Is the BP Market ready for another breeder?

I have been doing a lot of research all over the place... I have seen prices so low on BPs that I don't think it's wise for me to think about being a "hobby breeder" I have heard of people putting normal males and even some breeders putting ALL normals in the freezer and killing them... Just to eliminate the extra "worthless" mouth to feed... that left me speechless! and angry! if breeders can't sell the animals for more than the cost of upkeep which is a lot higher than $10 for a normal! REALLY? $10!?!? is the going price right now!? I wanted to breed just so I can have more morphs in MY collection but knowing that the normals and hets that i would rather sell are "Worthless" I am completely turned off the whole idea! I Really want to breed for a lot more reasons than that as well... but mostly I'm pissed that breeders feel the need to kill perfect specimens because it is less expensive...:mad:

$10 is the wholesale price for ball pythons. Most breeders do not wholesale their animals, so you don't need to worry about that. If you sell the animals individually you can easily get anywhere from $25 - $75 each depending on whom you sell to.

I haven't heard of breeders killing normals just because they aren't worth the money, but I suppose it's possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atherosdragon

I have been doing a lot of research all over the place...

I have heard of people putting normal males and even some breeders putting ALL normals in the freezer and killing them... Just to eliminate the extra "worthless" mouth to feed... :

---

Would love to see your sources on all this research about breeders freezing the normals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atherosdragon

but knowing that the normals and hets that i would rather sell are "Worthless" I am completely turned off the whole idea!

---

If you consider normals and hets to be worthless just because of what others may or may not think, I agree you probably shouldn't breed.

Im pretty sure ts was talking from the breeders view when they said worthless.

Btw I know a couple large breeders who freeze off 100's of normal and hets every year. Im not supporting it but ts didnt pull that claim out of thin air.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by that_dc5

Btw I know a couple large breeders who freeze off 100's of normal and hets every year.

---

I've heard that too. And it's heart breaking. A lot of my collection are hets, basically because I want the pleasure of breeding animals into my own collection, and quite frankly, I can't afford a lot of the higher priced visuals. I'm sure a lot of new collector-breeders start off in the same boat and would happily pay for hets.

That is absolutely horrifying...no joke I almost cried at this...and i'm a man I never cry. How could they be so cruel =/ Normals are not worthless and deserve to be healthy and happy not put in a freezer! If you're gonna kill them anyways why would you not just give them away for free to people that want them?! I am absolutely outraged, what the hell is wrong with these people?!

Give us the names of these breeders that cull normals or stop spreading the rumors!

It seems nearly every day someone new chimes in and says "I've heard big breeders cull normals." It's odd, I've yet to come across someone actually naming a breeder who has done so.

Just because a buddy of yours tells you he heard from the neighbor of a friend of his brother's wife's cousin that big breeders cull normals doesn't make it true.

The big names in this industry are big because they are passionate about their animals. I can't see any of the big breeders culling normals. The thousands of normal ball pythons that are imported from Africa each year tells us that there is still a huge demand for them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

Give us the names of these breeders that cull normals or stop spreading the rumors!

It seems nearly every day someone new chimes in and says "I've heard big breeders cull normals." It's odd, I've yet to come across someone actually naming a breeder who has done so.

Just because a buddy of yours tells you he heard from the neighbor of a friend of his brother's wife's cousin that big breeders cull normals doesn't make it true.

The big names in this industry are big because they are passionate about their animals. I can't see any of the big breeders culling normals. The thousands of normal ball pythons that are imported from Africa each year tells us that there is still a huge demand for them.

---

I never said I know someone who knows someone who knows someone. I know him. I know the man who tells his workers to freeze them. I will NOT give out his name as wrong as his actions are. But my.claims are far from bs.... Btw just cus big breeders say they dont, doesnt mean they dont behind closed doors.

Once yet again, I am not approving of the act, but it happens and you just gotta deal with it. Unfortunately its just something that comes with the territory. Some of these large breeders dont have time to sit & try and sell normals for $30.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

Give us the names of these breeders that cull normals or stop spreading the rumors!

