How do you feel about flippers?

There is a guy that posts on our local classifieds that is a flipper.
Every other week or so he gets new herps to sell.
He has a lot of different animals ranging from difference species of dart frogs, monitors, chameleons, snakes, lizards, tortoises and various amphibians.

I occasionally have a few herps on the site for sale. Some juvey leos I've raised or a snake that doesnt fit into my projects anymore. And he will ask if I want to trade sometimes. He thinks an even trade would be his adult female normal leo for my juvey male mack snow or a carrot tail. Dream on buddy.
I've messaged him before acting ignorant about herp husbandry and he talks about chameleons being so friendly to hold and should be kept in a large aquarium and that beardies just need a heat pad for basking and their diet is mostly mealworms.
I hate this guy!

A guy that comes into my bar said he bought a baby BP on the classifieds and I said let me guess it was from the flipper...it was.
This snake was a whopping 56g and the buyer was told he eats f/t. Of course that wasnt the case so I had to help him feed the hatchling live until he grew a bit to be weaned on f/t. I doubt this poor snake even had three meals in him when he was sold as "eating f/t."

I just think what this guy is doing is wrong and he must have a wholesale license somehow because I cant imagine hes making much of a profit. I just dont agree with flippers like these especialy ones that dont know about the care of the animals they are selling!
...what are your thoughts?

Were All flippers in a way. We all get something in, but dont fit our breeding's. So we sell it to get funds for something else. Its how reptiles have been for years.

Theres a right and wrong way to flipping animals.

he sounds like he saw a market and is trying to abuse it for cash. but as far as i go on flipping, it depends on the situation, if your literally buying animals just to sell them for more, i cant stand that, but if your rescueing and selling them when their healthy, thats a different story. same with breeding, buying/selling/trading for breeding is fine imo

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Were All flippers in a way. We all get something in, but dont fit our breeding's. So we sell it to get funds for something else. Its how reptiles have been for years.

Theres a right and wrong way to flipping animals.

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I dont agree that we are all flippers.
Theres a difference between me seeing a good deal on an animal just to know I can turn around and resell it online or something for more as long as I put more time into the sale.

Then me buying a BP for a breeding project that I specialize in than a couple months or years later deciding I want to take a different route.
I think thats completly different.

I do agree theres a right and wrong way to flip and the wrong way is what I'm seeing with this guy.

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Originally Posted by cmack91

he sounds like he saw a market and is trying to abuse it for cash. but as far as i go on flipping, it depends on the situation, if your literally buying animals just to sell them for more, i cant stand that, but if your rescueing and selling them when their healthy, thats a different story. same with breeding, buying/selling/trading for breeding is fine imo

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And this is one of those guys that is for the money.
For the amount of different species he gets and the quantity of animals he must just be buying in at bulk price.
I just dont agree that he doesnt know much about the animals hes selling is all that bothers me the most.

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Originally Posted by mues155

And this is one of those guys that is for the money.
For the amount of different species he gets and the quantity of animals he must just be buying in at bulk price.
I just dont agree that he doesnt know much about the animals hes selling is all that bothers me the most.

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its always obnoxious to see someone doing this when they dont even know WHAT their doing, its kinda like finding out your brain surgeon has parkinsons, its all bad news, the best you can do though is spread word not to buy from him

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Originally Posted by cmack91

its always obnoxious to see someone doing this when they dont even know WHAT their doing, its kinda like finding out your brain surgeon has parkinsons, its all bad news, the best you can do though is spread word not to buy from him

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believe me im trying to do just that.

I dont personally flip but I ask you whats the difference from someone flipping a house? You see something you can improve or re sell as is and make a profit. Theres nothing wrong with that.

Now with animals such as dogs and cats where there is bonding involved I think doing that could be bad as their attitude could be affected. But last time I checked none of my snakes have bonded with me.

I personally dont see a problem with it as long as the animals are taken care of in the process.

my .02

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Originally Posted by Rat160

I dont personally flip but I ask you whats the difference from someone flipping a house? You see something you can improve or re sell as is and make a profit. Theres nothing wrong with that.

