Please help me!!! Humidity issues...

ok im going to give you the setup im using. i have got the temperatures perfect now, but now the tank keeps drying out. i have my juvenile BP in a twenty gallon long with a full screen top.

Heat: two 5.5 inch deep domes with 60 watt bulbs. one appropriate sized UTH. i was using a single 5.5 deep dome with 100 watt bulb and a UTH. the 100 wat bulb was making the screen too hot under the dome (they sit directly on the screen.) i was worried about the snake getting burned. also it was a little on the cold side both during day, and also at night when i only used the UTH. now during the day it has 120 wats of light/heat but the smaller bulbs allow the screen to stay cooler. at night only the red one shines and combined with the UTH, the temperature gradient is perfect according to the majority of info i've read, during both day and night cycles.

the snake has a large sized corner bowl on the cool side of the tank, and i am using cypress mulch now as substrate instead of aspen because i was told the cypress will keep the humidity better. now the tank finally has perfect heat, but keeps drying out. i want a humidity between 50 and 65 for my snake, and im having trouble getting it up above 40 to 45 for any extended length of time. if i mist it jumps to 70 or 80 then back to 40 or 45 within an hour. i know my issues are due to the open screen top, so i have tried putting towels over all but the warm end where the domes are, that got too hot, and didnt hold humidity. i am thinking of having plexiglass cut to size and placing on top of the screen top, with some vent holes over the length of the tank, and two 5.5 holes to accomodate the two 5.5 domes above the basking end, but i know this will probably throw off my heating again. if anyone has any sugestions or comments please let me know. this is my first BP, and im kinda getting frustrated trying to find a setup that looks nice but still creates a perfect habitat for my snake, and i really want it to have the best environment possible.

again, if anyone has ANY input or advice, PLEASE share your knowledge with me...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bestinthehaven

ok im going to give you the setup im using. i have got the temperatures perfect now, but now the tank keeps drying out. i have my juvenile BP in a twenty gallon long with a full screen top.

Heat: two 5.5 inch deep domes with 60 watt bulbs. one appropriate sized UTH. i was using a single 5.5 deep dome with 100 watt bulb and a UTH. the 100 wat bulb was making the screen too hot under the dome (they sit directly on the screen.) i was worried about the snake getting burned. also it was a little on the cold side both during day, and also at night when i only used the UTH. now during the day it has 120 wats of light/heat but the smaller bulbs allow the screen to stay cooler. at night only the red one shines and combined with the UTH, the temperature gradient is perfect according to the majority of info i've read, during both day and night cycles.

the snake has a large sized corner bowl on the cool side of the tank, and i am using cypress mulch now as substrate instead of aspen because i was told the cypress will keep the humidity better. now the tank finally has perfect heat, but keeps drying out. i want a humidity between 50 and 65 for my snake, and im having trouble getting it up above 40 to 45 for any extended length of time. if i mist it jumps to 70 or 80 then back to 40 or 45 within an hour. i know my issues are due to the open screen top, so i have tried putting towels over all but the warm end where the domes are, that got too hot, and didnt hold humidity. i am thinking of having plexiglass cut to size and placing on top of the screen top, with some vent holes over the length of the tank, and two 5.5 holes to accomodate the two 5.5 domes above the basking end, but i know this will probably throw off my heating again. if anyone has any sugestions or comments please let me know. this is my first BP, and im kinda getting frustrated trying to find a setup that looks nice but still creates a perfect habitat for my snake, and i really want it to have the best environment possible.

again, if anyone has ANY input or advice, PLEASE share your knowledge with me...

---

before i switched to tubs i used to cover 1/3 to 1/2 the tank with a damp towel or paper towel to hold in the humidity. using this method i was able to keep the humidity from 50-60, paper towel or towel normally dried out every 6-8 hours. the use of two light bulbs is really dropping the humidity. if the towel method doesn't work, I would insulate the all sides of the tank with foam insulation, and only use one light bulb. this will allow you to hold the temp and at the same time you wont sap the humidity in ur tank

x2

The heat bulbs are your main problem, they kill humidity. Tubs are so much easier when it comes to controlling environmental conditions, but if you're set on using a tank for aesthetic reasons, then a custom piece of plexiglass is definitely your best long-term option. Damp towels or aluminum foil work well short term, and a warm-mist humidifier placed near the tank will help as well. Also, if you can possibly cut back to one lamp and insulate the rest of the tank as was already stated, I would recommend that. When you say the temps were "a little on the cold side" what are we talking? 70-75? And how are you measuring the temps?

