Question about breeding desert females!

Is it possible to get a good clutch from say a desert Pin, since theres some other genetics in there, Or will it not produce like all other female deserts

I thought I would post here instead of the breeding forum, as there is genetics somewhat in question

Not worth the Risk IMO at the price of Deserts. I cant see spending 2K+ and never getting a vital clutch from her. One reason I will never get into Deserts or Caramels.

Some will say its not been long enough which is BS, other morphs been around few years and have been producing some wicked stuff in half the time Deserts been around. Females avg to get to breeding size is 2 years.

Rather play the breeding game with these morphs, ill sit back and watch people get their feathers ruffled over it.

Yes I know desert females do not produce viable clutches,

But even having a second gene in them like a pinstripe, ex: desert Pinstripe. they still do not produce? you think with having a stable gene with the desert would increas the chances of producing viable clutches

I wonder why deserts dont produce in the first place, I find it strange.

Wont matter what genes are mixed in, the Desert Dominant gene is still there in the female.

maybe if you wait 10-15 MORE years you might get an answer :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Wont matter what genes are mixed in, the Desert Dominant gene is still there in the female.

maybe if you wait 10-15 MORE years you might get an answer :rolleyes::rolleyes:

---

So really its a waste to even get male deserts for breeding plans, because the female offspring would be useless for breeding as they would have the desert gene aswell? is that correct

To me it is yes, If you want a male desert to produce other male morph combos go ahead.

But you sell them females off and they prove to be infertile, what will you do for your customer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

To me it is yes, If you want a male desert to produce other male morph combos go ahead.

But you sell them females off and they prove to be infertile, what will you do for your customer.

---

I find it pretty sad that Alot of reputable high end breeders are still selling desert females at a high cost and not making it aware to possible buyers of the problems people are having with deserts and breeding! Im sure there is plenty of people buying them that are unaware of the problems. Kind of shady of the breeders if you ask me

Give it time, later in the day today the desert squad will be here defending them.

Just doesnt take this long for a Dominant gene to prove fertile or infertile at all. Some say cooler temps will be the trick but thats waste of time. Ball pythons are all the same just different paint jobs. To say one needs cooler temps than another is absurd when their genetically the same whether normal or albino or desert.

I personally wouldn't buy a desert female to breed, it's not worth the risk. Getting one as a pet is a different story. It's still a gorgeous snake. I'm sure there are many people out there that would want one for that reason. I don't think breeding is an end unto itself; Yes, most of us here breed to see what awesome things we can come up with. But I think there are a lot more people out there that buy what we create for their beauty, and to have a unique pet. Otherwise every python owner out there would be a breeder. Perfect example, I was at my local herp store the other day, and they sold a five thousand dollar snake to a doctor who plans to keep it at his office (not the greatest idea, seeing as how a ball is going to sit in his hide all day, but its his money I guess.) :D

Hence the high prices on females, despite their infertility. As far as breeders being shady goes... I think it's pretty common knowledge that desert females are infertile. But even if a person doesn't know that, a ten second Google search would tell them that much. Which anyone with half a brain should do before buying a $2k+ animal, especially if they plan to breed it. :P



Edit: Sleep deprived grammar... Again. I should learn what night time is. Ha ha!

You have some good points, And yes I agree people should do research on what they buy, but I also I think the breeder should inform there buyers by posting something on there site.

I know if I was a breeder, theres no way I would be selling desert females without properly informing/educating the buyer before they intend to purchuse that particualr morph

There is some great factual information in this thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by muddoc

There is some great factual information in this thread.

---

So far I haven't seen any facts, just opinions and speculation. :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by muddoc

There is some great factual information in this thread.

---

Isn't there?? :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PythonOutlaw

I find it pretty sad that Alot of reputable high end breeders are still selling desert females at a high cost and not making it aware to possible buyers of the problems people are having with deserts and breeding! Im sure there is plenty of people buying them that are unaware of the problems. Kind of shady of the breeders if you ask me

---

Hmm... how do you know that a lot of reputable high end breeders are not disclosing this to their customers? Have you bought desert females from them or do you know someone who has?

Deserts have been around a while, but not in mass quantities. Obviously, there is something going on with the females, but we haven't had enough time to come to the conclusion that desert females will never lay viable eggs. It was only earlier this year when the idea of lowering temperatures for desert females came up. This idea came from looking at the husbandry of someone who did get a desert female to lay viable eggs.