It seems nearly every day someone new chimes in and says "I've heard big breeders cull normals." It's odd, I've yet to come across someone actually naming a breeder who has done so.

Just because a buddy of yours tells you he heard from the neighbor of a friend of his brother's wife's cousin that big breeders cull normals doesn't make it true.

The big names in this industry are big because they are passionate about their animals. I can't see any of the big breeders culling normals. The thousands of normal ball pythons that are imported from Africa each year tells us that there is still a huge demand for them.

---

Here's where I read first read about it.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ealthy-Animals

As well as other posts referring to other websites (ks, fauna) with similar discussions. I've also seen testimonials from former employees. Is it possible they were disgruntled? Sure. Is it possible they were actually telling the truth? Sure.

You assume that every breeder is a reputable breeder. Not every breeder is in it to further the species along. Not every breeder loves their animals or has a passion for bps.

Wow! I have heard of breeders doing this as well, but it still makes me sick. If you can't find respect for the normal BP's, then you are breeding for all thre wrong reasons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DemmBalls

Wow! I have heard of breeders doing this as well, but it still makes me sick. If you can't find respect for the normal BP's, then you are breeding for all thre wrong reasons.

---

Agreed. I'd gladly take any female normals no matter, they will always be useful for breeding.

I dont know of any breeder freezing healthy animals at all. There is always a market for normal balls in the pet trade at pet stores etc. I usually wholesale my normals to local pet stores or sell them off on craigslist or in groups on ks. I think if your planning on breeding just to produce normals to try and make money then this may not be the hobby for you. There is a market for every morph out there. If your looking to get into it to make money then you have to work with animals that are worth money to begin with. I agree that if your gonna make claims you need to provide proof otherwise keep it to yourself cause noone is gonna agree with your claims on an online forum without proof. I understand not wanting to chuck anyone under the bus but you gotta keep it to yourself if your not willing to provide the proof. All the breeders i know love what they do and have more respect for the animals to just freeze healthy animals just to cull out the so called worthless animals. Im not saying it doesnt happen and if it is happenning and you know about it i wouldnt deal with that breeder cause hes obviouslly in it just for his own personal gain and doesnt care at all about his animals so that brings up the issue of if hes breeding quality or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snake lab

I dont know of any breeder freezing healthy animals at all. There is always a market for normal balls in the pet trade at pet stores etc. I usually wholesale my normals to local pet stores or sell them off on craigslist or in groups on ks. I think if your planning on breeding just to produce normals to try and make money then this may not be the hobby for you. There is a market for every morph out there. If your looking to get into it to make money then you have to work with animals that are worth money to begin with. I agree that if your gonna make claims you need to provide proof otherwise keep it to yourself cause noone is gonna agree with your claims on an online forum without proof. I understand not wanting to chuck anyone under the bus but you gotta keep it to yourself if your not willing to provide the proof. All the breeders i know love what they do and have more respect for the animals to just freeze healthy animals just to cull out the so called worthless animals. Im not saying it doesnt happen and if it is happenning and you know about it i wouldnt deal with that breeder cause hes obviouslly in it just for his own personal gain and doesnt care at all about his animals so that brings up the issue of if hes breeding quality or not.

---

Good points. And in all fairness, most of the big breeders are working with such specific morphs, and visuals as well, that they probably don't have the large amounts of normals that a hobby breeder does. And those normals can always be sold as pets.

But again, not all breeders are on the up-and-up. It's similar to puppy mills giving good, reputable dog breeders an unfairly tarnished reputation.

It only takes a few bad breeders to screw things up for the good guys out there.

I don't personally know of anyone who freezes their normal babies. And I know a lot of folks in this industry. I either place normal males in pet homes or I wholesale them to a local pet store who sells them for $75 a pop. I have no problems selling my normal females or even my poss hets. The day my clown clutch hatched, all the poss het females sold to one buyer who contacted me immediately. I had three other inquiries on them on the same day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JulieInNJ

Here's where I read first read about it.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ealthy-Animals

---

That specific case while about culling healthy animals is a bit different, two very different world sort of speak when it comes to BP and Designer/Intergrade Carpets

Anyway still very wrong either way.