Now with animals such as dogs and cats where there is bonding involved I think doing that could be bad as their attitude could be affected. But last time I checked none of my snakes have bonded with me.

I personally dont see a problem with it as long as the animals are taken care of in the process.

my .02

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A house is not a LIVING thing.

My biggest problem with it is that this guy is spreading WRONG information on husbandry for the animals he is selling. Say im looking to buy from this guy and im not experienced in herps and ask the person im buying from how to care for the animal and I get wrong advice that animal is in a bad situation. Not everyone thinks to look on the internet or take a second opinion. I didnt say all flippers are bad. This guy in particular I dont agree with is all Im saying.

I dont like flippers that get rescue animals for free and turn and sell them either. Thats wrong IMO.

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Originally Posted by Rat160

I dont personally flip but I ask you whats the difference from someone flipping a house? You see something you can improve or re sell as is and make a profit. Theres nothing wrong with that.

Now with animals such as dogs and cats where there is bonding involved I think doing that could be bad as their attitude could be affected. But last time I checked none of my snakes have bonded with me.

I personally dont see a problem with it as long as the animals are taken care of in the process.

my .02

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beleive it or not, snakes can "bond", my old scrub tryed to strike at every person that looked at her except me, and that was because i was the only person to spend time with her sitting outside her cage, or opening the door to "pet" her, she actually came to trust me, but if anyone else showed up, she was right back into "Im gonna eat your face off" mode, granted i had to take alot of strikes and a couple bites to get her that way

I still dont believe that snakes bond but thats just me, im probably wrong lol. I do agree if he is spreading wrong information that is no good. If you got a rescue animal for free and provided care for it whats so wrong about trying to recoup a small amount of what you put into the animal to make it 100% again? I think rescue animals should have a price since the rescue is putting up their own money to give the thing a fighting chance. If there was a rescue that rescued ball python morphs I would look at them first.

this thread reminded me of this:
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...hlight=numnuts

hahahaha I have watched that video like 40 times, I cannot get enough! I want a sequal!!!

I agree that the misinformation is disturbing and this style of flipping is definitely harmful to the hobby. What really upsets me is the misinformation given to those buyers looking to get into reptiles for the first time. They get the wrong information and then get discouraged when their reptile keeping experience doesn't go well and then decide not to get anymore reptiles or they find the appropriate info. later on and realize they were lied to. Then they get the impression that all reptile owners and breeders are liars and thieves.

As far as flipping in general, I see nothing wrong with it when done with integrity. Every breeder out there is a flipper to some degree. I doubt that there are too many breeders who have exclusively sold only what they have produced. I personally will buy animals strictly with the intention of resale if there is a profit to be made or if it can further my own breeding plans or collection. I think there is of course a set of standards that need adhered to though.

First, the animal you're selling has to be in good health to the best of your knowledge and if you don't have it in your possession long enough to know this for sure then you have to stand behind that animal in the event that it is found not to be healthy.

Second the buyer needs to be made aware of the origin the animal and also if you haven't had it for very long they should be made aware of that as well.

Third, I think you need to sell animals you are familiar with and have PROPERLY cared for in the past. ESPECIALLY when selling to the first time buyer. For example, I think hots are fascinating, but I'm not gonna flip those I know next to nothing about them so I wouldn't be comfortable advising others on their care.

Lastly, don't disappear after the sale. Whether it's a problem with the animal or simply a thank you email from the buyer, make sure you're just as available to talk to after the sale as you were before the sale.

I guess that was a long winded way of saying I support flipping when done with integrity and professionalism. Sorry for the rant. :)

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Theres a right and wrong way to flipping animals.

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x2.

As with anything, there will be good, reputable people who flip, and those who abuse and take advantage. Buyer (and seller) beware.

It sounds like the problem with the guy in question isn't that he flips, it's that he has and spreads poor information to buyers that he lures in at low prices. Even if he produced the animals, that would still be unethical.