I have a male desert, and I haven't regretted the purchase once. He's amazing and will produce amazing combos. Will I sell the females? Absolutely. I will also make sure anyone interested in them is aware of what we know about deserts at the time. I will also price them accordingly. If we haven't cracked the code by the time I have them, the females will be priced significantly lower. Not likely "pet" prices, but lower than the males.

I dont know... I dont own a desert so I have no dog in this fight. I love the way they look, but untill someone comes out with some sort of proof that females will produce I will not have one in my collection. It may happen this season, and it may never happen.

I have heard everything from they have to be over 2kilos to the temperature thing. I love the look of desert morphs, but for that money I could grab up a superstripe, crystal, or something else that I have been drooling over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

Hmm... how do you know that a lot of reputable high end breeders are not disclosing this to their customers? Have you bought desert females from them or do you know someone who has?

Deserts have been around a while, but not in mass quantities. Obviously, there is something going on with the females, but we haven't had enough time to come to the conclusion that desert females will never lay viable eggs. It was only earlier this year when the idea of lowering temperatures for desert females came up. This idea came from looking at the husbandry of someone who did get a desert female to lay viable eggs.

I have a male desert, and I haven't regretted the purchase once. He's amazing and will produce amazing combos. Will I sell the females? Absolutely. I will also make sure anyone interested in them is aware of what we know about deserts at the time. I will also price them accordingly. If we haven't cracked the code by the time I have them, the females will be priced significantly lower. Not likely "pet" prices, but lower than the males.

---

Hey Josh, I dig your vids on Youtube man! When your unboxing your snakes you get I am probably just as excited as you are to see them come out of the bag lookin all amazing and what not hahah! :gj:

Thanks Chris! :) I've got a lot of videos planned. I just have to find time to make them.

Let's not derail this thread though. Drop me a PM or email if you want to chat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Give it time, later in the day today the desert squad will be here defending them.

Just doesnt take this long for a Dominant gene to prove fertile or infertile at all. Some say cooler temps will be the trick but thats waste of time. Ball pythons are all the same just different paint jobs. To say one needs cooler temps than another is absurd when their genetically the same whether normal or albino or desert.

---

But they are obviously not all genetically the same, if they were you would not see some morphs with wobbles, kinks, infertility etc. etc, while other morphs have none. They would all be the same.;)

I'm leaning towards keeping back all of my desert females just so I can experiment with them and be the first to produce a super ;)

all speculation for sure but have not seen a female desert on eggs??? have you?? or anybody have pictures??

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by greghall

all speculation for sure but have not seen a female desert on eggs??? have you?? or anybody have pictures??

---

Kahl line desert sitting on six good eggs... Last I knew that was the last anyone heard anything about that clutch, so who knows what happened with it.

http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch...19964&key=2011

When I went to NARBC in October, one of the vendors sold me a very beautiful looking tiger female at the NERD table (I thought it was Raphy for a sec there but I actually think it was another guy, RJ I think is his name). I was unsure about buying her, because I had heard stories about desert females not being able to produce. He tracked down Chad from Pro Exotics, introduced me to Chad, and told me to ask my question about desert viability to Chad.

Chad told me that I shouldn't worry about the viability; deserts just needed a slightly different environment from regular BPs. He told me to put the female on the bottom-most tub of my rack so she'd be a little colder than the others. He said he knew of a female desert who had produced in (I want to say) Europe, so there was nothing to be concerned over.

I would be very sad to think that both would lie, so I feel confident about my purchase. They don't seem like the types who would do that.

There's my 2 cents. :snake:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

To say one needs cooler temps than another is absurd when their genetically the same whether normal or albino or desert.

---

The theory is deserts can't thermo-regulate their eggs properly and cook them. And you do realize you contradict your own statement in itself right?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

The theory is deserts can't thermo-regulate their eggs properly and cook them. And you do realize you contradict your own statement in itself right?

---

Wait!....Albinos and normals aren't genetically the same???? :rofl:

:cool: I'm still waiting for proof on either end.. They are gorgeous... If it turns out they can't breed right--I'll need to pick me up a desert lady as a pet, they are gorgeous. If it turns out they breed just fine--I'll be very happy for those who have gotten in on the desert gene early and will happily join them one day!

Til then... We'll see!

I am very intrested in this as I plan on getting a desert male to make some awesome combos. I hope an answer is found soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jam Reptiles

I am very intrested in this as I plan on getting a desert male to make some awesome combos. I hope an answer is found soon.

