Kelley BlueBook of Ball Pythons...

Someone mentioned in another long thread about the idea of doing a "blue book" so to say, of BP prices.

While I don't dispute that this would be a very large undertaking, are there resources that could be pulled together to do something like that?

My first thought would be something in connection with the worldofballpythons.com morph list. Perhaps it would be able to go along with a BP classifieds section/list, and in order to advertise in it, there would be a modest fee, somewhat like this site, just to pay the costs of keeping the "blue book" updated.

Also, along with this idea, I'm reposting the great read that mschmied posted: http://ballpythonbreeder.com/2009/04...price-animals/

That post you linked is absurd. It's full of "what ifs". That is truely not how the ball python market works. I'm sure that is the way it works for lower end breeders because it's more difficult to sell single gene animals each and every year. However the people that breed and sell the higher end stuff make up their own prices. I doubt very seriously that Kevin from Nerd is sitting in front of his computer on kingsnake trying to figure out how to price his animals. The scenario used is very far fetched. I don't believe that a "Kelley Blue Book" is the answer either. How are you going to keep it updated? Prices change everyday. You either buy quality from someone you trust or you buy the cheapest thing you can find. I'm a firm believe in you get what you pay for. I paid $600 for a hatchling mojave female last year, just becuase she looked better than any mojave I'd ever seen. And she is still the hottest mojave I've ever seen.

I could probably program something (or get some help with it, if it becomes more complicated than I can handle) that would allow people to anonymously put in the price of a ball python they bought, the genetics, and its gender and age, and the program would average the value of various ball pythons based on the data entered.

Problem is you'd need a LOT of data. There's also the chance that someone could lie and skew the average, hence needing a lot of data.

I dunno, I could do it but I don't think it'd help so much?

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Originally Posted by PassionsPythons

I doubt very seriously that Kevin from Nerd is sitting in front of his computer on kingsnake trying to figure out how to price his animals. The scenario used is very far fetched. I don't believe that a "Kelley Blue Book" is the answer either. How are you going to keep it updated? Prices change everyday. You either buy quality from someone you trust or you buy the cheapest thing you can find. I'm a firm believe in you get what you pay for. I paid $600 for a hatchling mojave female last year, just becuase she looked better than any mojave I'd ever seen. And she is still the hottest mojave I've ever seen.

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I kind of agree with this. I will price my animals as well as buy my animals for what I feel they are worth (to me)...Not some made up market price.

that link does have some validity to it...march 2011 i purchased a spider and pastel for 350, cuz bees were 700-850, 9 months later male bees are selling for 450, that almost a 50% drop in "market value":O

I am new to all this, but have looked into a male to buy. I see the Bp market as anything else. There tons of morphs and breeders add mote each year. With this the easier morph is to get or have better odds at getting it is going to drive market price down. I have a pastel easy to come by. If on my case I want to make a high end morigh end morph will have to get amore expensive male. I feel it is you get what you pay for snake, and off spring wose.

Supply and demand yes prices change yes they change quickly the other issue is that regional pricing. In my area there are breeders producing spiders like crazy so they are relatively cheap pins however no one is producing any locally so they are about 100$ more than what you would normally expect. Blue books don't take that into account. The same is true for cars the blue book price isn't a guide it is a distraction. It also assumes a base value for genetics and doesn't account for the quality. Personally I don't care about genetics it is strictly animal to animal good looking good feeding good attitude.

As somebody just getting into this hobby, I wish there was a general list for pricing somewhere. I understand it can change quickly and that quality or region might dictate a higher or lower price, however, it would be nice to know what the general price is. It may not be 100% accurate, but it would give me an idea of what I should be looking for. Far as I know a cinny could be an 800 snake, you know? So aside from asking people, I have no idea lol. Even searching on kingsnake, its hard to find certain single morphs or combos sometimes.

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Originally Posted by PassionsPythons

I doubt very seriously that Kevin from Nerd is sitting in front of his computer on kingsnake trying to figure out how to price his animals.

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I cannot speak for Kevin specifically but I can tell you with complete confidence that the biggest of the big do indeed use the on-line classifieds to figure out pricing. So yes, a breeder who produces 200+ clutches of snakes every year may very well be pricing his animals based upon the whimsy of a person who produces 10 clutches per year. I know this from first-hand experience; I am not guessing or assuming how they do it.

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Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

I cannot speak for Kevin specifically but I can tell you with complete confidence that the biggest of the big do indeed use the on-line classifieds to figure out pricing. So yes, a breeder who produces 200+ clutches of snakes every year may very well be pricing his animals based upon the whimsy of a person who produces 10 clutches per year. I know this from first-hand experience; I am not guessing or assuming how they do it.