I have different ideas. First off tubs can be very hard to deal with to keep cool side and ambient temps correct in cool rooms most keep them in 'snake rooms' heated to 80ºF to maintain correct cool side and ambient air temps. I'd advise against it if the UTH cannot maintain the correct temps alone.

restricting air flow can lead to health issues often respiratory issues I'd again advise some caution doing this. Tanks do not vent well to begin with if doing so I'd never suggest blocking much more than the middle and then only half or less the surface area.

humid hides can solve all of the above the snake will use it when it needs.

The other method I personally use is substrate controlled. Like you have already figured out substrate choice will change the humidity. I'd recommend using coco coir (aka eco earth) in place of the cyprus. it will add a lot to the humidity but it too will dry out. I use a 'banked' method. The cool end has about 3 or 4 inches of substrate. The hot side has very little maybe 1/8 inch this helps keep the gradient. I 'water' the cool end I have a small tube that drop almost to the bottom where there is a shallow bowl (plant drip tray) adding a few ounces of water to this will moisen the substrate from below and will add a huge amount of humidity to the system. The substrate in the hide never gets 'wet' but isn't dusty dry either. This hold 55-65% for ten days with out anything on the screen top.

the third solution is this.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...arium-Solution
secondary heating is not super difficult but will need different ideas than what you are currently using.

I had the same problem so I wet a towel down pretty well, and wring it out just enough to where it doesnt drip everywhere, then I place it on the screen, and then place another towel over that one just to help keep the moisture evaporating down into the tank. Its been working for me very well. I soak it in the morning and again in the evening. My humidity hasn't dropped below 50 since I've been doing this. Hope you find a way to make it work!

ALSO: I attached a sponge to the top of his hide on the warm side, and wet it down once a day as well. I got a pack of 8 sponges for a little over $1 and I change them out every 5-6 days just in case they decide to go bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kitedemon

humid hides can solve all of the above the snake will use it when it needs.

---

That's true! I never think of humid hides, and they're so easy to make.

To the OP, you can take any plastic container that is appropriately sized for your bp and cut a big enough hole in the lid for your snake to fit through, then line the container with damp (not wet) sphagnum moss or paper towels. Your bp can go inside during shedding or any other time he feels the need :)

I switched to cypress mulch after dealing (well, currently treating) with an RI caused due to very low humidity. It works wonders, without getting too moist. Glad to see you're using that.

Also, I've done the tin-foil deal with the custom lid I made, and I have to say it doesn't look too bad. It does look makeshift, but if you have the right tank I'd say it would definitely work long term.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hydrolicious

I switched to cypress mulch after dealing (well, currently treating) with an RI caused due to very low humidity. It works wonders, without getting too moist. Glad to see you're using that.

Also, I've done the tin-foil deal with the custom lid I made, and I have to say it doesn't look too bad. It does look makeshift, but if you have the right tank I'd say it would definitely work long term.

---

I doubt the RI was caused by humidity in the 40% range - I think your vet is dead wrong.

As Alex advised, provide a humid hide. The risks of providing high humidty without adequate ventilation far outweigh any incorrectly perceived risks associated with moderately low humidity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skiploder

I doubt the RI was caused by humidity in the 40% range - I think your vet is dead wrong.

As Alex advised, provide a humid hide. The risks of providing high humidty without adequate ventilation far outweigh any incorrectly perceived risks associated with moderately low humidity.

---

As I said in my topic, I'll ask him again... However, I had plenty of ventilation(the 1/8 screening was UNCOVERED) at the time, so that was likely not the problem.

