Breeder rep or looks?

I'm trying to start my collection and I want to be sure I have the right snakes for quality offspring, but I've run into a dilemma (real surprising since I'm a newb, huh?). I see really good looking snakes (from what I know) at sometimes much cheaper prices than the big breeders, but that could easily be a fluke that some beginner popped out, and then you look in big breeder sites and you'll see much uglier snakes but you know their gene-pool make quality snakes (the one offered that are a bit off are probably just the occasional ugly-duckling, so to speak). Now, producing quality animals is the most important thing, and I will wait a little longer to save up if I have to (I am on a budget), so what do you guys think is the best way for me to go?

Supporting any reputable breeder in this hobby is a good thing. If they have good quality animals but aren't "big", why hesitate? I wouldn't do business with someone who has a bad rep, and always check fauna BOI before doing business, but I know plenty of small time breeders with top of the line animals....

Well just because an animal isnt from BHB or Davis or NERD dosnt mean it's not worth buying. If you see a good example of a morph from a small breeder that looks great and the price is good then get it. Also just because a snake is pretty dosnt mean it will pass on it's beauty. You see this a lot in the pastel morphs. You can have a yellow as can be sire and dam that produce browned out babies. If you want to buy from the big breeders that's fine. I'm not telling you not to. But on some morphs you could buy just as nice of an animal from a small breeder. Honestly most of the time when you buy from the big boys your buying the name, not so much the morph.

Most of my balls I have gotten from breeders whom are really right in the middle of the tiers. IMHO. I don't want to buy a name if that animal Isnt the best quality animal.
I look for an animal that represents the morph the best in my eyes or has a certain quality I'm looking for. Sometimes the middle and smaller guys have a better higher quality animal. Sometimes not. I look for sellers that also have ethics, show pride in their animals and enjoy this hobby as much as I do.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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Originally Posted by Amon Ra Reptiles

Well just because an animal isnt from BHB or Davis or NERD dosnt mean it's not worth buying. If you see a good example of a morph from a small breeder that looks great and the price is good then get it. Also just because a snake is pretty dosnt mean it will pass on it's beauty. You see this a lot in the pastel morphs. You can have a yellow as can be sire and dam that produce browned out babies. If you want to buy from the big breeders that's fine. I'm not telling you not to. But on some morphs you could buy just as nice of an animal from a small breeder. Honestly most of the time when you buy from the big boys your buying the name, not so much the morph.

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That's kinda my dilemma. I'm by no means in a hurry to flush an extra $1-200 down the drain just for a name, but like you said, you could get a gorgeous snake and get a bunch of ugly omes out of it, and my whole thing was that is it worth it to spend more because it's much less likely to happen with the bigger name guys stock.

The big names weren't always big names. They were new breeders with top of the line gorgeous animals. People bought from them despite being relatively unknown and through good interactions and producing more beautiful animals, their reputations grew :)

The newer guys might not have the names, but who knows, they might be a big name someday, if they are producing awesome animals and have good business practices. If you talk to the guy and like him and really like the snake, I'd say go for it. We all have to start somewhere. :D

Someday when I have the money I want to get a very high end pastel to work on higher quality pastel combos. Right now the only pastels I've seen that have been to the standard I want have been from NERD, but if I saw one that was jaw droppingly gorgeous from a new breeder, sure I would probably buy from them--as long as the breeder didn't have a 'BAD' reputation!

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Originally Posted by Homegrownscales

Most of my balls I have gotten from breeders whom are really right in the middle of the tiers. IMHO. I don't want to buy a name if that animal Isnt the best quality animal.
I look for an animal that represents the morph the best in my eyes or has a certain quality I'm looking for. Sometimes the middle and smaller guys have a better higher quality animal. Sometimes not. I look for sellers that also have ethics, show pride in their animals and enjoy this hobby as much as I do.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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I've seen a couple guys that are a little more expensive, but you can see they've put out some really quality. high-end stuff, while still having real nice basic morphs, so they must be doing something right...this is probably where I'll end up.

This brings up another question though. take Wilbanks for example (he's all over this site), he sells all his morph/sex at one price. Well naturally all the pretty ones get snatched up first, but my question would be that since I really don't care if it's the most beautiful snake since its just for breeding would getting the "ugly duckling" of the batch still put out the same quality offspring as his prettier siblings??

I feel you on your dilemma I am an upstart producing animals in the 1k price range, and dont have a big name. I am not gonna give away my animals, but who is gonna trust me, my pics show the qulity of animal I have but who knows that I actually have it..