Now as far as BP, I don't think normals are worthless they are more often than not the very first snake new snake owners will acquire opening the door to a fascinating world and that to me is priceless.

There is a demand for normals hence all the imports, I never had any problem selling mine and as far as selling there are two options selling at retail price which might take a while especially if you do not do shows or wholesaling them.

To me when you breed you are responsible and if you can't afford to keep it should it not sell, you shouldn't produce it to start with.

Another breeder isn't going to affect the BP market, no matter what you think.

As for the breeder that you know that is freezing the normals, he is a sick twisted person and should not be breeding at all.

End of discussion.

I don't know any breeder that admits to freezing their healthy normals or hets.

I know what I do.

I sell them to petstores, I sell them at shows, or I give them to friends that can use them.

I know plenty of other breeders that do the same.

I have frozen animals that were not able to survive for whatever reason, and it is not a fun thing to do.

But the problem that I see is that even if just one person has admitted to doing it, that doesn't mean the entire industry does.

Take everything you hear on the internet and in gossip with a grain of salt.. Things can be misconstrued very quickly and spread like wildfire.

And know that no matter what happens, if you breed, you will not always get what you want. If you can't handle that, you need to revisit a few things within yourself and not blame the animals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LadyOhh

And know that no matter what happens, if you breed, you will not always get what you want. If you can't handle that, you need to revisit a few things within yourself and not blame the animals.

---

But... if you try sometimes you might find that you get what you need :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

But... if you try sometimes you might find that you get what you need :D

---

Awesome, lol!!!

I don't want to produce more normals but there are plenty of petstores that will buy them if I do. I get calls constantly for normals from local petshops. I don't know anyone freezing normal babies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

But... if you try sometimes you might find that you get what you need :D

---

I actually wanted to link that song from YouTube, but I'm at work and can't get on... ;)

In regards to dc5 and the breeder he knows that culls normals, I would strongly suggest that if you feel uncomfortable telling us who he is (only assuming it's a he because you referred to him as such in your posts), you have him come on the forums to identify himself.

My thought is that the only reason why this breeder would not make it public knowledge that he culls normals is that he knows that his actions are wrong. If he didn't think it was wrong, he could surely make an argument for himself that would bypass any serious, at at least widespread, condemnation. People should be aware of the practices of breeders that they're buying from, and unless breeders are transparent about these things, there's really no telling. I'm not saying these things because I want to see the guy crucified on the forums, I simply think if one decides to cull normals, they better have a well thought out reason to do so.

Anywho, these are just my thoughts about it. I think a name would be very valuable, as would an explanation from your breeder friend. If the breeder is too afraid or ashamed to do so in a public forum, my only conclusion would be that he himself knows what he's doing is wrong, and doesn't want to lose business as a result of his actions. If even he recognizes that what he is doing is gray, I don't think anyone, friend or foe, should be protecting him.

Cheers,
-Matt

you gotta be a sick pup to kill off healthy snakes i just give them away most of the time or i make rm for the ones i cant.

I don't doubt that there are people in this world that are stupid enough to freeze off their healthy normals. I have a hard time believing that the practice is widespread, particularly with large breeders. A large scale breeder produces snakes to make money. Those normals are worth money. They are still a source of income, particularly if you get a lot of them. Say they get 20 normals......who do you know that would throw away $200 bucks? A large scale breeder might produce hundreds, and that is a lot of profit to be tossing in a freezer and throwing away.

I have heard of possible hets sold as normals from a guy I know who buys them for his pet shop. If it's not a new morph and a visual male breeder is relatively inexpensive, I can see it happening. After all, how much is someone going to pay for a 50% het albino male? 100% het albino and pied males are going for very little and don't seem to be easy to move. But even if it's being sold as a normal that is still money in the breeder's pocket and the breeders who I know don't despise money.

