line breeding, inbreeding, selective breeding

I have been doing research on the web, on forums, in books etc and I have not been able to find a short sweet to the point answer to ....

What is inbreeding vs line breeding? What is selective breeding and how do they relate to each other if at all? How much is too much and does it very by morph?

Sorry if this has been answered I just cant seem to find the answer Im looking for.

I'll give this a shot.

Inbreeding is breeding closely related animals together for multiple generations. In most animals and people it is frowned upon because it increases the risk of birth defects.

Line breeding is a form of inbreeding, kind of. In line breeding for example, you might cross a daughter to her father or mother to her son to "fix" a certain trait. Usually the resulting offspring are then outcrossed to another line of animals and then sometimes those offspring are brought back to the original line. Such as breeding a het pied male to a het pied female, which results in a pied son. The pied son is then bred back to his mother to produce more pieds. One of those pieds is then bred to an unrelated Cinnamon to produce cinnamon het pieds. One of those cinnamon het pieds can then be bred back to the original het pied female for a chance at cinnamon pieds.

Selective breeding involves choosing breeding stock that shows certain characteristics that are desirable to the breeder, breeding two good animals in hopes of producing a great animal. Using myself as an example. I have a beautiful blush-back cinnamon female, one of the nicest examples of a cinnamon I've ever seen. With her in mind, I bought an amazing mojave male who also has a lot of blushing and reduced pattern. The idea being when bred together, the offspring will have characteristics of both mother and father, and should be stellar examples of Savanna ball pythons and command a higher price than the average savanna.

When I bred my Vanilla male to my amazing light normal female, the babies they produced were indeed lighter and brighter than any other vanillas produced by anyone near me. This is what I was aiming for. In comparing my vanilla babies with the vanilla babies produced by another breeder who is not so selective with his stock, if his babies were what vanillas are supposed to look like, mine looked more like Deserts. There was that much of a difference in color. Dozens of people commented on how exceptionally light my babies were. That is selective breeding.

In general, inbreeding in ball pythons is more forgiven than in other animals, because it doesn't appear to cause the same problems as with most other animals. Perhaps snakes or reptiles in general react differently ? Most serious breeders line breed to one degree or another. Especially when trying to prove out a new morph, it is almost necessary. Anyone can selective breed, and I think more people should. Take the time to select excellent parent stock, and try to improve the morph. Don't just shoot for making as many of a morph as you can just to make them.

I hope this helped a little.

Gale

Inbreeding is the reproduction from the mating of two genetically related parents. Inbreeding results in increased homozygosity, which can increase the chances ofoffspringbeingaffectedby recessive or deleterious traits.
it increase the probability that the two copies of any given gene will be identical and derived from the same ancestor. Technically, the animal is homozygous for that gene. The heterozygous animal has some differences in the two copies of the gene Remember that each animal (or plant, for that matter) has two copies of any given gene (two alleles at each locus, if you want to get technical), one derived from the father and one from the mother. If the father and mother are related, there is a chance that the two genes in the offspring are both identical copies contributed by the common ancestor. This is neither good nor bad in itself.
Linebreeding concentrates the genes of a specific ancestor or ancestors through their appearance multiple times in a pedigree. When a specific ancestor appears more than once behind at least one animal on both the sire's side and yet another animal on the dame's side homozygosity for that animal's traits are possible.

However, if this specific ancestor appears only through a particular offspring of the ancestor in question then the Breeder is actually breeding on this offspring of the ancestor rather than on the ancestor itself. This is why having many "uncovered crosses" to a specific ancestor ( those that come through different offspring of this specific ancestor) gives the Breeder the greatest chance of making the desired traits of the specific ancestor homozygous.

The reason i've heard that some inbreeding is ok in snakes especially is because in the wild they have such a small area in which they travel. A single snake might not leave a area with a 3 mile radius (if the food and habitat are to its liking) in its entire life time. this makes its mating options minimal as compared to other animals that travel thousands of miles in a year. This is just why i heard its ok, if someone could explain why it's more acceptable in snakes then other animals better i'd like to know too.

Inbreeding is okay in snakes because there are not a lot of genetic deformities. In humans, dogs, cats, etc there are a lot of them.

In snakes, we are finding wobble and kinks, but not many more, and they are linked with certain lines.

This may be off, but it is what I was taught.

What you mention about it "being okay" because they don't live closely to one another is not why it is okay, but rather an example that it happens in the wild naturally likely more often than not.

I believe this is a topic that deserves of discussion. There are certain mutations that would not exist if it not for extensive inbreeding - like genetic stripes.