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Hey Colin, I saw a link posted the other night to an article you wrote about this topic. VERY well done! Thanks. :gj:


:hijackd:

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Originally Posted by GR8DANE

that link does have some validity to it...march 2011 i purchased a spider and pastel for 350, cuz bees were 700-850, 9 months later male bees are selling for 450, that almost a 50% drop in "market value":O

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Back in February 2011 I found a 2010 female bee advertised for $600. This wasn't a hatchling either, she was probably around 6 months old at the time. This was with a "big breeder." I just checked another big breeder's site and see females bees going for $550. Given that the one available now is maybe a month or two old and is less than half the size the 2010 was, I would say prices are staying pretty steady.

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Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

Back in February 2011 I found a 2010 female bee advertised for $600. This wasn't a hatchling either, she was probably around 6 months old at the time. This was with a "big breeder." I just checked another big breeder's site and see females bees going for $550. Given that the one available now is maybe a month or two old and is less than half the size the 2010 was, I would say prices are staying pretty steady.

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That really doesn't mean the prices are steady at all. You checked the prices of two animals within the same year. That's hardly a substantial sample of the market. If you read the article you will see a few really good example of morphs that crashed down in price, like the Pinstripe.

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Originally Posted by PassionsPythons

That post you linked is absurd. It's full of "what ifs". That is truely not how the ball python market works. I'm sure that is the way it works for lower end breeders because it's more difficult to sell single gene animals each and every year. However the people that breed and sell the higher end stuff make up their own prices. I doubt very seriously that Kevin from Nerd is sitting in front of his computer on kingsnake trying to figure out how to price his animals. The scenario used is very far fetched. I don't believe that a "Kelley Blue Book" is the answer either. How are you going to keep it updated? Prices change everyday. You either buy quality from someone you trust or you buy the cheapest thing you can find. I'm a firm believe in you get what you pay for. I paid $600 for a hatchling mojave female last year, just becuase she looked better than any mojave I'd ever seen. And she is still the hottest mojave I've ever seen.

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Absurd is a pretty inappropriate word to use. When reading the article it's easy to research some of the information used in it and see for yourself that it's true.

And seriously, even if you go to the NERD website, their prices are slightly higher than the Kingsnake norm, but not by much. I'm not sure what you're basing this post on, as just a few minutes of research can show how drastically certain morphs has dropped in price.

And this isn't about "You get what you pay for" either. I bought my pastel butter for around $200 more than average market price, because he was absolutely worth it. However, back in 2009 pastel butters were going for around $400 - $500 more than what I paid as the AVERAGE price.

Do people even proofread their posts? There are some posts that I read it and still have no idea what the person was talking about due to so many errors. But on to the topic at hand. There are so many new morphs coming out daily that I highly doubt the industry is in trouble. As far as that post goes its utter rubbish. Just a guy that's upset that he can't sell his animals at a high price. Myself being a breeder just starting out I look at any business plan. If you want to sell your product you have to be cheaper. When my company is looking to have work done we take 3 bids. Whoever is cheaper takes the work. We do take into account quality but with snakes quality is in the eye of the buyer. I have bought some snakes at a fraction of big breeder prices that looked way better. When I sell my animals I will be looking at what that particular snake is going for on several sites and sell it for just under that. That's the way business works and there is no getting around it. If I want to sell I have to be cheap. Nothing against nerd but I would never buy a snake from them. Not because I don't want to but because I can't afford to. They price their snakes so high that I'm not willing to pay for the nerd name. I can't get the same quality from some guy breeding out of his basement. Just my .02

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

...like the Pinstripe.

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Yep, that's the one I always go to. In 2004, the going price on Pins was $30,000.

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Originally Posted by Rat160

Do people even proofread their posts? There are some posts that I read it and still have no idea what the person was talking about due to so many errors. But on to the topic at hand. There are so many new morphs coming out daily that I highly doubt the industry is in trouble. As far as that post goes its utter rubbish. Just a guy that's upset that he can't sell his animals at a high price. Myself being a breeder just starting out I look at any business plan. If you want to sell your product you have to be cheaper. When my company is looking to have work done we take 3 bids. Whoever is cheaper takes the work. We do take into account quality but with snakes quality is in the eye of the buyer. I have bought some snakes at a fraction of big breeder prices that looked way better. When I sell my animals I will be looking at what that particular snake is going for on several sites and sell it for just under that. That's the way business works and there is no getting around it. If I want to sell I have to be cheap. Nothing against nerd but I would never buy a snake from them. Not because I don't want to but because I can't afford to. They price their snakes so high that I'm not willing to pay for the nerd name. I can't get the same quality from some guy breeding out of his basement. Just my .02

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Colin Weaver isn't exactly "just a guy that's upset he can't sell his snakes." I believe he genuinely cares about the welfare of the hobby. Because you are a new breeder (as I am), is it so hard to believe that somebody who has been around longer may know more than you about the ball python market?

