Citrus Whiteout Pastels!

There seems to be some confusion as to the origin of this morph and the genetics behind it. I have to admit I have been busy breeding and doing shows instead of posting here so I'm going to answer any and all questions for the next week about this and any other morphs developed by me!
Amir
http://photos.imageevent.com/ballpyt...e/DSC00534.JPG
Picture of one of the original Citrus Pastels from 2002

I like how you created another thread...You should have just posted on the other thread that was already started on this topic. So, first question. Weren't you working on this project with Clark? That would make these animals both from the same lineage right?

Looking forward to seeing some of the stuff your working with Amir keep the pictures coming. Glad to see you posting here on Bp.net.;)

Nice. I think I have no question until I read this today :

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=284051

The one for sale looks like your 2002 citrus pastel and he is very beautiful. We just get confused by what Clark said.

Is a green pastel the same as a het red?

I don't think there are any questions about the Citrus Pastel itself.
The Citrus Pastel is a very nice line of Pastel.

The questions start when people list them as Citrus Whiteouts, even though they do not carry the "Whiteout" gene.

Looking at this project from the outside, with no dog in the fight, this is how I see it.

The Whiteout gene popped up out of a Citrus Pastel, and it was believed that it was attached to the Citrus Pastel mutation.

However, PowerHouse Reptiles produced a Mojo Whiteout.
Now, Since the Citrus Pastel gene is not carried by the Mojo Whiteout, but the Whiteout gene is, there is no doubt that the "Whiteout" is it's own mutation, and is not attached to the Citrus Pastel.

If a Citrus Pastel does not display the Whiteout gene, it is a Citrus Pastel, but not a "Whiteout."

If that is true, then labeling Citrus Pastels that do not exhibit the Whiteout gene as "Citrus Paste Whiteouts," or "Citrus Whiteouts," is misrepresenting your animals, and maybe even scamming your customers at this point.

Amir,
How many WC Citrus Pastels were used to start the line ?

If it was one male Citrus Pastel, maybe one of the females that were paired with him was actually a "Dinker" that was carrying the Whiteout gene ?
Could it be that a Whiteout in itself is a subtle mutation like a Specter or Whirlwind, and goes unnoticed, but explodes when combined with other mutations like the Citrus Pastel, Mojo, and Calico genes ?

Great questions!

First of all I am not working with anyone now nor have I ever worked with anyone in producing my line of Citrus or any other line.
The Citrus pastel was produced here and the Citrus Whiteout was named here first and came from one individual imported female and one imported male pastel.
All Citrus Pastels produced by me and purchased from me have the potential to produce Whiteouts and sibs that are non pastels yet show the hidden gene markers.
As with any product that has value and is sought after there will be counterfeit animals floating around. They did not come from my collection.
Having worked with this gene for over a decade and producing multiple clutches and combos I can say that there is still alot to be understood about the mutation but I do have an advantage when it comes to explaining it.
Citrus Pastel started here and The Whiteout was named here.
Any other questions?
As for the Green Pastel, it is not the same as a Het Red Axanthic. It also started here and was renamed Lace Blackback by Mike Cole who purchased a male from me years ago. It is similar in appearance to a Het Red just like mojave and lesser are similar yet clearly not the same thing.
Hope i have shed some light on the subject.

Amir can you reply to the allegations made by Joe Capone in the fauna thread?


http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=284051

Thanks Amir for coming to answer some questions; not sure if it's in response to the flurry on Fauna or the thread I posted here, but since I was curious about this gene I'll take advantage of it either way :)

You answered a couple of my questions -- I was wondering if any and all citrus pastels floating around from your bloodline have the potential to throw wacky blushy stuff, even if they don't outwardly express the washout trait. It sounds like they do have the potential, but that some citrus pastels are "just" pastels, and there can sometimes be no way to tell if they have the "washout tweaker" gene or not -- is that correct?

To me that's starting to sound quite a bit like the fader gene, which appears to have been separated from the pastel gene (I'm making this assumption just based on looking at the fader stuff that's for sale on NERD's site, which includes non-pastel faders and pastels that are possible fader). Do you think these (your tweeker gene and the fader) are likely the same thing?

Are there any "markers" that you look for (that you feel like sharing ;) ) to distinguish a regular pastel from the Citrus line from a Citrus "whiteout" pastel, with the washout gene?

