Now I'm worried - Help with Ball Pythons

One of my biggest fears may be coming true and I'm scared to death for my snakes. When we moved to a new apartment in August, we lost our male corn snake. We are not sure what killed him. We froze his body and I went on caring for my collection as normal. I have not added any new snakes since May of 2011 (from my sister who's collection is clean) Everyone is eating normally, has fresh water and is cleaned on a weekly basis (or more often if someone defecates).

In September I lost Ness, the normal granite baby from Clutch #1 from this season. You may or may not remember her. She was the baby that hatched out of the split egg. She was eating normally and shedding. I fed her on a Tuesday and by Thursday I found her dead in her tub. Froze her body and decided to put my collection on lock down. No snakes in, no snakes out until I could figure this out. No snakes were showing any signs of illness at this point. This month, clutch #2 was still holding out on feeding (at this point, its been a month since they hatched. And they hatched out small at 50g a piece) I decided to assist feed the two spinners as they were the smallest. I have experience with assist feeding and only just barely put the mouse pinkies in their mouths. The male spinner is doing fine and has eaten on his own since. The female spinner died a day later. Out of that clutch, the spinner male has taken two meals (one assist, one on his own) and the normal female has taken one on her own. The spider and pinstripe have not eaten yet. I went to check on them tonight and found the pinstripe acting strangely. She is being housed with her clutch mates and I have isolated her in a 10g tank. The other 3 are doing fine and do not appear to have any signs of illness.

Here is a video I took of the pinstripe. She has lost 11g since hatching in the beginning of September. As of yesterday, she did not act like this.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r...014_212415.jpg

I'm sorry I don't know what's wrong with your snake. I'm sorry for your other losses too.

I would take her to reptile vet. I don't know if they can still do a necropsy on the frozen snakes, but I would look into it. It sounds like something is going through your collection. :(

For some reason I can't view the video, even if I click on the original link. Seems like something funky may be going on. Can you try to get the video uploaded to YouTube? I'm interested in seeing what you experienced with the Pin.

I can try and upload it tonight, if not then tomorrow. In a nutshell, she just seems extremely weak and has very little control over her movements. They are jerky and uncoordinated. If this is simply due to malnutrition (losing over 1/5 her body weight) then perhaps it can be reversed. She is isolated in her own 10g tank with hides, newspaper and heat. I assist fed her a large mouse pinkie and she gobbled it down immediately though she did seem to have to put a lot of effort into it. I will update this thread about her condition.

It looks very strange. She looks like she's wobbling or has something else neurological going on from the way her head wags back and forth.

I would 100% take a snake (or more than one) to a reptile vet as soon as possible. The cost of the vet may be expensive, but may also save the rest of your collection, especially since it sounds like this is spreading.

I'm no expert, but that kind of looks like a Spider Wobble to me (but on a pin). Now you're making me worry because last night I saw my pin do a little wobble for like 10 seconds and then she stopped, after that she seemed normal, tho.

Hope you figure it out :(






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Jay, I'm no expert on neuro issues, but I'm curious as to where in your racks the snakes that died were located. The reason I ask is because this all started when you moved into the new apartment, and I know most apartments are routinely treated with pesticides, so I was just wondering if there was some common denominator in regards to whether or not they were all located in the bottom of the racks, near the floor, and if your apartment had recently been treated.

Checked on her just now. She is still wobbling, but she kept the meal down and is still alive. With how bad she looked last night this is surprising.

As far as location, the corn snake's tank was on the floor, the normal female was in a top tub about 3ft off the ground. This particular clutch are in tubs in the incubator (I have not had someone to help me build my rack until this weekend. It is getting built today and all the babies in the incubator are going into the rack.)

The apartment management is trying to get our apartment sprayed but so far we haven't let them come in to do it. They claim it is non-toxic but we told them we don't trust any bug killers so they are not to spray our apartment.

