Not good.

I took my pastel BP into the vet on Nov 3 for a possible RI that was confirmed. Well, yesterday she went to the bathroom and her urates were orange and crystal-y so I called the vet, who was concerned about possible kidney issues. She's going in for blood work today. I am really worried about her, has anyone else had a similar issue?

Just got back from the vet, and they didn't get enough blood from her to do a kidney analysis test, but they did get enough to do blood slides. They wanted to get a sample from her heart, but I said no because there was a good chance that she could die from the procedure.

As far as the color and the crystals on the urates go, the vet had no idea, and neither did her boss. They want to do more bloodwork eventually to determine if there are liver or kidney problems. I am really upset right now, and my worst fears are that she could die, or that she would be miserable and in pain to the point where putting her to sleep would be an option.

I'm so sorry, I really wish I could help you. I wish you and her the best of luck though :tears:

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Originally Posted by carlisleishere

Just got back from the vet, and they didn't get enough blood from her to do a kidney analysis test, but they did get enough to do blood slides. They wanted to get a sample from her heart, but I said no because there was a good chance that she could die from the procedure.

As far as the color and the crystals on the urates go, the vet had no idea, and neither did her boss. They want to do more bloodwork eventually to determine if there are liver or kidney problems. I am really upset right now, and my worst fears are that she could die, or that she would be miserable and in pain to the point where putting her to sleep would be an option.

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You mentioned an RI - what medication was she treated with?

I hope that everything pans out and that she gets better. Good luck!

So sorry to hear about your BP's health, and wishing you the best outcome with it.

Did the vet start any type of antibiotic regimen for the RI?

I rescued a normal girl a little over a year ago that was in poor health (Low weight, severe RI, and extremely unhappy/snappy). I immediately took her to the vet, and got started on a pretty heavy Antibiotic regimen (Both weekly shots and a daily oral suspension). I did notice some discoloration in the feces and urates during the first couple weeks. I and the vet attributed this to the antibiotics. The antibiotics can take a toll on the liver. We never took blood, nor would I allow a vet to draw from my balls heart; however, they did have me bring in a stool sample.

I am sure that you know and have been told, but to help wipe this RI out, increase the hot spot to around 95 degrees (If you have a large enclosure, go for 100 degrees with a good temperature gradient); however, make sure you have a cool side temp of no less than 80 degrees. If you are doing antibiotics, it is a good idea to bathe your BP every night for 20 minutes in a warm bath (Not hot, but about the temperature you would bathe a child). This will help with dehydration from the Antibiotics. Lastly, keep the enclosure as clean as possible.

It will take time, as RI's can be very difficult to get rid of; however, keep at it, and stay strong. It took about 5-6 months, but my girl is now RI free, 700+ grams heavier, eating like a cow, happy, and healthy as ever.

I am sure yours will come around too. Best of Luck!

Yes, I forgot to mention that in my posts. She has been given 0.07 ml of ceftazidime via injection every 3 days. I have been soaking her daily , but she is still dehydrated. The water temp has been 80F for soaking, and soaking has lasted 1/2 hour per soak. Temps are slightly increased to 93 hot end and remain at 80 on cool end. Her feces were normal but her shed was in shreds. It all came off, just in shreds despite elevated humidity and soakings.

If you do an image search on kidney stones, that is what the outer coating on the urate looked like.

She has also been quarantined from my other animals when I first noticed symptoms on Nov 1.

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Originally Posted by carlisleishere

Yes, I forgot to mention that in my posts. She has been given 0.07 ml of ceftazidime via injection every 3 days. I have been soaking her daily , but she is still dehydrated. The water temp has been 80F for soaking, and soaking has lasted 1/2 hour per soak. Temps are slightly increased to 93 hot end and remain at 80 on cool end. Her feces were normal but her shed was in shreds. It all came off, just in shreds despite elevated humidity and soakings.

If you do an image search on kidney stones, that is what the outer coating on the urate looked like.

She has also been quarantined from my other animals when I first noticed symptoms on Nov 1.

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Yep... Pretty much exactly what my girl's looked like too for the first few weeks of Antibiotics... I definitely remember the orange crystalline look. It did go back to more normal even while she was still on antibiotics; however, I remember seeing it a few times (especially during the beginning) during her treatment.

Keep an eye on it, you are on the right track and doing the right thing, but I don't think you need to be too worried about it just yet IMO.

Any others with experience on this?

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Originally Posted by carlisleishere

Yes, I forgot to mention that in my posts. She has been given 0.07 ml of ceftazidime via injection every 3 days. I have been soaking her daily , but she is still dehydrated. The water temp has been 80F for soaking, and soaking has lasted 1/2 hour per soak. Temps are slightly increased to 93 hot end and remain at 80 on cool end. Her feces were normal but her shed was in shreds. It all came off, just in shreds despite elevated humidity and soakings.