And don't you think it would bother you if you have some good quality stock (quality is not ALWAYS in the eye of the beholder) for sale, and some schmuck lists his morphs for a LOT lower? Then you get people emailing you saying "Well this guy listed his for $300 less than yours, will you sell it to me for that price?" Then of course, you get some people who list theirs for that same low price to be competitive, and it starts a horrible chain reaction which ends in the value of the animal lowering significantly.

I don't know how you feel, but it would bother me.

I recently saw somebody post about how they bought a pair of Albinos a few years ago, and now they won't even make their deposit back in the first clutch, because prices have dropped so much.

As a community, I feel it's important for us to maintain high standards. Not just with the health and quality of our animals, but with pricing as well. It's incredibly selfish for somebody to price their animals well below the asking price, thus risking the value of EVERY animal of that morph just so they can make some quick cash.

I know a few people on here (Robin comes to mind) who are very picky about the animals they breed. They charge slightly more than market price, and they have no trouble moving their animals. Why? Because they've put the time and money in to producing a great product. They deserve to make more money because they've gone to the extra effort. I seriously never even see animals up on Robin's website because people are buying them before she has a chance to list them.

I will hopefully be producing my first clutch next year, and I strive to be more like the people who produce quality, and charge a little extra for it. Not because I want to make the extra money, but because I want to be proud of the animals I produce. I want to sell animals knowing that I'm sending a really good quality snake to my customers.

And I hope I will never be responsible for lowering the price of a morph just because I'm desperate or impatient to sell.

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Originally Posted by Rat160

Do people even proofread their posts? There are some posts that I read it and still have no idea what the person was talking about due to so many errors. But on to the topic at hand. There are so many new morphs coming out daily that I highly doubt the industry is in trouble. As far as that post goes its utter rubbish. Just a guy that's upset that he can't sell his animals at a high price. Myself being a breeder just starting out I look at any business plan. If you want to sell your product you have to be cheaper. When my company is looking to have work done we take 3 bids. Whoever is cheaper takes the work. We do take into account quality but with snakes quality is in the eye of the buyer. I have bought some snakes at a fraction of big breeder prices that looked way better. When I sell my animals I will be looking at what that particular snake is going for on several sites and sell it for just under that. That's the way business works and there is no getting around it. If I want to sell I have to be cheap. Nothing against nerd but I would never buy a snake from them. Not because I don't want to but because I can't afford to. They price their snakes so high that I'm not willing to pay for the nerd name. I can't get the same quality from some guy breeding out of his basement. Just my .02

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I find the first "bold" statement to be somewhat untrue. Business plans vary for each industry; maybe you develop a phone app that does "this and that," but there is already an app doing "this and that." If your app provides the exact same services as the other app, the best way to sell your app is to sell it cheaper. This concept, however, cannot be applied universally to all industries. It just doesn't work that way. Quality, in the BP industry, will always demand higher prices (IMHO).

In my opinion, this is exactly what leads to rapid decreases in market prices. You go cheaper than the guy/gal posting before you, and the breeder posting next goes cheaper than you.

Read the article by Colin that is hotlinked in a previous post.

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Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

Back in February 2011 I found a 2010 female bee advertised for $600. This wasn't a hatchling either, she was probably around 6 months old at the time. This was with a "big breeder." I just checked another big breeder's site and see females bees going for $550. Given that the one available now is maybe a month or two old and is less than half the size the 2010 was, I would say prices are staying pretty steady.

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The issue is not with big breeders. The issue lies with the majority, who are smaller scale breeders. It's unlikely to see big breeder's drop their prices that drastically, even though it eventually happens with time. Not even two years ago on kingsnake and fauna albinos were going for close to $500 for females and even some males. Now I look on there and they are selling some as cheap $300 shipped. These are nice looking animals too, not bad quality in my mind. These breeders just want them moved.

I buy for quality not for price. I usually do payment plans because I cannot pay up front. I do not mind that though, because if I buy for quality then I know the seller can be trusted from every aspect of breeding to husbandry to shipping, especially HEALTH. I have seen Clowns from I guess you can call them "basement breeders" for $800, if you want top of the line you are going to be paying anywhere from $1000 to $1500 depending on if it is reduced pattern or not. And I would rather pay the extra for that simply because I know the quality I am getting.