Are there any genes that the "washout" consistently interacts with (since it seems to only interact with the pastel gene on occasion)? For example, could you have a pewter that was hiding the washout gene, or will it always express as a citrus whiteout pewter?

Thanks in advance! :)

Good morning to all!
I am going to keep this on one forum and people can repost it anywhere they want.
There is going to be quite a few pictures posted here in the next few days of Citrus combos and Citrus sibs. I would also like to point out that until Mike Bell , Mark Bailey and some others who bought Citrus pastels and crosses directly from me started making triple combinations there was no reason to get crazy about the mutation. As more and more mutations have been combined with the Citrus the crazy combos have been popping up all over the place. What I am surprised by is that no one person tried to claim that they have made something with my line that is a morph all to itself and can not be replicated. I have known lots of people in this business for the last twenty years. I have sold many animals that have started many powerful genetic lines that have made people Millions of dollars. The Yellowbelly ball came from here. The enchi and the desert used to make the first Tiger came from here. The Puma and Suma came from here. The Citrus and all the crosses made from it started in my collection ten years ago. So if there is an angry customer please let me hear it.
If there are people who bought snakes they are not happy with Please let me hear it. Otherwise enjoy your animals and have a nice day!

Hi Amir, thanks for the info. I personally have a Citrus Whiteout Pastel that I purchased from Jonathan at Breeder's Circle. I am very pleased with her and can't wait to get her up to size.

However, with all of the controversy on the Fauna ad, of course some level of "paranoia" sinks in as I did pay for a "Citrus Whiteout Pastel" and they are significantly higher in price than other pastels.

Could you please shed some light on your relationship with Jonathan Foltz? My transaction went great and his level of customer service was stellar. But, he drops your name a lot and I would like to know your opinion; is he trustworthy and are the animals he's selling as "Citrus Whiteout Pastels" from your line?

Thank you.

I'd love to see some pictures of citrus whiteouts made from those regular looking citrus pastels.
Not citrus combos or citrus pastels, actual whiteout snakes made from normal looking citrus pastels.

Agreed so do I! I am quite intuited by the citrus pastels. Id love to see pics.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I'd love to see some pictures of citrus whiteouts made from those regular looking citrus pastels.
Not citrus combos or citrus pastels, actual whiteout snakes made from normal looking citrus pastels.

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Don't think you will see them Jerry.

I want to add something to this thread, me and Amir have done lots of business over the years many of my animals were purchased or traded directly with him, he has never misrepresented anything, the guy is one of the pioneers of the Ball python industry hands down.

Amir has done thousands of transactions, literally thousands not like your average breeder out there who is inflating his resume...Thousands guys! Where are the unhappy customers? He takes care of his customers that's why he is still here 10-15 years later.

I have also done alot of buying and selling with Amir for 20 years or more he takes care of his customers ! Jonathan of breeders circle and I have also done are share of buying, trading and selling he also has never let me down! IMO when someone starts bashing people It is not a good sign and reflects bad on the hobbie! Just my opinion!:please:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twistedtails

Don't think you will see them Jerry.

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I don't either at this point Mike.

What do past experiences have to do with this topic?
I know people that have had wonderful experiences buying from all the parties involved, doesn't mean squat.

Pictures or it didn't happen...That's not so difficult, is it?

Past experiences may not have anything to do with it but reputation should and your not gonna find the negativity out there surrounding amir or jonathan. I am always confident buying from jonathan and trust everything i buy from him is what he says it is. I havent done any buisness directlly from amir himself but i do alot of buisness with people that do and i have gotten animals that are amirs lines and im nothin but happy with all of them. Just sayin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ch^10

Hi Amir, thanks for the info. I personally have a Citrus Whiteout Pastel that I purchased from Jonathan at Breeder's Circle. I am very pleased with her and can't wait to get her up to size.

However, with all of the controversy on the Fauna ad, of course some level of "paranoia" sinks in as I did pay for a "Citrus Whiteout Pastel" and they are significantly higher in price than other pastels.

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Did you purchase this citrus whiteout pastel under the assumption that it would create whiteout combos like Powerhouse is making?

