Floor temps too high

I recently added some infrared lamps to the top of my enclosure and they work great to get the temps up. However the spot directly under the higher wattage one is pretty hot on the floor. I'm talking like 107. At what point is it too hot for the BP?

First, it seems you are new here so welcome !

Second, take a look at this care sheet, it will answer a lot of your quesitons: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...s%29-Caresheet

Third, you NEED to go to home depot and buy a lamp dimmer so that you can turn your lamp higher and lower, and not necessarily just on/off. 107 F is way too hot for your BP! The hottest point in an enclosure should be 95 F, but I prefer to keep mine around 92-93 F. Would you mind posting pictures or further explaining your setup? In terms of heating, hides, water dishes, size of enclosure and the size of your BP.

Also I have an UTH near this hot spot. Do I really need UTH? If the overhead heat lamps are providing adequate warmth is that enough? Do BPs need "belly heat"? Or is ambient heat good enough.

I would consider the belly heat more far important. You will also need a thermostat for that as well. If anything, ditch the bulb. It will dry out your cage and unless your house is really cold, probably not needed at all. As mattchibi said, read that care sheet.

My lamps both have dimmers built in. I had them adjusted to make the temp in the enclosure 83 on the cool side and 87 on the hot side. The 107 temp is the surface temp, not the ambient air temp. The surface directly beneath the light is always going to be hotter than the rest of the enclosure to some extent.

If I drop the temp to 85 on the hot side it seems the spot on the floor directly beneath the light is 95. So I guess that's pretty good then. If I can't hold this temp stable I guess I'll have to get some sort of thermostat. Hopefully I can buy something and not have to build one.

Now my issue is the hide on the hot side. There is an UTH right underneath. With the light shinning on top is making it too hot. Around 100 if I stick a thermometer probe in there. So I guess I'll just get rid of UTH and stick with the lights.

So belly heat is important then. The problem is the UTH does not do nearly enough to warm the enclosure. Just by its self it barely cracks 70. I even added a second one to the side (not currently in use) and that gets me to around 75.

I'm not concerned about humidity and the bulbs drying things out, humidity is not a problem in my house.

You will want a hot side and a cool side, but do not necessarily need two UTH unless your house is really cold. 90-92 hot side and around 80ish cool side. These temps are measured on the glass, under your substrate. You want an ambient temp somewhere between these two temps.

You should be concerned with humidity if you are using an infrared bulb! You may not think its zapping all your humidity in your tank, but it most certainly is, I don't care how humid your house is. You NEED humidity in the 60-70% range in your tank and 70-80% when your ball is shedding. With an infrared bulb, especially at those temps, which WILL kill your snake very quickly, I can promise you your humidity is too low unless you are misting it 10 times a day. How are you monitoring it?

Humidity ranges between 50 and 60% as measured with a hygrometer. With both lights on. I figure I can mist it when he's shedding to bring it up another 10%. Maybe over time it will change more, I've only had the lights on for about 24hours.

Like I said before:

Telling us the exact specifications for your tank will help us to help you. Better yet post a picture. From what youve written, it sounds like you have two lamps and one unregulated UTH. Also, nothing in your enclosure should be reaching 107 F. The Basking Spot temperature should be 95 at the highest, that means that the "surface temps" as you call it (which im guessing is on top of a hide) should be at 95 at the highest. If the snake wants to, it will go up there and bask.

How are you taking the temperatures of inside the hide? You should take all the bedding out, and have the thermoMETER probe hot glued to the bottom of the glass, above the center of the Under Tank Heater. This way it will get the hottest temperature on top of the UTH that the snake could reach. Of course the substrate on top may be a bit cooler, but if the snake wants, it will burrow down to get warmer.

Also, by the sounds of it, you are using an unregulated UTH. In my honest opinion, I would never use a UTH without some sort of dimmer or rheostat at least. Try to get a VE-100 or a Ranco if you are short of cash, or a Herpstat or VE-200 or 300 if you have a bit more to spend. Its a worthy investment. The pictures Ive seen of burnt ball python bellies are disgusting and I would never want to hurt my snakes like that. The unregulated heat elements can "spike" and the temperatures really fluctuate a lot.

Lastly, what bedding are you using?

Here is a picture of his enclosure (I've been trying to get it on here for a while not ignoring the request). The left side is the cool side. Right now temp is 80-83. Right side is warm side right now temp is 85-88. The surface temp of the grapevine is 94-96. These are temps over the last 2 hours.

The temp inside the hide on the right (which is right on top of the UTH) last time I checked was around 104 (he's not in there by the way), that was about 2 hours ago.

As you can see I have 4 thermometers, both sides and at 2 different heights.

The UTH that is attached to the side is not on. The guy at the pet-store told me to put that on there rather than underneath, it did nothing. The instructions said once applied you can't remove it without damaging it so I went out and bought another for underneath. It does not heat the rest of the enclosure so I ended up with the lamps.

https://photos-1.dropbox.com/i/l/S1j...2011.06.07.jpg

To take the temp inside the hide I have a temporal thermometer (the kind hospitals use, very accurate), and as for surface temps I have a little digital infrared thermometer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AK907

I would consider the belly heat more far important. You will also need a thermostat for that as well. If anything, ditch the bulb. It will dry out your cage and unless your house is really cold, probably not needed at all. As mattchibi said, read that care sheet.