If you do an image search on kidney stones, that is what the outer coating on the urate looked like.

She has also been quarantined from my other animals when I first noticed symptoms on Nov 1.

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Sorry took me a few to find my vet records... The shot was the same Fortaz (ceftazidime), and it was every 3 days. The daily oral I was provided was Baytril (Enrofloxacin).

Hope this helps.

Thank you for your input. It makes me feel a lot better knowing that someone else has experienced something similar. :) I'll keep you guys updated on her.

This discoloration of the urates is often a result of antibiotic treatment. Baytril is processed through the kidneys and excreted in urine as is ceftazidime.

I would assume that the vet would already know that...................?

I am glad to hear that someone else has experienced the same thing you are going through and is able to help :)

You are doing great with the snake. Keep it up and I'm sure in a few weeks you will notice a difference in her.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

This discoloration of the urates is often a result of antibiotic treatment. Baytril is processed through the kidneys and excreted in urine as is ceftazidime.

I would assume that the vet would already know that...................?

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I see your point. I was expecting some sort of change in the urates, but the most concerning thing was the texture. The crystals in the urates was what worried the vet the most. It looked like it was painful to pass.:(

The vet that I'm seeing was recommended to me by the local herp society, and no one has had any complaints about her.

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Originally Posted by carlisleishere

I see your point. I was expecting some sort of change in the urates, but the most concerning thing was the texture. The crystals in the urates was what worried the vet the most. It looked like it was painful to pass.:(

The vet that I'm seeing was recommended to me by the local herp society, and no one has had any complaints about her.

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I'd ask the vet if it makes sense that since not only are both antibiotics processed through the kidneys, but one, maybe both can exacerbate dehydration.

I'm not sure how effective soaking a snake is to relieve dehydration and since soaking is a fairly stressful experience I'd want to make sure there was some benefit before I subjected my animal to it. Some reptiles like chelonians can take in water through the cloaca - I am unsure as to whether or not snakes can do the same. In other words there may be little benefit in tems of addressing dehydration.

If the vet is worried about dehydration, maybe he/she should look into giving them directly into the body cavity via injection................

Good to hear youre getting some help from people here. Its always slightly assuring when someone else has encountered the same problems as you and survived. Best of luck to you and your snake! Let us know how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I'd ask the vet if it makes sense that since not only are both antibiotics processed through the kidneys, but one, maybe both can exacerbate dehydration.

I'm not sure how effective soaking a snake is to relieve dehydration and since soaking is a fairly stressful experience I'd want to make sure there was some benefit before I subjected my animal to it. Some reptiles like chelonians can take in water through the cloaca - I am unsure as to whether or not snakes can do the same. In other words there may be little benefit in tems of addressing dehydration.

If the vet is worried about dehydration, maybe he/she should look into giving them directly into the body cavity via injection................

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My BP is only being given one antibiotic. The vet was looking into giving her injections for the dehydration but decided that I should continue soaking her, as it was helping and would be less stressful than injections. However, if the dehydration continues for an extended period of time fluids may be given at the vets office.

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I am glad to hear that someone else has experienced the same thing you are going through and is able to help

You are doing great with the snake. Keep it up and I'm sure in a few weeks you will notice a difference in her.

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Thank you. :) I think she will get better, and I hope it's soon.

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Good to hear youre getting some help from people here. Its always slightly assuring when someone else has encountered the same problems as you and survived. Best of luck to you and your snake! Let us know how it goes.

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It sure is! I'll keep you guys updated on her for sure. :)

:please: Blessed are you, Lord God, maker of all living creatures. You called forth fish in the sea, birds in the air and animals on the land. You inspired St. Francis to call all of them his brothers and sisters. We ask you to bless this pet. By the power of your love, enable it to live according to your plan. May we always praise you for all your beauty in creation. Blessed are you, Lord our God, in all your creatures! Amen. :please:

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Originally Posted by carlisleishere

Yes, I forgot to mention that in my posts. She has been given 0.07 ml of ceftazidime via injection every 3 days. I have been soaking her daily , but she is still dehydrated. The water temp has been 80F for soaking, and soaking has lasted 1/2 hour per soak. Temps are slightly increased to 93 hot end and remain at 80 on cool end. Her feces were normal but her shed was in shreds. It all came off, just in shreds despite elevated humidity and soakings.

If you do an image search on kidney stones, that is what the outer coating on the urate looked like.

She has also been quarantined from my other animals when I first noticed symptoms on Nov 1.

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You don't happen to live in southern Illinois do you? Our vet face us the same exact medice for OUR pastel. Lol..odd. we were able to get rid of the mouth rot, but the RI we're not sure, he still has mocus and hides a lot. I really hope your snake is able to overcome this, and doesn't have any other problems. It hurts not being able to do anything And not knowing if your snake could die. I really do wish you the best of luck.