Hello Amir, so nice to see you here! I have been trying to get a hold of you for some time by doing web searches for your contact info, trying to connect with you on facebook and asking multilple breeders for your email or phone number but without success. It seems that people on the west coast are at a disadvantage than others closer to you in connecting with you because we are too far away from the shows you attend out there. :(

I bought a pastel yellowbelly from Scott Austin who says he bought an Ivory from you quite a few years back and the snake is just amazingly beautiful! Could you perhaps email me off the list? I would also be interested in purchasing some snakes from you in the future.

Sincerely,

Helen Poplin

I for one am one happy customer of Amir's. I have spent thousands with Amir and will do more in the future. He is the best in my opinion and I envy that man. He sees things that people just don't. I can't explain it you all. If there was one person I had to pick to name a morph, he is the one I would go to before ANYONE else and I mean ANYONE. He is honest and he takes cares of his customers like he has done with me. The funny thing is I was just taking pictures this weekend of my animals and guess what, they are citrus combos. They are amazing and I am lucky and I mean LUCKY to be working with them.

Pictures taking this weekend. I hope you do not get offended AMir, these are the best of the best in my opinion and I am not trying to take over your thread.
CItrus pewter at 2 1/2 years old and he is a non whiteout but he threw whiteout animals this past season.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...s/P1060541.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...s/P1060539.jpg
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...s/P1060538.jpg

Father of this clutch
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...s/P1040899.jpg
and this clutch
Males
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...s/P1040636.jpg
Females
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...s/P1040602.jpg

Father to this whiteout
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...s/P1040565.jpg
and to this white out
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...s/P1040869.jpg

CItrus pastel whiteout breeding as of this weekend bought from Amir
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...s/P1060527.jpg
Citrus whiteout silver streak bought from Amir
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...s/P1040671.jpg
I have been to Amir's house and I can not explain the CRAZY citrus whiteout combos this man has. Look at mine, now imagine that 20X over with better stuff. I am sure the pictures from Amir and Jonathan will come. You have to remember that these guys are BIG breeders with busy schedules. Happy customers and being true speak for themselves.

Well, I'll try this again, my entire post was lost when I was logged out.
Note: All animals mentioned below are on my photo page.
http://imageevent.com/mikebellreptil...itrusstuffinfo

I didn't read the other post before it was pulled, but I have been told a little bit about it. Of all the people mentioned, Clark, Joe, Jonathan and Amir, Amir is the only one I know personally. We have done tens of thousands of dollars worth of business over the last 5-6 years. He has always done what he has said, I have never heard of anyone else having a negative experience.

In 2010 I produced three super citrus pastel calicos that were almost white as hatchlings. They turned yellow with age. There was also a super citrus pastel with an odd busy look. This was from a citrus pastel calico bred to a citrus pastel female. There was citrus on both sides resulting in an extreme whiteout look.

I have several g-stripe clutches from a citrus pastel stripe male bred to unrelated non citrus het stripes. About 50% of the pastel stripes he has thrown show a whiteout look, white head and much nicer pastel stripe overall. These have citrus only on one side, they don't have anywhere near as extreme look as the calicos mentioned above, I'm looking forward to breeding citrus stripe to citrus stripe to see if there is a more extreme whiteout look to be had with them or if the extreme condition was from the calico.

I hatched a citrus pastel puma from a puma bred to a citrus pastel yellow belly. I haven't seen a lot of these, but mine has a white head.

In conclusion, my two citrus males, the citrus calico and the citrus stripe are not whiteouts, but throw whiteouts. Can every citrus do this? I don't know. I welcome any questions. I'll be in Tampa this weekend exhibiting at the Tampa Repticon show, many of these animals will be there to compare.
Thanks, Mike Bell
http://photos.imageevent.com/mikebel.../7_photoX1.JPG

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Did you purchase this citrus whiteout pastel under the assumption that it would create whiteout combos like Powerhouse is making?

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I purchased the snake with the assumption that it is a superior line of Pastel that may or may not throw crazy "Citrus Whiteout" combos, NOT Powerhouse combos (to the best of my knowledge, "Powerhouse Washouts" were not yet available when I purchased my snake--this was about 5 months ago). I knew that there was still a lot to be learned about the project when I purchased the snake and that was a risk I was willing to take.