:D ok i think i have it nailed. here is what ive got. i got a piece of standard thickness plexiglass cut to fit so it sits right inside the frame of the sliding screen top. i cut six 1 1/2 inch holes for ventilation (two rows of three) that ventilate from the end of the cold side to the middle of the tank. i left some room to add more but so far its holding humidity and temp very well. i then cut two six inch holes over the hot end for my 5.5 inch deep domes. i now have a timer running my lights. i have a 100 watt day-blue bulb from zoo med running twelve hours in the day. the twelve hour night cycle is a 60 watt red night bulb also zoo med. i stayed with the cypress mulch, at least until it comes time to change it out. maybe ill experiment with substrates then. i also bought a zoo med reptifogger. i got this idea after seeing that even with a day range of about 80 on the floor of the cold side to 95 on the floor of the hot side, and 70 to 85 at night, when misted well it held humidity in the appropriate range all day (14+ hours). now with the fogger when it gets bellow fifty i give it a shot of fog to bring it up to 85 then i let it go. it drops from 85 to 75 pretty quick (probably the substrate soaking up some) then hangs the rest of the day between 75 and about normally down to 45 or 50 the next morning. also i got myself two exo-terra digital thermometers and an exo-terra digital hygrometer to moniter conditions. now my snake has a nice morning fog and humidity spike just like what would happen in an african temperate forest i'd imagine :)

i knew if i kept tweaking things i could get a setup that didnt require 4+ mists a day and held steady warm temps the plexiglass insert idea came from a friend who keeps tarantulas. i just tweaked it a little. also i guess i should note, even though i feel kinda dumb... back when i was running a single 100 watt on an open screen, with no night bulb, i turned the thermostat in the bedroom up to 75 degrees. i forgot this untill i was sweating bullets in there setting up foggers and thermometer probes etc. it was still on the warm side with a single 100 watt day bulb and the plexiglass insert, so i turned it back to 68 where it normally is, and it has stabilized at a great temp. range. i know electric heat also kills humidity, and costs money, so that made me smile...

one last side note... i was concerned about the restricted airflow, until i turned on the fogger and saw how it swirls throughout and around the tank. this tells me there are some good air currents moving around in there. at least it seems so from the way the fog flows down the cold side and across to the hot side, back up that side wall and then across the top and around again...

i hope these details help anyone who stumbles on the same dilemma i was in. im still pretty new at this, but my bp eats every four or five days like a little pig and that has to count for something. if anyone has any questions about any of this feel free to write me. also, i havent figured out how to get pics on here, but if you search for Loren Bitner (thats me) on facebook i have some pics of the snake and stuff there, or search for "Rockelle takes her first meal at home" on youtube to see my baby girl eat for the first time in her new home with me.

It seems like you just went out and bought stuff with little thought and without reading some of the advice people have posted; no offense intended, but it seems that way from what you changed before asking if its for the best.

Anyway, your humidity is way too high. These guys aren't tree-frogs, they're snakes that live in frickin' AFRICA. 75-85 is far too high, even during shed. Your're going to give your snake RI, and I know from experience that it sucks. Having a sick snake is pretty heart-wrenching. All of a sudden you see various alien behavior, and you start to freak out - not good at all. Misting the tank that many times a day, and with a fogger to boot, isn't necessary. Humidity should be around 50-60%, 60-70% during shed ONLY.

Also, the 12 hour heat cycle you have going there is only recommended for breeding to trick the females into thinking it's their season, as far as I've read. Otherwise it's completely unhealthy. You're going to need a hotspot of 88-92 degrees at all times, along with a cool end of 78-80 and ambient of 84-85. 75 is too cold and 95 is too hot. No fluctuating temps, they're not made like humans. They can deal with a little, but a 10 degree drop all around isn't ideal.

If you have the money to buy all of that, you have the money to buy an entirely plastic enclosure that keeps heat and humidity in WITHOUT ALL THAT EFFORT at the proper levels. Might I suggest the T1 here: http://www.animalplastics.com/ I'm saving up for that, it seems ideal for a full grown BP and is the most cost effective out of all commercial reptile enclosures. I recommend doing that or finding something similar, and returning all of the stuff you went out and bought.