I didn't realize that by saying I know someone who is a breeder who freezes their normals i would have to give you their name or have them come onto the site to get flogged by all of you i'll keep it to myself from now on i really am sorry

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atherosdragon

I didn't realize that by saying I know someone who is a breeder who freezes their normals i would have to give you their name or have them come onto the site to get flogged by all of you i'll keep it to myself from now on i really am sorry

---

I don't think anyone meant to flog you. :) It's just a very touchy subject.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matt K

My thought is that the only reason why this breeder would not make it public knowledge that he culls normals is that he knows that his actions are wrong.

---

I don't make it public knowledge to my neighbors that I keep numerous snakes. Is that because I know my actions are 'wrong'?

Here's a hypothetical:

What if someone wanted to sell off the normals as feeders?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matt K

In regards to dc5 and the breeder he knows that culls normals, I would strongly suggest that if you feel uncomfortable telling us who he is (only assuming it's a he because you referred to him as such in your posts), you have him come on the forums to identify himself.

My thought is that the only reason why this breeder would not make it public knowledge that he culls normals is that he knows that his actions are wrong. If he didn't think it was wrong, he could surely make an argument for himself that would bypass any serious, at at least widespread, condemnation. People should be aware of the practices of breeders that they're buying from, and unless breeders are transparent about these things, there's really no telling. I'm not saying these things because I want to see the guy crucified on the forums, I simply think if one decides to cull normals, they better have a well thought out reason to do so.

Anywho, these are just my thoughts about it. I think a name would be very valuable, as would an explanation from your breeder friend. If the breeder is too afraid or ashamed to do so in a public forum, my only conclusion would be that he himself knows what he's doing is wrong, and doesn't want to lose business as a result of his actions. If even he recognizes that what he is doing is gray, I don't think anyone, friend or foe, should be protecting him.

Cheers,
-Matt

---

I disagree; I want to see the name of the person doing this, AND I want to see him crucified on any forum that he is a member of! RIGHT HERE is where we as reptile lovers need to step up and dispell the myth or condemn the offender BEFORE the general public/press gets ahold of this! WE DON'T NEED ANY MORE BAD PRESS!!
It's already been a bad year for us, try not to make it worse.

My apologies to the OP, I didn't mean to help hijack his thread!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Redneck_Crow

I have heard of possible hets sold as normals from a guy I know who buys them for his pet shop. If it's not a new morph and a visual male breeder is relatively inexpensive, I can see it happening. After all, how much is someone going to pay for a 50% het albino male? 100% het albino and pied males are going for very little and don't seem to be easy to move.

---

That's what I do...

Convincing people that they need Het Males is almost like convincing them that they need Normals. It's not easy when people are out to make morphs quickly.

the question is are you ready financially to support feeding\housing\heating etc. If so then go for it. The money is what ever but producing snakes youve always wanted yourself is what its all about. Goodluck in what ever you do. Normals are just as valuable to me as any other morph. Ill keep the females and sell or give them to friends I know who want snakes. I sold a 66% het ghost male hatchling to a friend of mine about a year back maybe longer and she absolutely adores him. So for anyone to just freeze them off is retarded imo. But everyone has there reasons.

Ive heard of people using their normals as prey items. There are plenty of animals that eat snakes including other snakes. Id much rather see a ball python being eaten than frozen because of his color mutation, or lack thereof. Ive been fortunate not to worry about this subject. I wholesale all of my normals out.

People want is name because they dont want to support (buy from him). If you are so against what hedoes why let all us buy from being we dont know who your speaking of. If you loomat it that way you do support him because you may not buy from him, but you will let every othet member on bp.net buy from him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atherosdragon

I didn't realize that by saying I know someone who is a breeder who freezes their normals i would have to give you their name or have them come onto the site to get flogged by all of you i'll keep it to myself from now on i really am sorry

---

My post wasn't directed at you, and I specifically said I didn't want to see a public flogging, just a reasonable explanation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainbutter

I don't make it public knowledge to my neighbors that I keep numerous snakes. Is that because I know my actions are 'wrong'?

Here's a hypothetical:

What if someone wanted to sell off the normals as feeders?