I am doing alot of trading, and giving out refferals to get my name out there, there are alot of us that dont have a big name, but our animals are high quality... For example, I put my black pewters up for sale, they were in the middle of what people were asking higher than the low, lower than the high, but these were awesom looking pewters no one really seemed interested, I called a bigger name to trade, he saw the pics and said he would be glad to resell them and I got a great trade.

That being said there are alot of us here that dont have huge names, but great animals. If you try an unknown person, keep records of the comunication from begining to end, I prefer talking on the phone you get to know someone better in my oppenion, but I fallow up phone calls with emails so I have documentation. People dont survive long in this buisness if they screw others over, especially if those people speak out

I would go with looks before rep. On that same note if I was going with a new breeder or a small time breeder I would try to find someone local so I can pick the animal up. So I know that is coming from a good home, and not one where it is under fed or housed in dirty cages.

That can swing both ways..............................

If its a visual..................always go by looks first.
IF its a het................. Rep will always play a HUGE part;)

To answer your second question: I would think one or two ugly snakes could pop out some hot holdbacks but is it really worth the chance??

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

To answer your second question: I would think one or two ugly snakes could pop out some hot holdbacks but is it really worth the chance??

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I was referring this only to a circumstance where its a pretty bigtime guy like Wilbanks and you have seen really good ones from the same batch.

I can't tell you what to do since ultimately it is up to YOU however here is what I do

I strive to get the best example of the morph I want that is my number 1# priority, my other priority is to buy it from someone reputable.

Big breeder, small breeder, big name person just starting out does not really matter as long as they have what I want, are reputable and have good ethics.

Most of my animals came from small breeders :gj:

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Originally Posted by Deborah

I can't tell you what to do since ultimately it is up to YOU however here is what I do

I strive to get the best example of the morph I want that is my number 1# priority, my other priority is to buy it from someone reputable.

Big breeder, small breeder, big name person just starting out does not really matter as long as they have what I want, are reputable and have good ethics.

Most of my animals came from small breeders :gj:

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Thx alot, that really helps alot.

So it's offsprings quality is more on what that one snake looks like than it's lineage?? If that's the case it looks like I'll be saving some money. :)

Now that I think about it it's pretty obvious....if 2 average looking people have great looking kid and the kid has eventually has one with another great looking person odds are their kid will be pretty damn good looking....maybe the odds aren't as great as with someone with generations of great looking people, but probably not worth paying 20-80% more.

On animals such as specials and spectors etc, animals also that are hets I would go with big names. Just because I would trust them more and would give me a piece of mind. IMO.

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Originally Posted by KingPythons

On animals such as specials and spectors etc, animals also that are hets I would go with big names. Just because I would trust them more and would give me a piece of mind. IMO.

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Thx. Yeah, anything involving Hets, or morphs that can mistaken for others (i.e. people selling Calicos as Sugars) I'll definitely make sure they're trustworthy.

:D That's exactly why I don't plan to play the het game when I start breeding! I want to reduce the amount of hets as much as possible when breeding early on by just buying visual recessives! Pied to pied, albino to albino, etc!

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Originally Posted by purplemuffin

:D That's exactly why I don't plan to play the het game when I start breeding! I want to reduce the amount of hets as much as possible when breeding early on by just buying visual recessives! Pied to pied, albino to albino, etc!

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ALOT more expensive that way. I want to eventually get into Hypos and Axanthics and the difference going het is huge....though if you can pull it off thats at least a year ahead you'd be, OTOH, puttin that money in hets and you'd have a stockpile of your own Pieds and Albinos after one season.....my 2c

Exactly like Homegrown said, it all depends on the animal you are looking at. Quality can be from small breeders. If the animals look good and are healthy and something you want to get into and the breeder takes care of their snakes then by all means go for it. I have NERD snakes and snakes from smaller breeders. They are all gorgeous and I chose them carefully for certain qualities and the breeders were all great to deal with, very knowledgeable and cared for their animals.

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Originally Posted by KingPythons

On animals such as specials and spectors etc, animals also that are hets I would go with big names. Just because I would trust them more and would give me a piece of mind. IMO.

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Well I guess people without a big name don't stand a chance, I assume you never plan on selling hets? And I guess the rest of us who do but don't have a big name are just not as trustworthy?

Not to rain on your parade here but a little food for the thoughts there have been instances in the past when hets from big breeders were switched by unscrupulous employees.....just saying.

Smaller breeders with smaller collections may actually spend more time with each animal than bigger breeders do and actually notice issues and keep things cleaner than it is possible for a big breeder. I am not saying that a big breeder does not care for the animals but open spot clean fresh water close next. Isn't the same as open lift out spot clean fresh water check the snake over and close. If you want to breed and are not interested in pets it doesn't matter much but if you actually want to handle a snake smaller breeders have likely handled the animals more and they don't need as long to adjust to people as some of the big breeders snakes may. Just something more to think on.