With that said Rat160, you are wrong in alot of aspects of what you posted. These breeders aren't selling out of the box appliances or something. They are live animals and poeple like myself are going to buy for quality and health, not your price because it is simply cheaper. 90% of my animals came from Garrick Demeyer, and that is who I intend to buy from everytime I purchase a new snake.

The prices on recessive morphs, in my mind, should always be a little higher than most co-dominant or dominant morphs. Now bare in mind you have to take into account if it is a brand new co-dominant morph or not but things like albinos and pieds make some of the coolest combos and take longer to produce. These prices should remain higher just for logics sake.

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Originally Posted by Rat160

Do people even proofread their posts? There are some posts that I read it and still have no idea what the person was talking about due to so many errors. But on to the topic at hand. There are so many new morphs coming out daily that I highly doubt the industry is in trouble. As far as that post goes its utter rubbish. Just a guy that's upset that he can't sell his animals at a high price. Myself being a breeder just starting out I look at any business plan. If you want to sell your product you have to be cheaper. When my company is looking to have work done we take 3 bids. Whoever is cheaper takes the work. We do take into account quality but with snakes quality is in the eye of the buyer. I have bought some snakes at a fraction of big breeder prices that looked way better. When I sell my animals I will be looking at what that particular snake is going for on several sites and sell it for just under that. That's the way business works and there is no getting around it. If I want to sell I have to be cheap. Nothing against nerd but I would never buy a snake from them. Not because I don't want to but because I can't afford to. They price their snakes so high that I'm not willing to pay for the nerd name. I can't get the same quality from some guy breeding out of his basement. Just my .02

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You are entitled to your opinion but once you get that great deal from someone selling his or her animals below what is considered market value then what? Depending on the size of the animal will have to wait to breed it. Then once you do you will see that the price you thought you were going to be getting for them (what you paid for) most likely has decreased by around $150 per animal. So then you market your animals even lower. You see this cycle? It's not about the money but it is important to try and break even at least. Most hobbyist buy base morphs so they are able to create their own multi-gene combos. I'm not saying people don't buy them because they do, but in my mind they are more difficult to sell.

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

And don't you think it would bother you if you have some good quality stock (quality is not ALWAYS in the eye of the beholder) for sale, and some schmuck lists his morphs for a LOT lower? Then you get people emailing you saying "Well this guy listed his for $300 less than yours, will you sell it to me for that price?" Then of course, you get some people who list theirs for that same low price to be competitive, and it starts a horrible chain reaction which ends in the value of the animal lowering significantly.

I don't know how you feel, but it would bother me.

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It wouldn't bother me because I know that if I want to sell more items i will have to lower my prices.

You can keep repeating the word "quality" as a justification for charging more but the fact of the matter is that a starting breeder working out of their basement may produce the same high quality snakes for a lower price.

Simply put, they are your snakes and you can charge whatever you want. Just because you drive down the price on a snake doesn't mean the industry is going down just means a new snake will take its place.

Another thing to thing about is if people didnt put a price tag of 60k on a new snake those people who "intentionally" drive the market down might be less apt to do so.

I also select my snakes carefully and only sell high quality ball pythons but it has nothing to do with needing money, if I can produce a high quality animal and sell it for less I dont see a problem with that.

I want you to explain to me that just because im a starting breeder that im not selling high quality animals.. thats what your saying. I bought a lesser female for $200 and she looks better than most lessers i have seen the big breeders selling.

What it comes down to is your paying for a name attached to the snake and thats fine, but people can and will sell their quality animals for what they want.

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

That really doesn't mean the prices are steady at all. You checked the prices of two animals within the same year. That's hardly a substantial sample of the market. If you read the article you will see a few really good example of morphs that crashed down in price, like the Pinstripe.

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Please read the post I quoted.

Sometimes dropping the price is the only chance a small time unknown breeder has at selling anything.

Think about it this way, if there was a law saying that all pastel females have to be sold for $200 then every female pastel you see for sale would be the same price. So when I'm looking at 20 posts for the same snake what am I going to go with. Obviously looks first but then I'm looking at the big name breeders.

So in the meantime the no name breeders get screwed. Maybe a solution is to have a site where all the big names post and charge what they want and a site where the no names can post whatever they want then every buyer can choose quality over price.

I understand where your coming from but it will never change..