---

I'm not saying that everyone needs to make public everything they do, or that everything anyone does in private is wrong. I'm simply saying that if someone is completely unwilling to disclose reasons behind their actions, or even disclose actions at all, especially in.a consumer based industry, there might be a reason for it. As to the hypothetical, I would say that breeding snakes for feeders is a perfectly valid and worthwhile explanation for why one might cull snakes. I'm merely saying that if there is such a reasonable explaination, the breeder shouldn't be afraid to share it with the community.

Anyhow, I was never trying to sound aggressive or demanding in any way, just giving my input. No hard feelings towards anyone posting here.

Cheers,
-Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snake lab

I dont know of any breeder freezing healthy animals at all. There is always a market for normal balls in the pet trade at pet stores etc. I usually wholesale my normals to local pet stores or sell them off on craigslist or in groups on ks. I think if your planning on breeding just to produce normals to try and make money then this may not be the hobby for you. There is a market for every morph out there. If your looking to get into it to make money then you have to work with animals that are worth money to begin with. I agree that if your gonna make claims you need to provide proof otherwise keep it to yourself cause noone is gonna agree with your claims on an online forum without proof. I understand not wanting to chuck anyone under the bus but you gotta keep it to yourself if your not willing to provide the proof. All the breeders i know love what they do and have more respect for the animals to just freeze healthy animals just to cull out the so called worthless animals. Im not saying it doesnt happen and if it is happenning and you know about it i wouldnt deal with that breeder cause hes obviouslly in it just for his own personal gain and doesnt care at all about his animals so that brings up the issue of if hes breeding quality or not.

---

You don't have to believe anything anyone said. We are free to say as we please and don't need to provide proof. This is a forum, which is for people to trade ideas, thoughts, and information. If you choose not to believe that I know a larger scale breeder who does freeze their normals, then so be it. But it is my perogative to mention their name. If anyone finds it offensive then they probably should browse the forums very carefully, because I see many things that may be considered "offensive".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainbutter

Here's a hypothetical:

What if someone wanted to sell off the normals as feeders?

---

Being frozen to be shipped out as feeders is a huge difference from freezing them just because you can't sell it (ethically speaking).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jmitch

People want is name because they dont want to support (buy from him).

---

That would be the reason I would want to know names. I would never want to patronize someone who would euthanize otherwise healthy animals because they didn't fit into their business models.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matt K

My post wasn't directed at you, and I specifically said I didn't want to see a public flogging, just a reasonable explanation.



I'm not saying that everyone needs to make public everything they do, or that everything anyone does in private is wrong. I'm simply saying that if someone is completely unwilling to disclose reasons behind their actions, or even disclose actions at all, especially in.a consumer based industry, there might be a reason for it. As to the hypothetical, I would say that breeding snakes for feeders is a perfectly valid and worthwhile explanation for why one might cull snakes. I'm merely saying that if there is such a reasonable explaination, the breeder shouldn't be afraid to share it with the community.

Anyhow, I was never trying to sound aggressive or demanding in any way, just giving my input. No hard feelings towards anyone posting here.

Cheers,
-Matt

---

:gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matt K

In regards to dc5 and the breeder he knows that culls normals, I would strongly suggest that if you feel uncomfortable telling us who he is (only assuming it's a he because you referred to him as such in your posts), you have him come on the forums to identify himself.

My thought is that the only reason why this breeder would not make it public knowledge that he culls normals is that he knows that his actions are wrong. If he didn't think it was wrong, he could surely make an argument for himself that would bypass any serious, at at least widespread, condemnation. People should be aware of the practices of breeders that they're buying from, and unless breeders are transparent about these things, there's really no telling. I'm not saying these things because I want to see the guy crucified on the forums, I simply think if one decides to cull normals, they better have a well thought out reason to do so.

Anywho, these are just my thoughts about it. I think a name would be very valuable, as would an explanation from your breeder friend. If the breeder is too afraid or ashamed to do so in a public forum, my only conclusion would be that he himself knows what he's doing is wrong, and doesn't want to lose business as a result of his actions. If even he recognizes that what he is doing is gray, I don't think anyone, friend or foe, should be protecting him.

