 32F several nights in a row so i'm not really that worried about parasites.

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Make sure you save your pennies for the vet bill... Why do you even bother posting questions and asking for advice? I consistently see you ask for advice, then disregard what everyone has told you. You already knew you were going to feed this wild caught mouse to your bp, so why did you bother to come ask if it was safe? We've all told you that no, it's not "safe" and we have told you why, yet you are going to ignore what we've told you and do it anyway... I don't get it...

Oh well, I'm sure there will be other people who will continue to try, but I won't waste my time and efforts anymore...

Here, since this is what you wanted... YES, it's perfectly fine to feed that mouse to your snake... Don't worry about what all these other people have said. They're just paranoid and don't know nearly as much YOU do, so ignore all of the answers you've been given and SHOW EVERYONE HOW WRONG THEY WERE!!!

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Originally Posted by evan385

I've actually heard from a few hunters of squirrels that you can't eat squirrel during spring/summer because they have worms and other parasites. But once fall/early winter hits and it gets to freezing temperatures at night the worms and parasites die off from the cold. Would this be true for wild mice too? Also I only fed her wild mice that had been in the freezer for more than 24 hours.

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Originally Posted by evan385

I didn't ask whether I should do it or not. I'm going to, my question was more like should I feed it live because I know he'll eat it or freeze it to be sure any parasites are killed off. It has been below 32F several nights in a row so i'm not really that worried about parasites.

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Sorry but that's is incorrect info and a false sense of security. The parasites inside a living mammal will survive just fine when the outside temps drop.

Many toxins will be unaffected by freezing and there are diseases and parasites that can also survive for considerable periods of time below zero (usually in the egg stage ).

http://www.popularpets.net/snakes/di...homoniasis.php

http://www.perfectpet.net/faqs.html

http://www.reptilebuzz.com/caresheet...-mice-rats.php


But, since you don't want our advice, I'll just ignore the fact you are intentionally playing russian roulette with your snakes health and assume you also eat crap from the dumpster as your main diet.

Feed your snake a meal from a clean, healthy supply. Everone else has had these ideas before and there is a very compelling set of reasons you don't find the hobby as a whole running around with moustraps. :rolleyes:

Meh, fine i'll just let him go hungry until the rat pups are big enough to interest him. After that he should be slamming them down. The evidence is overwhelming that this would be at my own risk and i'd rather just not take the risk and have to pay a vet bill later. As much as I want him to eat, a parasite would be much more damaging to his health than waiting another week or two for the rat pups to grow. Thanks everyone.

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Originally Posted by evan385

Well hell if I had a car I would just drive to Knoxville and buy some live mice, but I don't. I just want him to eat..

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what area do you live in in knoxville? i use to live there, and might be able to point you to a few places that have live,,,, otherwise, i would thank that in the next 4 or 5 days, you would be around somewhere that has feeders.
spooky

I could go to Critter Barn, they've always been great and i've done a lot of business with them. I just got a job so as soon as I get a car i'm getting rid of my rats and going back to Critter Barn. I thought that all parasites would be killed off by freezing for more than 24 hours so I was going to try that. Seeing as that's not the case i'll just wait another week or two for the rat pups to grow rather than risk a parasite and a vet bill. Also (not to you, someone else) to say that I disregard everyone else's opinion on all of my posts is completely asinine.

This thread has served it's purpose. I'm gonna wait on the rat pups to grow. Please close :)

evan385 you have become a bit defensive, no body is trying to make you feel this way. The question is a valid one, and the reasons understandable. The point is figure all wild caught rodents carry parasites and figure that to be 100% certain all cysts and ovum are killed you need 30 days at 19.4ºF. That only leaves the possibility of other things aside from poison things like oils, antifreeze ect. Add virus into the mix and it becomes less certain again. These are good reasons why it is not a very good risk.

It looks like you will have 4 snakes soon? I'd suggest that it might be a good idea to check out the get many rodent breeders whom ship frozen rodents to you. It is likely you will save money and not be so reliant on a store for supply. Some of the large breeders claim a pinky rat is born every second of every day they have huge output and rarely if ever run out. This way you are only relining on your self to ensure you don't run out.

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

yes, they eat wild mice/rats in the wild, and have from the day that they were born.
*i might be talking out of my ass here* but it seems to me that they (the wild ones) probabaly have imunities to deseases that your captive bread snake might not... think of when the europeans came to america (the name we call it today)..
they brought deseases and stuff that theirimune system could handle, but it wiped out thousands that werent use to it.
spooky

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Wild animals are rarely "healthy." Wild animals have drastically lower life spans than those kept in captivity. Some of this is from predators but parasites and other illness is a real issue as well. Wild animals have intestinal parasites, ticks, and mites and they live with them. Parasites have not evolved to kill their hosts. They live with you causing issues that you can live with.