EDIT: whoops... didn't see you location...sorry!

Is your snake feeding still? Are you feeding F/T or P/K? If you are not having too many issues with feeding and are feeding dead rodents. You might give thought to either injecting water into the prey item or forcing some down the mouth of the prey (lungs or stomach makes no difference) I have done this with rescues. I have also found that soaking a snake does help a bit not massively but some. (after a soaking urinates had a bunch of liquid as well as solids.) certainly not a definitive answer just personal observations and far from scientific or documented. The stress issue is a big one hard to say I think it would come down to the individual animal.

She refused f/t prey (her usual meal) and the vet said that I shouldn't feed her so that it reduces the stress on her body. The soaking does help some, and now that she shed she may drink some water on her own.

It was just a though my vet usually says to keep feeding if it will take it. It isn't exact and there are still lots of ideas with out backing of fact based on weight of evidence.

Good Luck!
Alex

It's a good idea, it's just that the vet was worried about liver or kidney issues and didn't want to stress these organs any more than they needed to be.

This is just a pic of her soaking last night.

http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/w...i41Ny5qcGc.jpg

You can tell she's not as dehydrated now because she isn't as wrinkly. How does she look to you guys?

That pic does not do her justice. She is a beautiful pastel.

I had an albino spider on Enrofloxacin and her waste looked similar to what you described. After the first week, she started eating more and growing quicker even after her oral dosages. She's such a trooper :)

She looks quite healthy in the pic.

I am still unsure about soaking, I have done so in the past and there seemed to be a increase in urine. I also notice that if the humidity is high for a week the same thing occurs. It is interesting, she looks reasonably calm, do you cover the top with something dark during the soak? I would guess that if she is not super stressed during the soak the benefits would out weigh the downsides.

I just got a call from the vet saying that her blood count is normal. They still want to get more blood to look for liver or kidney issues, but they want to see how her urates look once she goes to the bathroom again.


She is 2/3 the way through her treatment as she just had shot 6 out of 9.

As for soaking, I do cover the top of the container with a dark cover, then turn the lighs off in the room which seems to calm her down. She's not a high-strung snake anyways.

The only thing I found odd today was that the needle was hard to get through her skin because it was a little loose, presumably from dehydration.

I wanted to check back and see how things are going.

I like the pic of the soaking... does look pretty healthy. I am glad the bloodwork came back normal, as well.

You never mentioned any whistling (at least that I remember) with the breathing. Mine had a pretty consistent whistle with her RI, and this did last for some time after the antibiotics were done. It was very stressful, as I wasn't sure if I needed to get her back on meds. There was no more bubbles/discharge, clicking, constant yawning, etc. so I didn't want to risk the stress to the organs of a second round of meds. After reading many posts here I decided not to do another round of meds unless the other signs returned, and just continued the heat and humidity treatment. In the end, the prolonged elevated heat and humidity seemed to knock out the whistle after about 4-5 months.

Keeping your BP in my thoughts.

Just a little update you guys. :)

She seems to be doing well, but she hasn't gone to the bathroom since the strange urate had passed. She does seem more hydrated with the soakings. Her last injection is tomorrow, and after that she has one more check up at the vet. She has lost some weight during treatment, as she has not eaten. I'm hoping that once the injections are done and without being stressed she will start eating again and will gain the weight back.

Thanks!

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You never mentioned any whistling (at least that I remember) with the breathing

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That's why she was brought into the vet. I heard clicking and gurgling sounds coming from her.

I don't know if this means anything, but last night and today her eyes were REALLY dilated. I could hardly see the color. Has anyone seen this?

Yes and no. I have one whom eyes are always a big larger than the others and others that are smaller. Did you check both eyes are the same size and did you change the light to see if they are changing?

Sorry, no help on the eyes... Mine is a normal, so seeing the pupils was not really an option.

Glad to hear she is doing good and nearing the end of her treatment.

Mine did eat once during treatment; however, she did refuse most weeks until a week or two after it was done... Now she will take em as fast as I can get the in front of her... Like she is making up for lost meals :)

One eye was slightly less dilated than normal, but they were both abnormally large. They remained that way even under bright light. I'll check on her again because I'm about to soak her.

Her eyes are still large, but they did constrict slightly when exposed to bright light. They are still not normal sized, but they are better than yesterday. I weighed her too and she is 838 grams. :( She's lost a bit of weight.

I hate to say this but unresponsive pupils is a big issue. I think a vet might be a good idea it maybe a reaction to the drugs.

I'm trying to get her an appointment within a couple days, as soon as my vet has an opening. I told the receptionist that I believe this is an urgent issue. I will keep you guys updated and I hope she's okay.

Also, I've noticed that she's darkened up again, as if she's getting ready to shed. She shouldn't shed for another 2 and a half weeks, do you think this is because of the needles and she's treating it as an injury?