---

You really have a lot of reading to do before you start spending any cash. Even with a male, you will need an outlet for the females you produce, so keep that in mind. Many folks do not want to feed a non-breedable female.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jinx667

You really have a lot of reading to do before you start spending any cash. Even with a male, you will need an outlet for the females you produce, so keep that in mind. Many folks do not want to feed a non-breedable female.

---

I feel bad for all the people who bought into the desert project without first receiving full disclosure but I think the morph still has a plenty of potential for breeders and keepers alike. The only people that really got burned are those who bought females with the intent to breed without being made aware of their situation.

That said, breeders will continue paying good money for the male combos and people who want a crazy looking pet snake should be able to afford a nice female combo without breaking the bank. Looking at it positively, the females are basically born spayed so you don't have to worry about people honoring "pet only" agreements.

The fact that females can't reproduce and are priced lower does in no way excuse breeders from full disclosure responsibilities when selling them in my opinion. I think if you're selling an animal with known problems you should make every potential buyer fully aware. Sure folks should do their own research but searches will come up nil until those who know start coming forward and spreading the word.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John1982

Looking at it positively, the females are basically born spayed so you don't have to worry about people honoring "pet only" agreements.

---

Not really. Female deserts can and do become gravid. Usually with slugs, but there have been numerous recorded cases of the female becoming egg bound and/or dying from the pregnancy. So yes, you do have to worry. If the females could not become gravid, and were not in danger of people "giving it a shot" I wouldn't be against having a boy to get some beautiful combo's with. But with the females lives at risk, I just can't do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jinx667

You really have a lot of reading to do before you start spending any cash. Even with a male, you will need an outlet for the females you produce, so keep that in mind. Many folks do not want to feed a non-breedable female.

---

I have done alot of the reading especially in these forums and the way I see it is if I end up with females I will keep them or give them to my nephews nieces cousins I have alot of family members that would love a nice snake.

Remember folks, desert females will still cost more than a normal. Female desert combos will cost more than single gene female deserts. You still have an animal that can sell for more than the cost of a normal male.


One thing to really consider if your reason for not getting into the project is "I can tell them that the snake is PET only but I can't guarantee they won't try...": You can't guarantee that the person who buys your desert won't try and breed her, only to fail and possibly kill the baby you produced... You ALSO can't guarantee that the person buying your other snakes will feed them regularly.. Or clean them.. Or give them fresh water like you do.. You can't stop your customers from housing snakes together, or giving your snake a huge heat lamp, leaving them dry with layers of stuck eye caps..

I don't consider this common excuse to be really reasonable..

The main reason I won't get into the desert project is because there's a 50% chance that you'll hatch out an animal that you can't hold back and breed. I know people pair their snakes hoping for a special male or female, then get a little disappointed when they don't get the gender they were hoping for, but there's another person out there who is dying to have that gender snake in their breeding group! I'd be happy to supply them with that morph :D. Not many people who want to BREED will say "man I really hope someone produces a female super pastel spider tiger next year so I can show her off! Part of the allure of the ball python hobby is the breeding potential your snakes have! That's why I'm not really into the pied project much, or white snakes, black snakes, and various other patternless :gj:. I like snakes that would be enhanced with other genes! A BEL is crazy! A pastel BEL is a BEL.. A bumblebee BEL is a BEL... A clown BEL is a BEL :(..

I need to go to sleep :D. Desert discussions are always fun to participate in :P. i like hearing other people's opinions on the project since we all have varying points of views. Especially on value. That's what keeps the "ball game" rolling :gj:.

The way I see it is there are two facts:
Deserts make awesome combos &
Females have reproduction issues

My thought is this should keep the desert gene going, as it is much harder to produce combos. Therefore, prices should not drop as drastically. While on the other side of this, if you want an awesome looking snake, with no interest in the breeding, you can also pick up the same combo at about 1/3 of the price.

To me, sounds like a win win for both breeders and those looking for an awesome pet.

That is what made me to decide to buy my breeder male this weekend. I will also be on the side of the fence where until there is conrete proof that they at no point will ever produce viable clutches, I'll be holding a few of my females back. I will definately not give anyone looking to buy one the impression that they will breed, however. Full disclosure here.

Just my opinion of many. Feel free to agree or disagree.

Where is the info on lowering temps for a desert female to produce a clutch that is good. I am interested I would like to read it and look further into it. I have a desert male and should have some hatching in the next couple days. I would like a female to see what the possibility of her laying is.

Quote:

---

hype1108
Where is the info on lowering temps for a desert female to produce a clutch that is good.