Now, when she was eating last night, she ate in a similar fashion to my spider female from Clutch #1. That spider would not eat and had to be assist fed several times. She hatched out at over 60g and went down to 43g (She's eating live only on her own and gaining weight. Now up to 49g). At one point she was so weak, she acted just like this pin, so I'm wondering (and in a sick way, hoping) it is just malnutrition causing her to lose motor control. All of the other snakes appear fine and will be fed today. I don't know of any herp vets in the area that are open on weekends, but if her condition has not improved by Sunday evening, I will try and make an appointment for Monday or Tuesday.

Thank you all for your advice. I'm trying to keep myself from worrying so much but if this isn't malnutrition, then I don't know what I'll do. These snakes are my babies! Not to mention I'm watching someone's snakes right now and I've had to tell her that she can't come get her snakes yet since the snakes would be going to a house with other reptiles. I don't want to risk more lives. She's okay with that but misses her babies.

Oh and I opened the little pins mouth last night to see if I could find any mucus or anything and her mouth was clear as far as I could tell. This morning she was curled up in her hide, the meal barely making a bulge in her tummy. But to my relief she is still alive and responsive. She did wobble when I lifted her hide but once I put it back, she went in, curled up and I left her alone. I'll be checking her tonight as I want to leave her alone as much as possible with that meal. I will try feeding her again in 4 days if she improves or the vet gives me the okay.

Hi,

It really does look like the spider wobble.

As already said I would suspect either overheating, toxic exposure or possibly even parasites ( I know some cause stargazing and other motor problems ).

I would sit down and look at everything that might be causing problems in your snakeroom like airfresheners, paints, varnishes etc as well as the veet visit and temp check.

Hope you find what it is.


dr del

Good luck Jay, please keep us updated!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Munizfire

I'm no expert, but that kind of looks like a Spider Wobble to me (but on a pin). Now you're making me worry because last night I saw my pin do a little wobble for like 10 seconds and then she stopped, after that she seemed normal, tho.

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Its strange, I've wondered the same thing about my pin! She tends to have a slight wobble as well. Is that normal for pins?

Paint - We have not tested the paint in the apartment for lead but there has been no painting done since we moved in.

Air Fresheners - We only use Febreeze and we don't use it in the snake room. We have used it once in the snake room since moving in and it was only applied to a blanket we have under the ferret cage, never near the racks or in the air. (and it was only a couple days ago)

Parasites - There are no visible signs of external parasites. When I speak to the vet I will see about getting a fecal done, though she has no fecal matter to pass yet. Not sure how long a pinkie takes to digest, but she should have some poo when that is done.

I'm weighing all of my snakes today, and all weights are on the rise, save for the babies that are not eating.

The little pin is still alive. How long does it take a pinkie to digest? The clutch she is from, the entire clutch just seems so tiny, especially in comparison to the third clutch. Even a month after hatching, they are still quite fat and extremely nippy (the male bumblebee that is going to my friend will sit there and literally throw himself at you or he'll open his mouth as a threat that he is going to bite you.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

The little pin is still alive. How long does it take a pinkie to digest?

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It's probably going to take a few pinkies before there is enough waste accumulated for them to poop.

I'm wondering when I should attempt to feed her again. She is moving around the tank to thermoregulate. I just checked on her and she is still wobbling. If this is malnutrition then it may take a few meals to get her back to normal.

At this point if I were you (and I am not) what I would do if there is another death is put the body in the fridge (not the freezer) and have a necropsy done.

There is no way to know if those death are related or not or what the issue is.

Snakes sometime die for no apparent reason it can be aneurysm, heart diffect, digestive issues etc could that have happen sure.

Could it be something else, it's possible too again the only way to confirm that there is no diseases going on in your collection would be a necropsy.

You mention living in a new place were any chemical sprayed in the snake room?

There have been no chemicals sprayed in the room save for the Febreeze mentioned earlier that was sprayed on a blanket away from the racks.