Hello!
Hope everyone had a great weekend! I know I did.
I've had many calls and emails over the last forty-eight hours.
I'm happy to let everyone know that Ill be answering questions on Reptile Radio this Sunday at 11:00 PM EST.
You can direct your questions to Larry@reptileradio.net and I will answer them on air.
Thanks
Amir

11pm!!!! That is past my bedtime!!!

http://photos.imageevent.com/mikebel...Hatchlings.jpg
http://photos.imageevent.com/mikebel...e/DSCN4064.JPG
Super Citrus Whiteout Calicos at birth and one after several months.

Beautiful snakes mike !!!!!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Well, I'll try this again, my entire post was lost when I was logged out.
Note: All animals mentioned below are on my photo page.
http://imageevent.com/mikebellreptil...itrusstuffinfo

I didn't read the other post before it was pulled, but I have been told a little bit about it. Of all the people mentioned, Clark, Joe, Jonathan and Amir, Amir is the only one I know personally. We have done tens of thousands of dollars worth of business over the last 5-6 years. He has always done what he has said, I have never heard of anyone else having a negative experience.

In 2010 I produced three super citrus pastel calicos that were almost white as hatchlings. They turned yellow with age. There was also a super citrus pastel with an odd busy look. This was from a citrus pastel calico bred to a citrus pastel female. There was citrus on both sides resulting in an extreme whiteout look.

I have several g-stripe clutches from a citrus pastel stripe male bred to unrelated non citrus het stripes. About 50% of the pastel stripes he has thrown show a whiteout look, white head and much nicer pastel stripe overall. These have citrus only on one side, they don't have anywhere near as extreme look as the calicos mentioned above, I'm looking forward to breeding citrus stripe to citrus stripe to see if there is a more extreme whiteout look to be had with them or if the extreme condition was from the calico.

I hatched a citrus pastel puma from a puma bred to a citrus pastel yellow belly. I haven't seen a lot of these, but mine has a white head.

In conclusion, my two citrus males, the citrus calico and the citrus stripe are not whiteouts, but throw whiteouts. Can every citrus do this? I don't know. I welcome any questions. I'll be in Tampa this weekend exhibiting at the Tampa Repticon show, many of these animals will be there to compare.
Thanks, Mike Bell
http://photos.imageevent.com/mikebel.../7_photoX1.JPG

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First, thank you for the detailed response and for posting pictures of some truly incredible snakes! Would you mind posting pictures of the Citrus Pastel Calico (M) and the Citrus Pastel (F) that produced that amazing clutch? Thanks in advance.

I have been in Tampa for the Repticon show. I'll get some pictures soon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Bell

I have been in Tampa for the Repticon show. I'll get some pictures soon.

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Thanks, I can't wait to see them. Hopefully the show went well...

I guess the week is up

I picked up a 1.0 Pastel Calico from Amir around 2009 and as you can see in the pics its not a Whiteout, just a low white Pastel Calico. He was not a great eater for me and first time i bread him was 2012 to my 0.1 Blond Pastel, first two pics. The next two pics are Super Pastel Calico Whiteout, the third pic is the entire clutch. I also bread the 1.0 Pastel Calico from Amir to a different 0.1 Pastel and did not get any Whiteout's? So it is like a hidden gean from what I can see and am told. This year I will breed the 1.0 Pastel Calico from Amir and its sib the 1.0 Super Pastel Calico Whiteout back to the 0.1 Blond Pastel and did not get any Whiteouts as you can see in the last pic. 2013/2014 will try again but this time will only breed 1.0 Pastel Calico from Amir to 0.1 Blond Pastel as Jonathan suggested , I want more of those Whiteouts!

http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s...psef93335b.jpg
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s...2/DSC00360.jpg
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s...2/DSC00401.jpg
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s...psfe44c3f7.jpg
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s...2/DSC00305.jpg
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s...pse77c2c96.jpg

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/k...s/IMGP0849.jpg

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/k...s/IMGP0845.jpg

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/k...s/IMGP0853.jpg

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/k...s/IMGP0854.jpg

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/k...s/IMGP0855.jpg

Whiteout Bee...

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/k...s/IMGP0813.jpg

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/k...s/IMGP0814.jpg

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/k...s/IMGP0817.jpg

It's impossible for the camera to capture their colors. They are almost lime green in person.

I sure with this thread was still going
I bought into the whiteout project from 95 Reptiles several years ago when I purchased a Pastel Enchi Whiteout Female.
She has given some incredibly bright and clean offspring which I assume is thew Whiteout gene at play.
If anyone is interested in responding to this I would so grateful.
Mike