---

There is no info that it works because it probably doesn't. It has been tried by multiple people with the same results.

If wonder if the desert gene was worth what a pastel is worth would all this fuss be going on?

With many hundreds of base mutations it seems people forget that occasionally one might not work genetically for whatever reason.
Spider champs, super HGW and more combo's are lethal, why is it such a stretch that we have found another mutation that won't work?

The reason has probably been found as to why they can't provide us with good eggs but being human we want to "fix" everything that's wrong.
Sometimes it just isn't possible :snake:

if you want to get into desert [type] stuff, get into the desert ghost gene. its the recessive. females aren't infertile and the combos are rad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by adam_c

if you want to get into desert [type] stuff, get into the desert ghost gene. its the recessive. females aren't infertile and the combos are rad.

---

They don't look anything alike... lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TJ_Burton

They don't look anything alike... lol

---

No. But both are a clean up morph with similar effects.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I don't think it's fair to say they don't look anything alike, or are not similar. They are non related morphs yes, but I believe I read (my memory is crap, so please correct me if I'm wrong) the reason behind the "Desert" name was that when it was imported, they actually thought it was another line of Desert Ghost, and were expecting it to be recessive etc? I think they are similar in what they do in combos.

http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...ert-pinstripe/
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...ost-pinstripe/

Now, I'm not saying those look exactly alike, but I think there are a good bit of similarities, enough to use DG as a suggestion for people looking to work with Deserts anyway.

*shrug* my opinion anyways :)

- - - Updated - - -

Found where I read it, it was on Albey's site.

The excerpt:

Around 2001 Stan Chiras purchased his original Desert male as a 350 gram import. At the time of purchase it was assumed to be a Desert Ghost. When it got up to size to breed it was bred to a Normal Female and the offspring were expected to be Normal looking Het Desert Ghost. Much to his surprise two of the babies looked just like the Father. Around this same time Peter Kahl imported a like animal that he also thought was a Desert Ghost. His Desert did the same thing as Stan’s. Stan and Peter compared their animals and determined that they were the same thing. Instead of being a Simple Recessive trait it appears to be Co-Dom.


From this page http://www.albeysreptiles.com/desert07_1.htm
So saying that the Desert, is not connected in any way, is a bit of a stretch. The original ones were thought to be DGs, so suggestion of the use in replacement is not so much an oddity as people like to claim :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoseyReps

I think there are a good bit of similarities, enough to use DG as a suggestion for people looking to work with Deserts anyway.

---

Maybe not exactly the same but an excellent trait none the less :gj:

I think the Desert Ghost (hypo) is a great looking gene. Like it more than the Dominant 'Desert' gene to be honest. But they don't have the same effects on patterns, and they don't have the same effects on colors. The only thing that is similar is that they lighten morph combos up. Not in the same way, but they do it.

I just think the Desert Ghost is often tossed in as an alternative because they share a similar name moreso than because they are so 'alike' (cause they aren't).
ARGUE WITH ME I DARES U

I am new to the hobby in the past year, so I can give one newcomer's perspective to this issue. I have seen the adds and know that some breeders do not warn about desert female fertility issues, which can only be an attempt to fool newbies. Since anyone in the hobby with experience knows the issue, they will buy or not buy female deserts based on their knowledge. And I am sure no breeder or experienced hobbyist is buying expensive desert females. So the only reason to not disclose is to fool newcomers. The caveat emptor argument is poor. It would be very easy for a newcomer to do reasonable due diligence about buying ball pythons without coming across the desert female reproductive problems. All that said, here is my approach. I have spent about $20k for my collection so far. I have noted anyone who sells desert females at high prices without warnings and will never buy anything from them. They may make money on some newbies, but I will hopefully represent lost dollars to offset what I see as shady practices. Conversely, the reputable folks who do warn are on my likely to buy from list, since they put current dollars at risk to be honest and helpful to newbies. Obviously I feel strongly about this, and it is only my opinion only. But there it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TJ_Burton

I think the Desert Ghost (hypo) is a great looking gene. Like it more than the Dominant 'Desert' gene to be honest. But they don't have the same effects on patterns, and they don't have the same effects on colors. The only thing that is similar is that they lighten morph combos up. Not in the same way, but they do it.

I just think the Desert Ghost is often tossed in as an alternative because they share a similar name moreso than because they are so 'alike' (cause they aren't).
ARGUE WITH ME I DARES U

---

I think you are right in the fact that most people suggest them because of the name. But, what I was trying to point out, the name similarity was no accident. As hatchlings they are similar in appearance. That being said, I do not believe they are very similar as adults.