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Originally Posted by evan385

I didn't ask whether I should do it or not. I'm going to, my question was more like should I feed it live because I know he'll eat it or freeze it to be sure any parasites are killed off. It has been below 32F several nights in a row so i'm not really that worried about parasites.

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There is a flaw in your logic. You said you found a live mouse. Mice are mammals. Mammals are warm blooded. When its 32F outside its nice and warm in a mouses belly. Parasites are not killed off by cold weather unless the host animal is killed.

Ya it's just yucky. Even if any of my feeder mice escape. And yep they escape occasionally. As soon as I find and catch them they are immediately put down and tossed in the trash. I wouldnt risk it.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

To the OP....
I know a guy that is a professional rat and mouse breeder (he paid for his rodent breeding facilities with what he made selling them, and even has his own brand of rodent block custom blended and bagged). He does ship them all over the US. He is in Indiana, and I'm sure Knoxville shipping wouldn't be horrible. Just have them shipped to you until you get your car.
PM me and I'll give you his contact info.
Or there is always the big name places (rodent pro, mouse factory, big cheese rodents etc....just do a google search.)
Shipping would more than likely be cheaper than a vet bill.

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Originally Posted by mikeandsheleen

To the OP....
I know a guy that is a professional rat and mouse breeder (he paid for his rodent breeding facilities with what he made selling them, and even has his own brand of rodent block custom blended and bagged). He does ship them all over the US. He is in Indiana, and I'm sure Knoxville shipping wouldn't be horrible. Just have them shipped to you until you get your car.
PM me and I'll give you his contact info.
Or there is always the big name places (rodent pro, mouse factory, big cheese rodents etc....just do a google search.)
Shipping would more than likely be cheaper than a vet bill.

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see,,, thats the beeoch,,,,,, S&H will eat you up..... i do a 6 month stock when i order my F/T's.... shipping usually cost as much, or more than the order. dont know if it makes a difference, but i order for 26 snakes.... maby 5 or less would come out better.. next time, ill be finding a breeder, and driving there. ever if its 200$$ in gass,, ill be coming out better in shipping.. id be getting more feeders for the price of 4 or 5 pieces of dried ice................
spooky

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

see,,, thats the beeoch,,,,,, S&H will eat you up..... i do a 6 month stock when i order my F/T's.... shipping usually cost as much, or more than the order. dont know if it makes a difference, but i order for 26 snakes.... maby 5 or less would come out better.. next time, ill be finding a breeder, and driving there. ever if its 200$$ in gass,, ill be coming out better in shipping.. id be getting more feeders for the price of 4 or 5 pieces of dried ice................
spooky

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I guess thats where I'm lucky...I just drive 10 minutes to pick them up, and I don't have that many bp's to feed.

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Originally Posted by aldebono

Well fecals will run you anywhere from $15-$35 if a vet will do them local, sometimes you have to get them shipped overnight if you don't have a local vet that will do it. Then you will be sending out another fecal in 3 weeks because they may or may not be detected the first time around. Generally a record of 3 clean fecals means you have a healthy animal so that is going to range from $45-$105 for a local vet or about $69-$126 to ship them out.

I have no idea what meds would cost.

OR you could get a vet to do a autopsy on the mice to see if they have parasites. I hear that's expensive too.

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I want your vet. :( or better yet this vet... fecals here cost anywhere from 150-200 APIECE.... and they're done on sight...

Now I stopped at this post, so don't ring me okay? I wouldn't do it. You knows a chefs worst nightmare? Not salmonella..... not e. Coli.... Botulism... snakes have salmonella in there body already, but why chance other parasites that mice and even eats can carry? What your snake eats is up to you, don't ring me... I know a retic Owner that use to breed cats and even dogs to feed his retic. Do I agree? No. Absolutely not. But it is all up to you! Whatever you choose. Best of luck to you!

I dun said that i'm gonna wait for the rat pups to grow more. They already have their eyes open. And if I have to i'll just assist feed him. Posting after only reading the first post is something else I do not appreciate.

shew,,,, we do fecals on here at home, ,on sight. i know whats in my animals...
spooky

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Originally Posted by evan385

I dun said that i'm gonna wait for the rat pups to grow more. They already have their eyes open. And if I have to i'll just assist feed him. Posting after only reading the first post is something else I do not appreciate.