I think there is a more obvious point no one has mentioned. The OP was basically wondering if there is a difference in quality/genetics from a big name versus a little name. Such that a beginner popping out a pretty snake is a fluke. Big breeders and small breeders alike all have to get their snakes from somewhere. So a beginner who pops out a beautiful snake may have breeder animals from a big name and that big name may have gotten their original breeders from someone smaller who actually originated the morph, ect.. So you could buy from a beginner a snake who has direct lineage to a big breeder. But the kicker is that hot looking snake made by the big guy could come from a hot looking snake he picked up off a little guy.

So, I think it all comes down to the quality of the animal sitting in front of you. Big breeder, small breeder or beginner breeder can all make smoking hot animals. I think there are a lot of wild card factors that have a big influence on the quality of animal produced such as quality of the parents, husbandry, overall health and quality of food. So I think I will echo what a lot of people have already said that if the breeder (bog or small) has a great looking animal and a good reputation, I would not hesitate to buy. Now if the breeder was new and had no reputation, I may still consider getting the animal if it was something I wanted.

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Originally Posted by Deborah

Well I guess people without a big name don't stand a chance, I assume you never plan on selling hets? And I guess the rest of us who do but don't have a big name are just not as trustworthy?

Not to rain on your parade here but a little food for the thoughts there have been instances in the past when hets from big breeders were switched by unscrupulous employees.....just saying.

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I guess we didn't see the "IMO" ? I can't sell a het for nothing is what I'm learning. I'm not complaining I can care less because there's always folk that will take a ball python normal as pets even if I don't put het on it. I'm just saying if I cough up $2000 for a het super stripe with a small breeder and he/she ends up not being anything here's a list of things that can happen:

Well it's in ur collection and I don't want any germs or any health problems to come back to my collection

I don't remember the purchase even though you have paper work

I can't refund u

I can't give u an animal of similar value

Pretty much give you the run around. I'm not saying no one has a chance at all but a rep will play a good part. A person that cares would not do anything of the things that I stated above, they would sincerely apologize and accommodate some way some how for your trouble. So over all why would I want to worry about the animal I'm purchasing? I would rather be stress free IMO.

Here's a question about that one amazing snake that pops out. When a simply stunning perfect amazing ball pops out from 2 average looking parents who's lineage is pretty much average what are the chances that he or she will throw exceptional quality offspring or revert back to offspring more consistent off his lineage? I have had competition dogs,show and weightpull and usually when an awesome dog would come out of nowhere from an unknown or average line that stud would usually never come close to replicating himself unlike the great ones from known proven bloodlines. I currently have racing pigeons and its pretty much the same there. Now of course their are always exceptions that's how new lines and bloodlines are formed but its not the norm. Are snakes like this or is it different with them?

Being from a "Big name breeder" does not guarantee top quality genetics. Being from a "No name breeder" does not guarantee lesser quality genetics. When you buy, you should factor in what "you" think is the best looking example as well as the possible reputation that the breeder may have.

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Originally Posted by The Mad Baller

Here's a question about that one amazing snake that pops out. When a simply stunning perfect amazing ball pops out from 2 average looking parents who's lineage is pretty much average what are the chances that he or she will throw exceptional quality offspring or revert back to offspring more consistent off his lineage? I have had competition dogs,show and weightpull and usually when an awesome dog would come out of nowhere from an unknown or average line that stud would usually never come close to replicating himself unlike the great ones from known proven bloodlines. I currently have racing pigeons and its pretty much the same there. Now of course their are always exceptions that's how new lines and bloodlines are formed but its not the norm. Are snakes like this or is it different with them?

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This is pretty much exactly what I was trying to say....

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

Being from a "Big name breeder" does not guarantee top quality genetics. Being from a "No name breeder" does not guarantee lesser quality genetics. When you buy, you should factor in what "you" think is the best looking example as well as the possible reputation that the breeder may have.

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So you should take both into account then?

Agreed. With Hets, I go with breeders with good rep and paperwork. For visuals, as long as price is fair, snake looks good, healthy, eats good, and mite free then i dont really care who its from. A small local breeder that only hatches out a few animals a year can still produce great animals.

