Aquarium rocks as substrate.

Just opening this up as i saw it in another thread. Curious as to why this is frowned upon as a substrate.

I have a rack set up and in no way would use this. But as a display cage pet snake I dont see an issue with it, as long as the snake is fed in a seperate container.

Some issues that were raised in another thread were

1. Does not hold humidity
2. Too cold for the snake

My opinions on those are, using paper towel as a substrate holds little to no humidy. So if the keeper kept up on misting i dont see the issue.

As far as too cold. Last time i checked rocks and sand hold heat very well. So if the tank is heated properly with a uth to achieve the right temps. What would the issue be. Also im assuming coming from africa the snakes arent foreign to spending time on sand and rocks.

One thing i could see would be cleaning. It would be an absolute night mare. But thats keeper preferance more so then snake well being.

Just some friendly ideas to be thrown arround in the morning. Heres the pic that sparked my curiosity.http://tapatalk.com/mu/461cf53f-13eb-88f9.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simplex

Just opening this up as i saw it in another thread. Curious as to why this is frowned upon as a substrate.

I have a rack set up and in no way would use this. But as a display cage pet snake I dont see an issue with it, as long as the snake is fed in a seperate container.

Some issues that were raised in another thread were

1. Does not hold humidity
2. Too cold for the snake

My opinions on those are, using paper towel as a substrate holds little to no humidy. So if the keeper kept up on misting i dont see the issue.

As far as too cold. Last time i checked rocks and sand hold heat very well. So if the tank is heated properly with a uth to achieve the right temps. What would the issue be. Also im assuming coming from africa the snakes arent foreign to spending time on sand and rocks.

Just some friendly ideas to be thrown arround in the morning. Heres the pic that sparked my curiosity.http://tapatalk.com/mu/461cf53f-13eb-88f9.jpg

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I suppose this could be done but it would be a major PIA to clean the rocks whenver the snake defecates or urinates.

i agree with ballpythonluvr. It would be an absolute nightmare to clean but i dont see an issue with it bein used given u have proper heating set up. i think people freak out way too much over simple stuff. these snakes have lived for thousands of years without us telling them what they can and cant slither on. besides being a pain to clean i see no reason why it couldnt be used. I for one wont just becouse im not cleaning all those rocks lol.

I would not have massive concerns about cleaning it would be not much worse than newspaper. Change the whole thing wash it in boiling water and let dry and then re-use. humidity is not a problem either humid hides solve that too. I am not advocating however!

My concern is much more serious, accidental ingestion. One bit here and there might not be an issue but sometimes things go wrong and a poor strike or a broken open rat could lead to large amounts being swallowed. Not a single few stones but a number. I know from experience what a mouth full of cyprus can cause (yes it is rare but I had it happen) a solid indigestible lump it won't pass and won't move.

I don't see any benefits to using stone over anything else, it is costly to replace and it will need to be every now and again. The downsides of likely higher chances of digestive issues to my mind makes it a higher risk substrate (I do not believe there is any that are without issues) There are simply better options.

The photo is deceiving as it came from a breeders site that if you look over it that same rock and plant and show up in many other photos I am 90% certain this is a set and nothing more. Someone should write the breeder and ask to be certain but to my mind it is a photo set.

Oh yeh no the cleaning would be my issue. But in the other thread there were comments about bad husbandry. And that if it was a breeder they wouldnt buy from them because of it.

I agree if i was to use those rocks as a substrate id be feeding in a second container.

Doesn't stone or rock hold heat better than most substances (like newspaper, paper towels, aspen....)? I'd think my biggest problem would be the heating problems. Not sure of the actuality of all this, but couldn't the rocks get hotter than the bottom of the tank or tub because they hold heat better? I'd be worried about monitoring the hot spot, and having the temps of the rocks actually being hotter....

I'd also assume since the rocks are all different sizes, even if someone was going to monitor the rocks themselves, the larger rocks would hold heat better than the smaller rocks, causing inconsistent hot spots?

I don't know, maybe all this is not true, I'm not exactly an expert on heating...just a thought...

I don't think I would accuse someone of "bad husbandry" or "neglect" for using something like that as a substrate. I would recommend feeding in a separate container if they choose to do so, though.

However, there are so many other options that are worlds better choices as a substrate, it boggles my mind that anyone would choose to use aquarium rocks. I agree that within that picture itself, it looks more like a photo-set rather than an actual enclosure that animals live in regularly.