Dont really have many words of wisdom here, but good luck to you and your snake :( It seems like youre handling the situation really well.

Thanks for all the kind thoughts you guys. I really hope everything goes well. I love her just as much as my other pets and I would be devastated if anything happened to her. Every time I think about it it makes me sad. Heck, I'm tearing up right now. :(

I have to keep my hopes up, and I'm thankful for BP.net :)

http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/w...nakes023-1.jpg

So her eyes are still large, but they are a little more responsive than they were yesterday. Also, she's acting very hungry but I'm not sure if it's a good idea to feed her yet. What do you think?

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Is your snake feeding still? Are you feeding F/T or P/K? If you are not having too many issues with feeding and are feeding dead rodents. You might give thought to either injecting water into the prey item or forcing some down the mouth of the prey (lungs or stomach makes no difference) I have done this with rescues. I have also found that soaking a snake does help a bit not massively but some. (after a soaking urinates had a bunch of liquid as well as solids.) certainly not a definitive answer just personal observations and far from scientific or documented. The stress issue is a big one hard to say I think it would come down to the individual animal.

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Good ideas about the rats- the part I bolded however, could increase dehydration. Normally an increase in fluids like this for a short period of time will cause urination but following it can cause dehydration. It is less likely that the snake would gain hydration status enough to pass liquids from soaking, as normally liquids are held on to when dehydrated.

I am not so sure a soaking recommendation is a bad one, but that is probably why the snake shed in shreds. It may still help, as kitedemon suggests, but only temporarily in my opinion. And she may indeed be shedding again due to sickness.

Hope your bp starts doing better soon.

I'm not really worried about her urinating too much, as she has only urinated once in a month, and that was with the strange urates. I was thinking of maybe trying to get her to eat an ASF that was wet, but I'm not too sure about feeding her just yet.

Well, I fed her a small live ASF and she took it! It was quite a remarkable strike too, as she grabbed the ASF by the foot. She's swallowing as we speak.

Her eyes seem to have improved, and she seems much more hydrated than she did last week. She still hasn't gone to the bathroom yet, but we will see. She also has a follow up with the vet on either Tuesday or Wednesday. I think things are looking up! :)

This is great to hear! I was catching up, and hoping that you would try and she would eat for you. I am glad you did. If she is feeding aggressively, she is most likely doing well and on her way to good health.

Your story is almost word for word the experience I had with my rescue just under a year ago. The pupils unfortunately were not something I could easily see. The soaking is absolutely going to lead to bad sheds for a while (at least it did with mine); however, it was a recommendation from my vet that I followed. Once she was better and no longer needed soaking, her sheds have returned to nearly perfect every time.

Thanks for starting this post and keeping us informed. I am sure this will help people in the future going through similar situations.

Love the latest pic... she is looking good!

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Originally Posted by SinCityBPs

This is great to hear! I was catching up, and hoping that you would try and she would eat for you. I am glad you did. If she is feeding aggressively, she is most likely doing well and on her way to good health.

Your story is almost word for word the experience I had with my rescue just under a year ago. The pupils unfortunately were not something I could easily see. The soaking is absolutely going to lead to bad sheds for a while (at least it did with mine); however, it was a recommendation from my vet that I followed. Once she was better and no longer needed soaking, her sheds have returned to nearly perfect every time.

Thanks for starting this post and keeping us informed. I am sure this will help people in the future going through similar situations.

Love the latest pic... she is looking good!

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Thank you for your input on this issue. It really helped me a lot. The pic that I posted was her this past summer. I will post new pics when she's gotten a clean bill of health from the vet.:)

Her vet appointment is on Wednesday, but I couldn't help myself.

Her eyes are looking good.
http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/w...eringue010.jpg
http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/w...eringue009.jpg

She's also looking good.
http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/w...eringue007.jpg

She's the most beautiful pastel I've ever seen in person, and she is a great snake. I'm so happy that she's doing well. :)

Nice! :gj: - She is very good looking

In that first pic, one of the air holes looked to have a little bit of a point to it. If so, try taking a soldering iron to it and smoothing that out a little if possible.

Thanks. I have since removed the little flap of plastic from the airhole.

YES! She went to the bathroom today and I never thought I'd be so happy to see nice WHITE urates. :D Lots of pee too. I think she's going to get a clean bill of health from the vet on Wed. :)

This is great to hear! So happy for you... Best of luck today at the vet. Sounds like it will probably just be a well check at this point. Great Job! :gj:

Just a little update. :)

The vet visit went well, the vet did not hear any more whistles or clicks, so she has a clean bill of health. She will still be seperated from the rest of the collection for a few more months as a precaution. She also took a small f/t that rat on friday without hesitation. Her weight as of today is 957 grams. :)

Thanks for all of your help,
Alana.