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Originally Posted by Brion99

ALOT more expensive that way. I want to eventually get into Hypos and Axanthics and the difference going het is huge....though if you can pull it off thats at least a year ahead you'd be, OTOH, puttin that money in hets and you'd have a stockpile of your own Pieds and Albinos after one season.....my 2c

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True, but I'm not ever planning on having racks and racks of snakes :D I'd like to keep my breeding group small, and I don't want to invest in animals I will end up having to sell or rehome because the don't fit into my breeding plan anymore as I have 'better' versions, so for males especially I don't want to get something that's just a single gene or het, unless it's outstanding and will always be useful. :O I want to make nice multi gene snakes, but I don't want to end up either getting rid of my pets I have grown attached to when I need room--or have 500+ breeder snakes through keeping them all and upgrading a lot! I'll for sure add new ones, but not to the point where I start to run out of room. I'll be strictly small time :]

I might invest in a few het females of the recessive gene in order to just produce a lot more animals, but I DO want at least one recessive visualxvisual pair if I do breed with any hets, so I can be more sure I produce at least a few visuals that can help my reputation as a real breeder. :) And any hetxhet will probably also have a visual codominant morph added on, so they aren't all straight hets. Pastel het pieds or lesser het pieds might be nicer than just producing all het pieds. I don't want to make possible hets if I can help it though!

I know it's going to be expensive, but I'd rather invest in the beginning in regards to the recessives at least! :D


As far as strong lines go...When I look into snakes, I like to ask for pictures of the parents if the snake isn't from a line(aka NERD lemon pastel vs. a really gorgeous regular pastel), and I would especially love to see images of the snake's parents as hatchlings and as adults, because I want to get an example of what the snake will look like as an adult. If I see a gorgeous snake who's parents were gorgeous in the same way as babies--but turned into ugly ugly adults, I..probably won't buy the snake! If I see a snake who's parents looked the same as it as hatchlings and they grew into AMAZING adults, than yes, I'll be more likely to get that one!
So at least in that case, I'll know the grandparents and parents of the snakes I produce are beautiful, and that's one step in the right direction to having a strong line of good genetics, even if the snake isn't from someone like NERD who's worked with the same line for generations of snakes :D Then, the line is in your hands. Take the baby snake you produce and breed it with a beautiful mate who also has beautiful parents of the 'look' you want, and now you are into the fourth generation of awesome snakes. Keep all these photos of the parents, grandparents, great grandparents, siblings, their kids, etc. and you can show that you have a top notch line that just makes awesome animals all the time! :D It's a lot of work, but hey, it gets you a strong line of good genes to work with after a while, and it CAN all start with buying from small time breeders!

As Sean Bradley of EbN has always preached "examine the snake, not the deal".

I've built my collection by being very picky about the looks of my animals, because I've always wanted to selectively breed and improve on stock, not just bang out animals for the sake of banging them out.

I have a very set look that "I" want in my breeders. So much so that it was almost 2 years before I picked up a cinnamon that met my critera and a year and half before I picked up a lesser that met my criteria.

When I find the animal that I want, I then will vett the seller by checking the BOI if I'm not already familiar with them. Once that checks out, I move forward.

I have animals from small breeders, medium breeders and large breeders.

Kevin at NERD happens to be a friend of mine. But I have one animal from him. Will I buy more in the future? Most likely. But will it be BECAUSE it comes from Kev? Nope, it will be because he has something that I want, that meets my personal criteria in the looks department.

Whats you guys opinion on this female Fire, strictly as breeder? IOW, would you use this base as your Fire line? She looks very clean, and compared to a lot of others I've seen pretty nice. Not quite the pattern I like but that seems to be in males I've seen (saw a recent pair of siblings and the male was exactly what I want but the female had a pattern more like this, just much uglier). This snake is not about what I like, it's what will make great offspring (and being the newb I am I'd appreciate the help)

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/...er-fire006.jpghttp://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/...er-fire007.jpghttp://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/...er-fire010.jpg


Sorry for the small pics but I can't for the life of me figure out how to post the thumbnails...been at it for an hour and it's getting late (as if I don't feel dumb enough already...ugh)

i looked around a little more after posting that and thinking more about what a lot of you said, "be patient, find the right animal", etc... I got caught up in the deal and started justifying an animal I know isn't as good as I want as a foundation. I'm just gonna have to save up and wait for the right animal, not the right deal (ir's hard when you see something half the price, but I'm gonna just have to bite the bullet and save my pennies and wait till the right one presents itself (just gotta make sure I have the money when I find one this time).

I recently had a bad experience with a large company. Avoid buying animals from Glades Herp Farm Inc.. I forgot to look them up on Fauna-classifieds and see what I got myself into.....Lesson learned....:rage:

check out my other threads:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...d.php?t=276306
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-Herp-Farm-Inc

Good luck buddy!