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chill out dude,

probabally no need to assist feed, if there hungry,, they will eat it.
iv went through your previous post, and you seem to be very enthused about your snakes.. thats a good thing!!!!!!!!!
but bottom line,, as long as you give them the prope husbandry, ie. temps/humidy/hides,, and that stuff,, they will probabally take care of the rest..
*again,, i might be talking outta my arse* but i dunno..................
spooky

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Originally Posted by evan385

I dun said that i'm gonna wait for the rat pups to grow more. They already have their eyes open. And if I have to i'll just assist feed him. Posting after only reading the first post is something else I do not appreciate.

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Unavoidable on forums I'm afraid. Eventually people realise and let the threads die.

Try not to take it personally in the meantime. :)


dr del

I mean if I really have to i'll assist feed. If I have no other option and I still can't get live mice. If he starts losing weight I will assist feed.

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Originally Posted by evan385

Wouldn't freezing them kill off the parasites? Parasites need a live host. That being said I would have to assume that freezing the mouse would kill off the parasites.

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If freezing flesh of any kind killed off parasites then you would not have to make sure meats such as chicken or hamburger reach a temperature which all parasites are destroyed. Beef is 155 and chicken 165. It is also the reason you must boil untreated water. Believe me that freezing something does not kill parasites. Look it up if you do not believe me.

The main issue is that some of the parasite eggs and larva can survive the freezing process so just better safe than sorry imo. It's just not worth the risk if you can avoid it.

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Originally Posted by dr del

Unavoidable on forums I'm afraid. Eventually people realise and let the threads die.

Try not to take it personally in the meantime. :)


dr del

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:bow::bow:

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Originally Posted by evan385

I've actually heard from a few hunters of squirrels that you can't eat squirrel during spring/summer because they have worms and other parasites. But once fall/early winter hits and it gets to freezing temperatures at night the worms and parasites die off from the cold. Would this be true for wild mice too? Also I only fed her wild mice that had been in the freezer for more than 24 hours.

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The reason you don't eat spring/summer squirrels is warbles....the huge maggot offspring of the Bot Fly which burrows into the animal's skin and feeds upon it until it's mature, whereupon it pupates, hatches out and flies away.

Trust me, if you'd ever seen a warble-infested squirrel, you'd never eat any wild game again.

[and you can't even imagine what a huge warble in a tiny wild mouse looks like]

Squirrels [and all other wild mammals] carry ectoparasites year-round.
They stay warm and the ticks, fleas and mites are perfectly happy living in their fur.
Endoparasites couldn't care less what the weather is....they live inside a nice, toasty host.

The resident Hillbilly,

Salamander

I'm not if its been ask or not, but what is your method of feeding this snake?
do you offer the food and set there with the lights on watching it? Do you leave the food in over night?
with my babies, I had some that hit F\T the first time I offered, and some that didn't, but regardless, after I I feed them, I turn out the lights, pull a towel over the hatchling rack and leave them alone! I fed lazt night, and I had one that didn't eat (this one has been picky). This morning, I checked them and it was the only one that didn't eat, so I got the F/T out, put it in a sandwich bag and held it under HOT HOT water, and offered it again. It struck it, so I immediately pulled the towel ovev the rack to make it dark again. About 30 min. Later, I peeked in and it had ate.. So back to the question,, how are you feeding?
spooky

Ivan has only ever eaten live, but i'm going to try to get him on F/T. Captain Hook will eat anything live, P/K, F/T, rats, mice, gerbils she doesn't care what it is she's never refused a meal as long as she's not in blue. But I prefer to feed her live if I have it because I know that she'll eat anything. Once I get Ivan on F/T he'll be on that for a long time because one live mouse could reset it. And I breed rats. But when I get a car I will be switching back to F/T from Critter Barn because it's just too nasty and my mother complains about having to care for three rat tanks while i'm gone. Unless I can come across the ASFs I will not be breeding rats anymore. Then again it only cost me $15 for food and bedding for three rat tanks (two mothers and babies, the male, the feeders) to produce little over 20 babies. Anyways I turn the lights out, the light from the bulb is enough for me to see. With Ivan, while he may have a taste for mice he has eaten a small rat. But this rat was at least twice his girth and he took forever before he struck it so maybe a smaller one would work. I think it just has to be very alert and moving a lot for him to be interested. Should be another week or less before the rat pups are hopping. If all else fails i'll use (not feed) one of the wild mice (after freezing to kill off external parasites) to scent a rat pup. If that doesn't work and he starts losing weight because there's no way for me to get a live mouse, I will assist feed.

by the way evan i like your coming soons, bees are my favorite ball pythons.

and lol you feed them gerbils sometimes? i have no problems with it but i was wondering why...