Cheers,
-Matt

---

I understand where you are coming from. ONCE YET AGAIN, I do NOT agree with freezing them. I do feel, normals are valuable, whether it be for breeding purposes or pet purposes. But I will not give out his name, and I will not ask him to come on to the forums for him to state what he does. Who would do that? Lol. Now him freezing normals is not something he goes around saying, but it is something that is done and believe when I say he isn't the only one. I can almost guarantee that many, many, MANY breeders do this. Just because no one has claimed they do, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Unfortunately this hobby deals with live animals and not everyone is always going to agree with certain things being done to these animals and that's ok. Same way normals get frozen, I have also heard of someone having other people sell his defected snakes at shows with no name so they don't know it came from him. Now this is just a story I heard, I don't know the person who supposedly did that, and I don't know how true that story is. But supposedly he had a bunch of women set up a random booth at an expo and sold w.e snakes he had that had deformities and what not, without saying they belonged to him. Do I agree with that? No. Is it right? Not exactly. But it happens. Unfortunately not everyone high integrity when they do things. And this applies to EVERYTHING. Not everyone is an honest, reputable person.

And if I offended anyone, I am sincerely sorry for knowing someone who does that :rolleyes:, I did not choose to meet this person, nor did I ask what he did with his normals. This is just info I came across, and i am sharing it with the forums on a topic related to it. I was using him as an example, I was trying to start a commotion with what he does.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by that_dc5

I understand where you are coming from. ONCE YET AGAIN, I do NOT agree with freezing them. I do feel, normals are valuable, whether it be for breeding purposes or pet purposes. But I will not give out his name, and I will not ask him to come on to the forums for him to state what he does. Who would do that? Lol. Now him freezing normals is not something he goes around saying, but it is something that is done and believe when I say he isn't the only one. I can almost guarantee that many, many, MANY breeders do this. Just because no one has claimed they do, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Unfortunately this hobby deals with live animals and not everyone is always going to agree with certain things being done to these animals and that's ok. Same way normals get frozen, I have also heard of someone having other people sell his defected snakes at shows with no name so they don't know it came from him. Now this is just a story I heard, I don't know the person who supposedly did that, and I don't know how true that story is. But supposedly he had a bunch of women set up a random booth at an expo and sold w.e snakes he had that had deformities and what not, without saying they belonged to him. Do I agree with that? No. Is it right? Not exactly. But it happens. Unfortunately not everyone high integrity when they do things. And this applies to EVERYTHING. Not everyone is an honest, reputable person.

---

...and the ones who are not are the ones that don't need to be in the business of dealing with live animals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mikeandsheleen

...and the ones who are not are the ones that don't need to be in the business of dealing with live animals.

---

I am not disputing that either.

Below are the 2011 CITES export quotas for ball pythons.
(PDF can be found here: http://www.cites.org/common/quotas/2...Quotas2011.pdf)

I know not all of these go to the US, but I'm sure that all of the normals produced by all of the US breeders would barely make a dent in what is imported here. Even if I have to match import pricing it's more money than I would get sticking them in the freezer. I'm really just not sure how freezing them would make any sense :confused:

Benin
45,000 ranched
1,000 wild taken

Ghana
7,000 live, wild taken
60,000 live, ranched
200 live, captive bred

Niger
500 live, wild taken

Togo
1,500 wild taken
62,500 ranched

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the main purpose of wild caught imports was to get fresh genetics and genetic lines. That's why imported normals are valued more than normals produced from years of captive hatching/breeding - it's that unknown gene that you may stumble upon with a wc.

Again, I may be very wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JulieInNJ

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the main purpose of wild caught imports was to get fresh genetics and genetic lines. That's why imported normals are valued more than normals produced from years of captive hatching/breeding - it's that unknown gene that you may stumble upon with a wc.

Again, I may be very wrong.

---

I don't think that's the only reason. Stores like Petco and Petsmart have deals with importers and only sell captive hatched ball pythons as far as I know.