Honestly, I don't have a problem with flipping, as long as the animals are healthy. If someone buys an animal, takes care of it well, and then turns around and sells it again in a few weeks, the snake may be a little bit stressed but it won't do any serious harm. I don't see a problem with it. It's when they decide not to take care of it for the short time they have it that it becomes an issue.

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Originally Posted by Annarose15

It sounds like the problem with the guy in question isn't that he flips, it's that he has and spreads poor information to buyers that he lures in at low prices. Even if he produced the animals, that would still be unethical.

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That is more of the issue that I have with this guy. Its the wrong way hes doing it.
I guess I just dont agree with flipping if the seller is either lying about the animals background to help the sale or cant provide the knowledge on the care of the animal. I just dont like that.

My biggest issue with flipping(other than lying about care) is how the animals are quarantined. It seems like I see a lot of bad diseases spread around that become untraceable because a snake is bought and sold and bought and sold and no one keeps it around or quarantined long enough to know if it's sick.

I know I personally wouldn't sell an animal I hadn't quarantined to be sure it was healthy, but I've seen people buy snakes and turn around and sell them the next day!

You don't always know who the flipper bought from. So from buying from him you are having to trust two people's word instead of one. And you don't even get to talk to the other person in most cases!

But of course, there are good and bad and all that. But still, it's a trust issue for me!:O

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Originally Posted by purplemuffin

My biggest issue with flipping(other than lying about care) is how the animals are quarantined. It seems like I see a lot of bad diseases spread around that become untraceable because a snake is bought and sold and bought and sold and no one keeps it around or quarantined long enough to know if it's sick.

I know I personally wouldn't sell an animal I hadn't quarantined to be sure it was healthy, but I've seen people buy snakes and turn around and sell them the next day!

You don't always know who the flipper bought from. So from buying from him you are having to trust two people's word instead of one. And you don't even get to talk to the other person in most cases!

But of course, there are good and bad and all that. But still, it's a trust issue for me!:O

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Very nice point! :gj:
QT! I didnt even really think about these animals not getting a QT when being passed from home to home. Im sure they go through a lot more stress being moved around so much and so often.

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Originally Posted by mues155

A guy that comes into my bar said he bought a baby BP on the classifieds and I said let me guess it was from the flipper...it was.
This snake was a whopping 56g and the buyer was told he eats f/t. Of course that wasnt the case so I had to help him feed the hatchling live until he grew a bit to be weaned on f/t. I doubt this poor snake even had three meals in him when he was sold as "eating f/t."

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Just a comment on this. The majority of our hatchlings eat a live fuzzy rat for the first meal, the 2nd is thawed and they never look back. It is entirely feasible, and in our case common, to sell a hatchling with few meals that is established on thawed fuzzy rats. At 56 grams, probably not, but we do have a Pied from a "boob egg" that hatched at 36 grams and she is now near 60g and estblished on thawed fuzzy rats.
- Paul

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Originally Posted by PiedPeddler

Just a comment on this. The majority of our hatchlings eat a live fuzzy rat for the first meal, the 2nd is thawed and they never look back. It is entirely feasible, and in our case common, to sell a hatchling with few meals that is established on thawed fuzzy rats. At 56 grams, probably not, but we do have a Pied from a "boob egg" that hatched at 36 grams and she is now near 60g and estblished on thawed fuzzy rats.
- Paul

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yes I agree
But the point of that was this guy sold the snake as on f/t,i believe he either lied to push the sale or didn't even have the snake long enough to confirm that it was feeding.
A regular person doesn't have the know how or the experience to get a hatchling to eat. This was the guys first snake and he couldn't understand why it wasn't eating f/t. That's because the snake probably wasn't on frozen. The snake could have died if I hasn't told him to try live.
That's what I had a problem with.

Ever been to a pet store?
Would you not call that a license to flip :confused:

:P I don't buy from petstores either though!

I KNOW they don't quarantine! :O