The primary purpose of substrate for snakes like ball pythons is to absorb waste. Those rocks won't absorb anything, but they would allow it to pass down below the surface the snake lives on, at least. But as stated already, keeping that clean would be a pretty big pain. Different people have different tolerances for that sort of "pain" though.

But whether you are going for something practical or something attractive...there are just so many better choices.

Those rocks are so close in size I wouldn't think it would matter.

i will give this my best shot, as i have had many fish tank setups and now am doing snakes.

The issue here that i can see with the rocks is that, eventually over time of the rocks being heated for prolonged hours will eventually end up not just a single hotspot but most of the tank becoming hotter than you would want it to. As rocks do get hot and stay hot they also transfer that heat as well, because the molecular structure is dispating the heat so as you can see eventually the area that you were trying to heat has now gone from the size of the uth to a lot bigger. cleaning it wouldn't be that bad just run water over it to get rid of the washable deposits and than visually befor washing taking the hard deposits out, than cook to clean let dry and re-use, i guess to put it easier think about walking on concrete bare foot on a hot day just because the part your standing on is in the shade doesn't mean it cool. humidity wise i think the substrate of rock would matter one way or another unless using something like texas holy rock stones dont really hold water at all it would come down to the tank and how you have it setup.

..... like i said my best description of what i know from experience, i think its more to have a drasctic background to allow the snakes colors to come out better.... but that is me

Here's my opinion.

Aquarium rocks normally are kept in a thick layer like that to look nice. I don't know how well the heat will transfer up through the rocks to the snake, most likely not the best, especially with all the little tiny rocks with edges that do not fit well with the other rocks for optimum heat transfer. There is no way that it would be an efficient use of heating for that reason. Normally you need quality surface area to transfer heat, and i don't see the heat transferring through these little painted rocks.

I don't know if any of you have ever taken rocks OUT of an aquarium to clean, but its a bigger pain than it looks to be. It is actually a long, horrible process. There are tiny little bits of grains of the rocks left behind, smaller versions of rocks, and if you add urine or poo to that mess.. the urine is going to go all around the bottom with no refrain and the poo would get stuck on the rocks. As stated before, you would have to take out all the rocks, boil, and replace. But this takes work, time, getting all the rocks out, wiping all of the rock dust out of the bottom, hoping none of the rocks go into your sink drain by accident, especially if you have a garage disposal (NOT FUN)....

They are expensive as well, used as a substrate.

And to argue against paper towels not holding humidity, I'd like to state that I use paper towels and if you spray the paper towel, it actually does help out quite a bit. I don't need to spray, but I have noticed this when I thought my humidity was too low. I do spray my GTPs though and it keeps humidity high. Rocks ... the only way I can see rocks helping is if you had a thin layer of water underneath, which you'll eventually get if you're having to spray, and then you'll have to worry even more about heat transfer going through another layer before it gets to the rocks and the time it takes to heat up the water...

Also you mention feeding in a separate container, which in ball python land may or may not stress out the snake more and cause less successful feedings, so depending on the snake, I wouldn't recommend using a substrate that you have to feed in a separate container.

Not something I would use, I have fish and cleaning the rocks is not easy. While the rocks in the pic look smooth and polished, there are so many types of rocks available that could be bad.
The rock I have in my aquarium is very rough, to the point of being Sharp, I think it could be bad for their scales and skin over time. Porous rocks would be even harder to clean and sanitize.

With all the substrates available, there are many better options, both in cost and function.

Thanks for making this a thread. When I saw all the backlash for the aquarium rock picture I figured the "why not" could be an interesting discussion.

Also, what about mites or external parasites? You wouldn't be able to treat the enclosure properly or even spot them as easily.

Plus I could imagine the poop or pee sliding right into the rocks to the bottom of the terrarium, leaving it unsanitary and having the enclosure smell like bodily wastes.

Just my opinion though. I'd much rather replace my aspen with a fresh new bag instead of going through the hassle of cleaning aquarium rocks.

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Originally Posted by Bill T

i agree with ballpythonluvr. It would be an absolute nightmare to clean but i dont see an issue with it bein used given u have proper heating set up. i think people freak out way too much over simple stuff. these snakes have lived for thousands of years without us telling them what they can and cant slither on. besides being a pain to clean i see no reason why it couldnt be used. I for one wont just becouse im not cleaning all those rocks lol.

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above highlighted statement....very true!!

anyway, about the rocks, I saw a breeder at a show that heated up rocks and put them into the display case that he had set up to sell snakes out of; they held heat better and kept the temps more stable, plus they looked great!
as for a permanent substrate, seems like a major PIA to me.