Ok, as I stated before, when the humidity drops below 50 I'll fog it. This takes about a day. I fog to 85 because it drops ten percent in ten minutes or less. I think you mis understood what I meant. I was misting 4 plus times when I was running 2 lights with an open top. Now I have the top sealed up just enough that it holds heat with just one light at a time, thus not baking my mulch until its dry as a popcorn fart. If I wanted I could get the same result in humidity by one good spraying in the morning. The fogger simply lets me do it without taking the lid off. As far as the day/night temperature cycle, all the books, caresheets etc. that I've read said twelve on twelve off. Change to sixteen on, eight off to trick them into breeding. Everything I've read also said a gradient of 80 to 90. The reading of 95 is right under the lamp. Inside the snakes warm hide I'm guessing its just right because she has a warm and a cool hide, and she favors the warm one throughout the day. She doesn't cruise around restless. And that at night the temp can drop to around 75 as long as a basking spot of 80 to 85 is available. I'll check my research again, but please don't think I just went out and bought a bunch of neat looking stuff without careful thought about how it would all work together to create a mini habitat. I looked at the t1 you suggested and I'm sorry but I love looking at my snake in a somewhat natural setting too much to just put it in a black plastic box or a tote or anything like that. I realize a lot of folks on here use these, but I can't bring myself to put such a pretty animal in something like that as if it was extra blankets or christmas decorations or something. In my humble opinion if you are gonna keep an animal captive, the least you can do is give it an enclosure that mimics its natural habitat as closely as humanly possible. That is what I'm aiming for.

I've kept balls for quite awhile now.... I know that doesn't mean anything to you but I feel like with a healthy colony of 60 plus and hatchlings every season I must be doing something right. Anyways, the differences between plastic and glass aside here's the things I would change ASAP.
1. Get rid of the bright lights. Try a radiant heat panel or even a ceramic heat emmiter. The bright lights are not only unnecessary but stressful. More stress equals a compromised immune system. Equals issues.
2. Keep heat on at optimal temps 24:7. Unless youre breeding there's no reason for a night drop. And for breeders the heat doesn't just get shut off its gradually dropped and a process. For some they don't even use a heat drop. Every single one of my breeders/ babies have heat and optimal conditions 24:7. No questions asked. Any less and you'll have an Ri within time.

I see what you're trying to accomplish by saying you want to mimic the natural world. But I just don't think you know enough about their actual habitat and habits in the wild to do that. Not saying you couldn't but what you are offering now is far far away from what these guys are experiencing out in Africa.
And in the end Wcs don't have the luxury of a human doting over them. Our pets and cb animals do. Let's do what's best for them and not what we think will make them feel more wild.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

I would dis agree with the lights issue myself there is no evidence that lights cause stress. My vet suggested that there is a new study being done suggesting something linking UVB and growth rates and skin health in nocturnal snakes. I personally can't find that yet and am waiting for the study so that is just a rumour at this point until there is some hard numbers. I do know for certain that the longest lived royal (47 years +) was kept with a day night cycle of light. (12 on 12 off)

That being said don't night drop and always maintain a hot spot. 75 is on the scary low side. The breeders I know whom use a night drop for breeding only drop ambient air temps and cool side surface temps and then only 3-4 degrees.

Every set up is different as every home has different conditions and challenges. Foggers generally speaking have bacteria issues and well raise a red flag, for me it is a band aid and not a real solution, there are better methods. There have been a number of suggestions that I personally think are better options.

While I understand your standpoint on the lights I'll just say that in the wild these animals are holed up in old termite mounds/ deep borrows during the day. Therefore lights pounding down on them daily will understandably make them uncomfortable IMO. Some are more adaptable than others. I have a couple that need black out boxes in my racks for even the daily natural light. I feel that natural light still gives them that day cycle without it being right in top of them making their enclosure uncomfortable.
I Have heard the same from my vet. "All captive animals need UVB" but I also look at the animal. Balls are quite private and secretive animals. They stay holed up in pitch black until they go out to hunt at night. With the animals I've had experience with, it just seems like the bright bright day bulbs tend to be too harsh on them.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

I'm not sure if this has been said or not, but a trick i came up with to help with humidity is to take some paper towel, put in on the screen soak it to the point that it is just about to start dripping or even let it drip a bit then cover it with tinfoil and a towel. My BP is in a 40 gallon tank and by doing this and misting once a day i can keep the humidity between 50%-60% even with a heat lamp on. And if the heat lamp is off it tends to get around 70%-80%.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hydrolicious

It seems like you just went out and bought stuff with little thought and without reading some of the advice people have posted; no offense intended, but it seems that way from what you changed before asking if its for the best.