I'm hoping this is just malnutrition as the little spider female I have from my first clutch this past season did the same thing. She wasn't eating and got extremely weak. When she ate, she would actually flop over when she was trying to swallow a meal because she didn't have the strength to hold her head up. This pin was doing the same thing when I assist fed her.

Good luck with your babies. Now, you cannot get a necropsy and pathology done on a snake that was put in the freezer. I wouldn't just do a necropsy because a necropsy doesn't tell everything. Get a pathology done also as this will tell more about what was going on with the tissue. The freezer destroys cells and organs by crystallizing them. Like Del said, put it in the refrigerator for the day/night and then take it to a vet the next day.

Star

I was going to guess that it was from the snake being so weak from not eating. I had a baby do that to me this year. She wouldn't eat and when I assist fed her I had to literally push it down her neck she was so weak. She ended up dying after the 2nd or 3rd feeding. I'm assuming there was either something wrong with her from the start or if she was just to weak to make it.

it looks like its very weak. I would feed it every 3 days. if you're assist feeding, the prey is smaller than what she would be eating by herself anyway. with your hatchlings not making it. I don't think you had any issues besides having what breeders call a weak clutch. you need to get food into that hatchling and keep her temps on the warm side of the range we keep them at (don't cook her). you want to make digestion easy on her. need to keep a watch on her stomach. if she starts to swell up looking like a female with eggs. gently rub her belly and all the way down to her vent. you can feel it she gets backup and this is usually all it takes to help her go. this will help give her a chance of making it. good luck with her

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

Checked on her just now. She is still wobbling, but she kept the meal down and is still alive. With how bad she looked last night this is surprising.

As far as location, the corn snake's tank was on the floor, the normal female was in a top tub about 3ft off the ground. This particular clutch are in tubs in the incubator (I have not had someone to help me build my rack until this weekend. It is getting built today and all the babies in the incubator are going into the rack.)

The apartment management is trying to get our apartment sprayed but so far we haven't let them come in to do it. They claim it is non-toxic but we told them we don't trust any bug killers so they are not to spray our apartment.

Now, when she was eating last night, she ate in a similar fashion to my spider female from Clutch #1. That spider would not eat and had to be assist fed several times. She hatched out at over 60g and went down to 43g (She's eating live only on her own and gaining weight. Now up to 49g). At one point she was so weak, she acted just like this pin, so I'm wondering (and in a sick way, hoping) it is just malnutrition causing her to lose motor control. All of the other snakes appear fine and will be fed today. I don't know of any herp vets in the area that are open on weekends, but if her condition has not improved by Sunday evening, I will try and make an appointment for Monday or Tuesday.

Thank you all for your advice. I'm trying to keep myself from worrying so much but if this isn't malnutrition, then I don't know what I'll do. These snakes are my babies! Not to mention I'm watching someone's snakes right now and I've had to tell her that she can't come get her snakes yet since the snakes would be going to a house with other reptiles. I don't want to risk more lives. She's okay with that but misses her babies.

Oh and I opened the little pins mouth last night to see if I could find any mucus or anything and her mouth was clear as far as I could tell. This morning she was curled up in her hide, the meal barely making a bulge in her tummy. But to my relief she is still alive and responsive. She did wobble when I lifted her hide but once I put it back, she went in, curled up and I left her alone. I'll be checking her tonight as I want to leave her alone as much as possible with that meal. I will try feeding her again in 4 days if she improves or the vet gives me the okay.

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Just a shot in the dark but if they want to spray your place odds are they have sprayed the units around you if you share any kind of ventilation/heating unit the spray may be the problem.
Last year I was going to spray the foundation of my house with a bugspray but after reading the back instructions and seeing they suggested closing all windows and sealing of the inside of my home I decided I would rather deal with ants than risk my pets health.
Again it is just a guess but where are these animals kept near windows / heat vents anything that could bring the chemicals in from another unit ? Sorry for your loss and hope you can get this figured out.

We may share ventilation. I'll have to find out as the units around us were sprayed but not recently. I think they were sprayed a few weeks ago.