---

As far as belly heat goes. Wouldn't the lamp(s) be more realistic? In nature the ground does not emit heat. It is heated from above by the sun. I would think a heat lamp shining on a rock which makes the rock warm would be closer to what they would see in the wild.

As for temps I use hot spot temps of 90 and cool end on 80 and ambient air temps between 79-85. 94 is the highest recommended by most care sheets and few possess accurate thermometers the average thermometer used in the hobby is +/- 2ºF so 94 could actually be 96 easily. 90-92 provides a safe working temp accounting for errors.

How you obtain the correct temps is not important that you have them is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VooDooDoc

As far as belly heat goes. Wouldn't the lamp(s) be more realistic? In nature the ground does not emit heat. It is heated from above by the sun. I would think a heat lamp shining on a rock which makes the rock warm would be closer to what they would see in the wild.

---

Technically either would work, but an UTH is going to be a bit more accurate and far cheaper to run (UTH = 15w or less vs. Bulbs = 50-150w or more). Belly heat is usually viewed as a better alternative for a basking site vs a bulb. These aren't animals living in the wild. We have the technology to offer them the best possible conditions, so why not? If it were me I would rely on the UTH for a basking site and the infrared for keeping ambient temps up if necessary, which should be low to mid 80's.

But for now you really need to get those temps down by whatever means you see fit. Nowhere in his tank should be 104 degrees. I know first hand what happens when a snake gets overheated and doesn't die from it. It is very scary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kitedemon

How you obtain the correct temps is not important that you have them is.

---

Yup. Find what works for you. :gj:

The only spot in the tank that it was hot was directly on top of the UTH, its not like the entire tank was like that. Just an 8x6 inch rectangle (estimating the size). No danger of him overheating. I've removed the UTH for now. When I can find one with a thermostat maybe I'll try again.

For now I'm sticking with the lamp(s) and will deal with humidity issues if they arise.

As far as being cheaper, I have far bigger wastes of electricity in my house, 2 kids that apparently don't realize things can be turned off not just on. Its a novel concept I know.:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VooDooDoc

The only spot in the tank that it was hot was directly on top of the UTH, its not like the entire tank was like that. Just an 8x6 inch rectangle (estimating the size). No danger of him overheating.

---

There is most certainly a danger of overheating. Snakes aren't like a human or a dog in that they will always move away from things such as heat. Ever seen a snake burned by a heat rock? Yup, a snake will just lay there and soak up the heat until they burn themselves. Not saying your snake WILL seek that spot out, but it may and if it decides to stay in that spot and enjoy the 100+ degree heat, it can kill your snake and/or cause neurological problems, etc.

I have personally experienced overheating from a faulty thermostat. The temps were no more than yours and only lasted a couple hours. Although the cool side was still a safe temperature, the hot spot was not and our snake sought that spot out. This caused severe neurological damage to her and we ended up having to put her down.

So my statement stands. You need to lower your hot spot otherwise your snake is at a very real risk. Is it really worth the risk?

Like I said:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VooDooDoc

I've removed the UTH for now. When I can find one with a thermostat maybe I'll try again.

---

This was the sole cause of the hot spot. FYI: this thing was 139 degrees. The carpet brought it down to 104-107 but its no wonder why it was so darn high.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VooDooDoc

Like I said:

---

Edit: Ok, so that was the problem. I didn't see any mention of a result in your previous post.

I'm shocked that nobody mentioned or addressed the glaringly obvious problem here... ANY heat source you are running NEEDS to be regulated. Period. I can't think of a single heat source that you can run flat out, 100% and achieve the correct temps. Everyone has been telling you the correct temperature range to shoot for. 90-92 on the hot side, 80-82 on the cool side. You can NOT run a UTH without being hooked to a thermostat. Those things will absolutely get hot enough to burn and even kill your snake. Same thing for the overhead bulbs you're running. Those wattages are high and without being controlled by a dimmer at the very least, will get too hot for a bp.

As you have apparently found, 140ish on an unregulated UTH. Then add in the heat lamp you have blaring on him too, you're probably cooking the poor snake. Definitely read the caresheet on this site. Invest in a thermostat to regulate the temperatures and you'll have a much happier and healthier bp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Inknsteel

I'm shocked that nobody mentioned or addressed the glaringly obvious problem here... ANY heat source you are running NEEDS to be regulated. Period.

---

That's hitting the nail on the head. Unfortunately neither the reptile "expert" at the pet store, nor the packaging/instructions mentioned that. It just says that its safe for your snake as long as you put some sort of substrate down, which is just flat out wrong.

The lamps have rheostats (dimmers) built in. The UTH does not. Well I scoured the city and managed to find a rheostat for the UTH. A medium setting shoots up to to over 100! I've got it adjusted down to 92 now (temp on the glass under the substrate). I also found at another pet store, a thermostat that controls 2 devices so I'm using that for the lamps to come on and off.