That was when I had mice and couldn't get them to breed. I found gerbils on craigslist bought the fourteen that were left. Guy didn't care if they were snake food. Traded the twelve I had left for two adult female rats, a male, and 8 small rats for feeders almost two months ago and now I have 20+ nineteen day old rat pups. Also yeah I love bumble bees, i'm getting a make your own combo from Don for what will be $280 after shipping. Well after I get a car. But I may get impatient and say forget the car I want them and I can ride my bike to work! Cause I have enough for them right now. But...it will only take me about a month before I have enough for a cheap car and my snakes :)

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Originally Posted by evan385

Unless I can come across the ASFs I will not be breeding rats anymore.

If all else fails i'll use (not feed) one of the wild mice (after freezing to kill off external parasites) to scent a rat pup. If that doesn't work and he starts losing weight because there's no way for me to get a live mouse, I will assist feed.

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We breed ASF as well. To warn you they are far nastier than rats if you're going to breed them. I think they smell even worse than mice. They also have quite a bit of attitude. They are definitely better than mice as feeders, but they really don't get very big. A large retired breeder ASF will be about the same size of a weanling/small rat. Great for picky eaters or getting hatchlings started, but I really hate these nasty things.

I have to strongly recommend you don't even use the wild mouse for scenting purposes. I wouldn't risk it. If it absolutely comes to assist feeding, I would take it to someone experienced with assist feeding. This is very stressful on them and you can easily harm your snake if you do it wrong.

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Originally Posted by AK907

We breed ASF as well. To warn you they are far nastier than rats if you're going to breed them. I think they smell even worse than mice. They also have quite a bit of attitude. They are definitely better than mice as feeders, but they really don't get very big. A large retired breeder ASF will be about the same size of a weanling/small rat. Great for picky eaters or getting hatchlings started, but I really hate these nasty things.

I have to strongly recommend you don't even use the wild mouse for scenting purposes. I wouldn't risk it. If it absolutely comes to assist feeding, I would take it to someone experienced with assist feeding. This is very stressful on them and you can easily harm your snake if you do it wrong.

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If I could take him to someone for assist feeding I could get a live mouse. Even if they are more nasty than mice i've heard they're a lot less nasty/smelly than domestic rats. I've watched several videos from youtube and snakebytestv and I think I could try it if I had to. The only problem with ASFs is that they grow so slow and my female would eat an adult ASF. Guess I could feed more than one, they do have larger litters. Maybe i'll just build a rat rack. What kind of tubs should I use for this? Anyone have details on how to build one? My mother complains about too many rat tanks to clean. With ASFs I have a 75 gallon (4x2x2) that I could keep them all in, I had 14 gerbils (about same size) in it with plenty of extra space.

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Originally Posted by evan385

If I could take him to someone for assist feeding I could get a live mouse. Even if they are more nasty than mice i've heard they're a lot less nasty/smelly than domestic rats. I've watched several videos from youtube and snakebytestv and I think I could try it if I had to. The only problem with ASFs is that they grow so slow and my female would eat an adult ASF. Guess I could feed more than one, they do have larger litters. Maybe i'll just build a rat rack. What kind of tubs should I use for this? Anyone have details on how to build one? My mother complains about too many rat tanks to clean. With ASFs I have a 75 gallon (4x2x2) that I could keep them all in, I had 14 gerbils (about same size) in it with plenty of extra space.

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You walk into our rat room and what you smell isn't the domestic/norway rats. You smell the ASF! They are VERY smelly compared to rats. We have to clean their tubs twice as often as the rats. Mice smell horrible too. Litter size varies. Sometimes you will get 17 in a litter. Sometimes you might only get 5. Our ASF's average about 12, which is on par with our normal rats. They do grow rather slow.

Racks are the only way to go if you're keeping large numbers of rats, but seeing as you only have a couple snakes, it might not be worthwhile. You'll be overrun with feeders. Tubs are a LOT easier to clean than tanks, though. I can give ya some measurements/parts list on ours if you need. A 4 tub rack takes about an hour or so to build and costs about $50.

Might I ask why feeders are so hard to come by? Where in the world do you live? I've lived in some pretty remote places and there was always somewhere within driving distance that carried mice. Every pet store I've ever been to carried mice.

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Originally Posted by evan385

I've caught a few before, I fed my female a few of the same wild mice that get into the feed without any problems whatsoever. No parasites. Since i've had my scale and been weighing her she seems to gain about 20 grams every week. But then again the ones I fed her were frozen first. So should I try F/T then? At the least I could feed it to her if he won't take it along with two more rat pups.

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I wouldnt...its just not worth the risk.

Just because you cant SEE a parasite doesnt mean its not there...think of all the worm species that live in digestion tracts to just name one...