Then you need to focus on producing quality animals. If you continue to produce great looking animals due to your choice in breeding stock then your animals will sell. You could even go as far as putting your reputation on the line with genetics and animals health (as you should already). The reptile and ball python world is a fairly close knit group. If you do right by them they will continue to give you business. How do you think the big name breeders came to be what they are today? Great animals and a great reputation. Choose your stock wisely and you will not have issues.

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Originally Posted by Rat160

It wouldn't bother me because I know that if I want to sell more items i will have to lower my prices.

You can keep repeating the word "quality" as a justification for charging more but the fact of the matter is that a starting breeder working out of their basement may produce the same high quality snakes for a lower price.

Simply put, they are your snakes and you can charge whatever you want. Just because you drive down the price on a snake doesn't mean the industry is going down just means a new snake will take its place.

Another thing to thing about is if people didnt put a price tag of 60k on a new snake those people who "intentionally" drive the market down might be less apt to do so.

I also select my snakes carefully and only sell high quality ball pythons but it has nothing to do with needing money, if I can produce a high quality animal and sell it for less I dont see a problem with that.

I want you to explain to me that just because im a starting breeder that im not selling high quality animals.. thats what your saying. I bought a lesser female for $200 and she looks better than most lessers i have seen the big breeders selling.

What it comes down to is your paying for a name attached to the snake and thats fine, but people can and will sell their quality animals for what they want.

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Just because you're a "basement breeder" doesn't mean that you have to charge less for your snakes. There was another thread on this earlier, in fact. You shouldn't undersell yourself just because you aren't a big name in the industry. People pay for quality, not for a big name.

I think you must have misunderstood me, because I never said that just because you're a beginning breeder means that you are selling subpar animals. Plenty of beginning breeders have quality stock to offer, and they should charge what it's worth.

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Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

Please read the post I quoted.

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I did, please explain to me how that is relevant to my post.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...=1#post1674864

FUNNY

Its not the same as cars so I think the KBB of BP's is a rediculous idea... There is too many factors to take in while buying a BP. And what would they say about the pet store normals for 79.99 for babies with mites and stuck shed? Terrible Idea, If it is dont I will buy a couple copies for target practice. I need to dial in my new sight...

I just started a post coral glow 5k if all goes well I will be able to buy one with re enlistment bonuse for navy...

lol sorry had to lighten the mood on this topic.

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

I did, please explain to me how that is relevant to my post.

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I was contrasting the post in question. I am aware that it's a short time span. I was simply showing that prices did not drop as drastically as the post I quoted was trying to suggest.

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Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

I was contrasting the post in question. I am aware that it's a short time span. I was simply showing that prices did not drop as drastically as the post I quoted was trying to suggest.

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Oh okay, thanks for explaining. I thought you were being serious in the post (obviously). :)

Just a momentary chime in here.

I just put a down payment on a Pinstripe female from Royal Constrictor Design. She was $600, and around 300 grams. This is when I went to Tinley Park.

I could have easily spent that same $600 on a near breeding size female, but you know what? That female was not in the same in the same league with the one I bought. Sure I could have been breeding her probably within a few months, compared to at least two seasons for my new baby. I didn't care. I knew exactly what I wanted my pinstripe to look like, and Garrick had her. Sure there will always be people out there wanting something for nothing, that is the way of the world. But there will also be those of us who are willing to pay for what we want.

Gale

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Just a momentary chime in here.

I just put a down payment on a Pinstripe female from Royal Constrictor Design. She was $600, and around 300 grams. This is when I went to Tinley Park.

I could have easily spent that same $600 on a near breeding size female, but you know what? That female was not in the same in the same league with the one I bought. Sure I could have been breeding her probably within a few months, compared to at least two seasons for my new baby. I didn't care. I knew exactly what I wanted my pinstripe to look like, and Garrick had her. Sure there will always be people out there wanting something for nothing, that is the way of the world. But there will also be those of us who are willing to pay for what we want.

Gale

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I get my Pin in a week and a half! I'm so excited! She's EXACTLY what I think a pin should look like :) Congrats on yours!

My friend bought Champagne ball python at Hamm reptile expo this september and he paid for him 3000e. Yesterday i was looking at the kingsnake.com and there is a Champagne that you can buy for 1500$ males and 2000$ females. Next year they would bee sold for 1000 and 1500$ and dont think that is good. I want like all of you great, beautiful and expencive morph in my collection but if you low prices down like this, what would happen?? Are all of us going to drive lamborghini and live in fancy duplex?? (comparation) It will come too saturation. There is no market if you can have everything you desire.

Im not good in english and cant exactly say what i mean but hope you understand.