Anyway, your humidity is way too high. These guys aren't tree-frogs, they're snakes that live in frickin' AFRICA. 75-85 is far too high, even during shed. Your're going to give your snake RI, and I know from experience that it sucks. Having a sick snake is pretty heart-wrenching. All of a sudden you see various alien behavior, and you start to freak out - not good at all. Misting the tank that many times a day, and with a fogger to boot, isn't necessary. Humidity should be around 50-60%, 60-70% during shed ONLY.

Also, the 12 hour heat cycle you have going there is only recommended for breeding to trick the females into thinking it's their season, as far as I've read. Otherwise it's completely unhealthy. You're going to need a hotspot of 88-92 degrees at all times, along with a cool end of 78-80 and ambient of 84-85. 75 is too cold and 95 is too hot. No fluctuating temps, they're not made like humans. They can deal with a little, but a 10 degree drop all around isn't ideal.

If you have the money to buy all of that, you have the money to buy an entirely plastic enclosure that keeps heat and humidity in WITHOUT ALL THAT EFFORT at the proper levels. Might I suggest the T1 here: http://www.animalplastics.com/ I'm saving up for that, it seems ideal for a full grown BP and is the most cost effective out of all commercial reptile enclosures. I recommend doing that or finding something similar, and returning all of the stuff you went out and bought.

---

These guys live in termite mounds, with 100% humidity year round. Humidity is fine, what you don't want is excess condensation, and dampness. Contrary to popular opinion, you can have high humidity WITHOUT a wet tub or terrarium. You just need proper ventilation.

75-80% is not too high so long as moisture is not building up to the degree where all the tubs/tank's sides are sopping. Regardless of what anyone says, it is your snake, and you need to do what is best for YOUR snake. These guys are much heartier then they are given credit for. If you have a UTH(regulated, obviously) you don't even need the lights. I would ditch the lights, get a proper cover that ventilates well, and maybe give the cage a quick misting if you notice humidity is dropping too low.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Homegrownscales

While I understand your standpoint on the lights I'll just say that in the wild these animals are holed up in old termite mounds/ deep borrows during the day. Therefore lights pounding down on them daily will understandably make them uncomfortable IMO. Some are more adaptable than others. I have a couple that need black out boxes in my racks for even the daily natural light. I feel that natural light still gives them that day cycle without it being right in top of them making their enclosure uncomfortable.
I Have heard the same from my vet. "All captive animals need UVB" but I also look at the animal. Balls are quite private and secretive animals. They stay holed up in pitch black until they go out to hunt at night. With the animals I've had experience with, it just seems like the bright bright day bulbs tend to be too harsh on them.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

---

I feel it is open for debate I know there are ongoing studies with corns and UVB that are showing differences but it is unclear how important they are. however there is well documented ground evidence of royals out in the early morning sun and late afternoon. Nocturnal yes most of the activity is during the night but not all of the activity is.

The termite mound issue is a second partial myth. They are often found in some areas in termite mounds but living solely? No. It is easy to prove the population density in Togo of royals exceeds, termite mounds, by more than 50% so unless you believe royals to be social snakes, many living in one mound, half must be else where.

High humidity and poor air flow is KNOWN to be a cause of respiratory issues. Documented by some of the best known herp vets and researchers around. (Dr. J Rossi and Dr. R Klingenburg for example) There are other causes, and many guesses but this one is certain. Using restricted air flow and high humidity is begging trouble down the road.