She's still alive and moving around. I'll assist feed her another pinkie today. I may also give her a soak as I'm not sure if she's attempting to drink from the water dish. She doesn't seem coordinated enough.

Yikes....is putting an airfreshener in the snake room dangerous?? I put a freebreeze table top airfreshener a month ago - haven't noticed any problems. Just seen it posted here - should I not be putting an air freshener in their room.

Now I'm worried.

Thanks

I gave her a soak and I'm warming up her food now. I'll try to get a video of her eating it.

The pinstripe female has had 3 meals now. I just took her out to see how she is doing. She's still wobbly (much like a spider) but she's a little more coordinated. She's moving around a bit more (moving from hide to hide as she needs to for thermo-regulation.) I'm going to wait for her to poop before feeding her again but she is looking slightly better.

I also noted that when I was feeding her siblings, the spinner male has a very pronounced wobble. He has eaten on his own so its not affecting him but I'm wondering if the whole clutch might have some neurological problems. They all hatched out pretty small. Around 50g each. The spider female in the clutch has a very small wobble and the normal female doesn't have any wobble.

I haven't read through this whole thread but....are you sure your not seeing the typical spider gene wobble?

Its possible as the wobble is very similar. All of the babies I've produced this season with the spider gene have some kind of wobble. The bumblebees have it slightly, the spider female has it just like her father (only when she's excited) and this little pin has a wobble. Her father is a spider, but I am not aware of any normal or other morphs inheriting the spider wobble from a spider parent unless they are spiders as well.

I agree that they technically shouldn't have the wobble unless they have the spider gene, I didn't read the part where a normal had a wobble too (my mistake for not reading the whole thread lol). Maybe there's a genetic "wobble" that one of the parents carry (other than the spider wobble of course...).

Well, the normal I hatched out doesn't have the wobble, but all of her siblings do. The mother of this clutch was a 1350g pinstripe from 2007. The father was a 2007 700g spider. His wobble is obvious when he eats or gets excited about breeding.

Both spinners in this clutch have very obvious wobbles. The little spinner male I fed on Saturday kept rolling when he had the mouse in his mouth. He had constricted, but its like he couldn't orient himself after so he just kept rolling. After about a minute of this, he stopped, ate the mouse, had a head shake after he swallowed it, then was back to normal. But his head will shake when I open his tub or pick him up. His wobble is not severe enough that I'm worried. Just figured I'd post the extent of it.

This pin seems to be improving now that she has some food in her belly. She's still wobbling and is not coordinated but looking at her this morning, she's doing better. I'm am going to continue to monitor her progress and I'll try and take a video today of how she's moving so we can compare it with the first video.

How is your little pin doing today?

Just a little update. She has pooped and on empty has gained 5g (now weighs 44g). She's still not eating on her own but the wobbling has decreased. Normal movements and only wobbles if I disturb her or as she's finishing swallowing a meal (slight shake and she's done). She used to flip over backwards when she ate because she couldn't balance herself. Today, she ate (assist fed) and didn't fall over. So, she is making small improvements. I'm soaking her every 2-3 days to make sure she is staying hydrated.

None of the other snakes are exhibiting any symptoms of illness.

I'm curious. What temps did you incubate at? If all the hatchlings from the clutch have neurological issues, I would suspect some sort of incubation issue.

I incubated between 86-89. During the last week of incubation (I'd have to go back and find out what day they were up to when the hurricane hit) we lost power to the incubator and they dropped in temp down to around 75 for roughly 5 days. The other clutch that had about 2-3 weeks to go (both were in the same incubator at the same time) suffered no neurological problems.

The pinstripe, who now has a name, Juju, is doing well. She still wobbles a little but overall she is improving. She is up to 50g empty at this point but is showing little interest in food. I still have to assist feed her every 5 days but during her last meal, she actually curled around it a little like she was attempting to constrict it, so that is progress. I'm going to try and see if she will take a live mouse fuzzy/hopper on her own this week. We will see how she does. I'll take some updated pictures/video of her soon.