Also, I don't know how many people read Reptiles magazine but there was an interesting article recently that said freezing is no longer considered a humane way to euthanize a reptile. If I remember correctly (I'm at work and I don't have it in front of me), studies have found that ice crystals form on the brain causing pain as the animal dies. I know it's a little off topic, but since freezing seems to be an accepted form of euthanizing snakes I thought I'd bring it up.

Back in the day that was the case but it is alot harder for the average joe to get something special now that the industry is what it is. It is alot more profesional and thorough over there now. The guys getting the specials now are the guy with people in the field on the payroll

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by that_dc5

And if I offended anyone, I am sincerely sorry for knowing someone who does that :rolleyes:, I did not choose to meet this person, nor did I ask what he did with his normals. This is just info I came across, and i am sharing it with the forums on a topic related to it. I was using him as an example, I was trying to start a commotion with what he does.

---

Did you actually see this person cull animals this way? Or did they actually reveal this information to you directly?

If not, this just sounds like more hearsay spiraling out into ugly gossip.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinra

Also, I don't know how many people read Reptiles magazine but there was an interesting article recently that said freezing is no longer considered a humane way to euthanize a reptile. If I remember correctly (I'm at work and I don't have it in front of me), studies have found that ice crystals form on the brain causing pain as the animal dies. I know it's a little off topic, but since freezing seems to be an accepted form of euthanizing snakes I thought I'd bring it up.

---

Yes. There have been many discussions on the topic, including the one here.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...think-is-right

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

Did you actually see this person cull animals this way? Or did they actually reveal this information to you directly?

If not, this just sounds like more hearsay spiraling out into ugly gossip.

---

Lol you're right I woke up this morning and asked myself how I can start a huge debate on bp.net :rolleyes:. I'm not going on about this anymore. Believe what you want to believe, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Wow guys, I was unaware that people are only paying 10 buck for a normal.....I am in New Mexico, Albuquerque is about 3.5 hours from me, Lubbock and Amarillo texas are about 1.5 hrs from me. I have supplied baby normals to pet stores in all 3 cities. I have bought ball pythons from pet store wholesalers and they get a good bit more than that for wild caughts.... Quality pet supply in oklahoma city gets 25 for wild caughts. I will not take less than 15 a piece for my normals. Most of the time store owners are happy to buy them from me because they know the quality of the animals they get from me is better, they pay less and get animals that feed well. If I am going to a bigger city around me I make a few phone calls if I need to move some normal balls, boas, or geckos. Dont get me wrong it isnt just about money, I have walked out of more than one store and refused to sell them anything

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JulieInNJ

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the main purpose of wild caught imports was to get fresh genetics and genetic lines. That's why imported normals are valued more than normals produced from years of captive hatching/breeding - it's that unknown gene that you may stumble upon with a wc.

Again, I may be very wrong.

---

8 years ago maybe, now a days it's all big business and yes a few yellow bellies or unknown hets may come through but thats a needle in a haystack today.

I have been breeding reptiles for over 10 years and have never heard of anyone culling healthy animals whatsoever. Why when there is no no problem selling normals and pos hets to petstores, now market sizes can vary from city to city but like the import numbers above show, the reptile market keeps growing and is still very far from the mainstream pet market. Yes the imports are cheaper but many are mite infested, shipped in horrid conditions, have never fed and sadly many don't do well. Breeders can offer them established, feeding, healthier animals. Odds areI would say you have a significantly better chance of getting freebie hets from domestic captive hatched babies at the Pet store than any import as many breeders like myself sell pos hets wholesale as many today are worth the almost as much as normals, het ghosts and albinos are perfect examples.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

$10 is the wholesale price for ball pythons. Most breeders do not wholesale their animals, so you don't need to worry about that. If you sell the animals individually you can easily get anywhere from $25 - $75 each depending on whom you sell to.

I haven't heard of breeders killing normals just because they aren't worth the money, but I suppose it's possible.

---

I dont think breeders are killing normals they whole sale them off I sell my normals for $20 wholesale is cheaper,stop bringing all thye imports in if you want to see the prices go up there are enough out there right now that normals donot have to be taken from the wild. js