The whole debate is actually fairly silly as there is a easy and simple option that is being ignored. humid hides.

some of you are confusing the hell out of me. as far as humidity goes, i have that problem solved now. but i am confused about the day night temperature cycle. why do some of you say that the temperature shouldnt drop at night? how/where did you learn this? is there a book or website where i can read this for myself? i mean you all NO DISRESPECT, but honestly if you google "ball python care sheet" and read all the different results they all say the same thing, and it isn't "keep temperature the same through day and night". i realize a lot of you have been keeping these animals for years and i have only had mine a short time, so i am trying to remain teachable, but its kinda hard with all the conflicting info. also for what its worth, ball pythons are crepuscular, meaning most active at dawn and dusk. and they live in lots of places in their range. rodent burrows, rocky outcrops, termite mounds, under dead trees... as you can imagine, rocky outcrops probably dont have nearly as much humidity as a termite mound, the temperature range probably differs a good deal as well. and the snakes keep on truckin. I'm starting to get the idea that there really is no right or wrong, black or white answer to a lot of these questions. i'm guessing it has more to do with what seems to keep the snake in good spirits (eating, good sheds, good bowel movements, not cruising the tank restlessly like it needs to find a way out or find something it doesnt have...)

You can stick a ball python in a tank with no heat and no hides and feed it once a month and it will probably still survive and live for quite a while. They are VERY hardy creatures, which is why they survive so well out in the wild as you clearly pointed out. The point of this forum and this caresheet is to explain the sliding scale of requirements to keep your ball python living healthy and stress free to the best of our abilities. I've only been on this forum for about a year, but I proud to say I would NEVER go anywhere else for information on most herps. The people, the caresheets, the mods and admins all have a deep passion for these animals, and all info given on most threads have been tested out over and over by members for years.

Day/night drop temps are not necessary because they are primarily used to stimulate breeding. Other than that, they bear no other use. It's a waste of bulbs, domes, and electricity, and in thermostats, it's a waste in a "night drop" function.

The reason there are so many members, and so many people successfully keeping healthy and stress free ball pythons is because we are different from google. I can google "flying cow" and I guarantee I'll get results. You can't trust everything you find on google. Not saying the caresheets you've came across aren't right, they just aren't ideal, and usually consist of misleading info.

Under the caresheet, under "Temps" it states "TEMPERATURE
~80F (ambient temps)
~90F (basking temps)
75 or below is unhealthy
Night drops in temps are not necessary or desired

Maintaining proper temperatures is essential to keeping your ball python healthy – failure to do so can lead to a host of issues from poor feeding to potentially lethal respiratory infections. For this reason you want to make sure you are able to measure the temperatures accurately. The sticker-type thermometers used in aquariums, and the little dials usually found in pet stores are routinely inaccurate and do little more than measure the temps of the glass to which they are adhered. Do yourself and your ball python a favor and invest in a digital thermometer. One of the most cost-effective and easily available is the Accu-Rite digital thermometer/hygrometer combo available at large stores such as Wal-Mart. These retail for less than $15 and include a probe making it possible to monitor the warm side and cool side temps as well as the humidity levels all simultaneously."

Hope I answered your question :)

Lgray that was an Amazing answer! You go girl....
I x 2 everything she just said.

Mainly I use my experience. When I first started out I did the google thing. Let me tell you within 3 months I had an Ri on my hands. And no it's not fun. To totally skip all those issues by using others experiences is a god send. Use it to your advantage.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

OP new studies and new ideas change all the time. It often takes time for care sheets to catch up.

Look at new care sheets that are not 10 and 20 years old.


http://www.theurbanpython.com/caring-ball-python
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ius)-Caresheet
http://www.reptileknowledge.com/care/bp-cage-setup.php

thank you kitedemon. i apreciate those links. after reading them, i adjusted things a bit, and now i got it to 78on the cold, 91 on the hot. im thinking of returning the fogger too. other than a cool looking effect when showing off my snake, it doesnt do much... the tank stays at 51 or 52 all the time now, probably just from the waterbowl. but at least i can feel good knwing my baby girl has proper conditions. just got done feeding and wanted everyone to know that as stated in my thread about strange feeding habits, yes the snake will strike, constrict, and swallow a dead mouse, coiled around my arm the whole time like a tree python. i need to find a cameraman to help me get it on film. that little snake is the best feeder ive ever had of all the snakes ive ever had. she's got spunk... hope y'all have a great day.