Buuuuut...I also believe that they are as close as we can currently come to making similar combos, without using the Desert gene. By no means exact, but some of the same qualities. The lightening and creamy colors.

I WILL DAGNABIT! BECAUSE I'M STUBBORN AND RARELY ADMIT BEING WRONG! SO HA! ...yea
...take that! :P :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

No. But both are a clean up morph with similar effects.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

---

yes. this was my point. thank you. haha

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TJ_Burton

I think the Desert Ghost (hypo) is a great looking gene. Like it more than the Dominant 'Desert' gene to be honest. But they don't have the same effects on patterns, and they don't have the same effects on colors. The only thing that is similar is that they lighten morph combos up. Not in the same way, but they do it.

I just think the Desert Ghost is often tossed in as an alternative because they share a similar name moreso than because they are so 'alike' (cause they aren't).
ARGUE WITH ME I DARES U

---

i WILL in fact haha but what i was saying wasn't at all because of the name. they DO have similarities thats why i said the word TYPE. they both clean up and lighten.

the only thing i was getting at is if he wants something sweet that has some similarities to the desert gene (more than others) and isnt infertile, then get into desert ghosts :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RoseyReps

I think you are right in the fact that most people suggest them because of the name. But, what I was trying to point out, the name similarity was no accident. As hatchlings they are similar in appearance. That being said, I do not believe they are very similar as adults.

Buuuuut...I also believe that they are as close as we can currently come to making similar combos, without using the Desert gene. By no means exact, but some of the same qualities. The lightening and creamy colors.

I WILL DAGNABIT! BECAUSE I'M STUBBORN AND RARELY ADMIT BEING WRONG! SO HA! ...yea
...take that! :P :D

---

:sabduel:

We shall do this^

The victor's statement will be taken as truth.

YES PLEASE! Not so much for the sake of the winner's being taken as truth, but more so because I would very much enjoy getting a real lightsaber :please:

I will warn you though TJ, I am a formidable opponent in force to force combat. I have almost moved the remote while stretching for it...like a hundred times...so close...just a little wiggle....Yea..I'm pretty tough stuff :D

Desert is a color AND pattern morph. Desert GHOST is a color morph. Desert ghost is more of an enhancer gene where the desert is a game changer. It's not like enchi / orange dream where both are pattern reducers and color changers. They obviously do things differently, but they do a lot of the same things as well.

I agree that the name is what put this idea into people's heads :gj:. TJ I agree 100% with ya :P.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by h00blah

Desert is a color AND pattern morph. Desert GHOST is a color morph. Desert ghost is more of an enhancer gene where the desert is a game changer. It's not like enchi / orange dream where both are pattern reducers and color changers. They obviously do things differently, but they do a lot of the same things as well.

I agree that the name is what put this idea into people's heads :gj:. TJ I agree 100% with ya :P.

---

but again, i suggested this from the start NOT because of the name but because of the similarities between the two DIFFERENT genes. they are both awesome and i really do hope that some day someone figures out the desert females because they really are a remarkable mutation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by h00blah

Desert is a color AND pattern morph. Desert GHOST is a color morph. Desert ghost is more of an enhancer gene where the desert is a game changer. It's not like enchi / orange dream where both are pattern reducers and color changers. They obviously do things differently, but they do a lot of the same things as well.

I agree that the name is what put this idea into people's heads :gj:. TJ I agree 100% with ya :P.

---

Nobody asked you Travis! Go look at more pics of your enchi fire :P :rofl:

:DI keeeed:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Slashmaster

When I went to NARBC in October, one of the vendors sold me a very beautiful looking tiger female at the NERD table (I thought it was Raphy for a sec there but I actually think it was another guy, RJ I think is his name). I was unsure about buying her, because I had heard stories about desert females not being able to produce. He tracked down Chad from Pro Exotics, introduced me to Chad, and told me to ask my question about desert viability to Chad.

Chad told me that I shouldn't worry about the viability; deserts just needed a slightly different environment from regular BPs. He told me to put the female on the bottom-most tub of my rack so she'd be a little colder than the others. He said he knew of a female desert who had produced in (I want to say) Europe, so there was nothing to be concerned over.

I would be very sad to think that both would lie, so I feel confident about my purchase. They don't seem like the types who would do that.

There's my 2 cents. :snake:

---

Hate to revive a dead thread but just wondering what this guys thinking now cause he clearly got screwed over on that desert female purchase.