Even so - i think inbreeding is done far too often in this hobby. With the numbers of many base morphs really large (pin/pastel/mojave/spider/lesser/fire etc)....I personally would look to swap for a genetically diverse animal unless there is a particularly rare or unique specimen.

I stated just the other day I regularly introduce new blood into my rat colony for the same reason. As long as the proper precautions are used you should be fine and the cost is so minimal.

As far as whats too much and what is acceptable. I don't have a cut and dry answer nor have I come across one. I know that one line that should never be crossed is line breeding of animals that have a wobble or kink.

Thats just my 2cents as a relative newbie. YMMV

Geez snake lab, so techincal. Did that come from memory?

Nevermind I found your source, thought I would read up on the subject. In case any of you are interested as well. Quite an interesting read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding

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Originally Posted by MidSouthMorphs

Geez snake lab, so techincal. Did that come from memory?

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Lol no copy n paste makes me appear smarter then i am. I just wanted to give a helpful guidline on the subject. I do agree that its not as big of a deal to inbreed with snakes as long as it isnt causing health issues. Now with that said i think there are certain morphs that yhis shouldnt be done with and should be done very carefully such as certain caramel, cinny, and spider stuff. Although some will argue the spider wobble is not a health issue i personally believe it is and was passed down so much because the original animals were inbred so closelly to get them to market. But i do not want to relive that argument on this thread. As far as the caramels and cinnies there is alot of tail kinkers in those morphs and is something that should be bred out. If you have tailkinkers in your line then you should get some new blood to throw into it to try and wash it out. I used to breed pitbulls for over 10 years and in the dog world its alot different. You have to watch very closely how you breed because pedigree is so important. My best friend has the tightest and strongest bloodline in the pitbull world and has done so by utilizing line breeding to a science. With snakes you dont have such an extensive pedigree as you do with dogs plus we breed for the morph and not the pedigree. So i would agree with jessica that it is not such a big deal as long as it is not causing defects and abnormalities.

Off topic but Iron Cross Kennels is one of my favorite kennels. They breed some huge Pits. Both of mine are Gotti and Razors Edge. I love the short, stocky, athletic Pits. Anyways, the Spider wobble can be random, half a clutch can be extreme wobblers and the other half it can almost non-existent.

If you had perfect genes, inbreeding would preserve that perfection. Trouble is you can't always tell. I would inbreed once to preserve some exceptional trait, but then I'd outcross in the next generation. I prefer line breeding when possible. I'd do that twice before an outcross.

Is there any evidence of inbreeding increasing the chances of neurological diseases? Considering there isn't much else we can tell is wrong with a snake since there isn't much room for physical deformities on the body of a snake.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Although some will argue the spider wobble is not a health issue i personally believe it is and was passed down so much because the original animals were inbred so closelly to get them to market.

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I have learned from some semi extensive research that ALL spiders wobble its a matter of how noticable it is. Someone not knowing what to look for and having a spider or spider morph may think it does not have the wobble because it is such a subtle wobble. Also some spiders hatched appear to have no wobble yet develop it later in life and vice versa. Some spiders have it from birth and sometimes it decreases with age and some have it, it goes away and then comes back. I have also learned that the wobble can not be bred out. I guess it depends on how you've researched and what you have come to believe. Here's a link that I feel is the "majority vote" answer to the spider wobble theory.

http://www.arbreptiles.com/lastword/spider_wobble.shtml

I am not touching this debate again lol

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Originally Posted by Salodin

Is there any evidence of inbreeding increasing the chances of neurological diseases? Considering there isn't much else we can tell is wrong with a snake since there isn't much room for physical deformities on the body of a snake.

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I would say yes it does increase the chance because inbreeding tends to reduce the number of genes available within the population. So you reduce the number of genes what are you left with? It's kind of like why breeders inbreed ... to get the best of the best right?? ... well the worst of the worst could happen too.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

I am not touching this debate again lol

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:):P

I wasn't debating lol ... I love my killer bee and his wobble....

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Originally Posted by Salodin

Is there any evidence of inbreeding increasing the chances of neurological diseases?

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Absolutely not! ;)

http://pageonebook.com/wp-content/up...5092914-45.jpg

Surprised a certain pictures from the goonies wasnt used instead...

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by womsterr

Absolutely not! ;)

http://pageonebook.com/wp-content/up...5092914-45.jpg

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Stand by ....................

"The presents of neurological disorders in snakes bred from small or narrowing gene pools, is not conclusive evidence of deleterious effects from morph breeding, but it certainly is cause for concern.

Many disagree, stating that as these neurologically impaired animals still breed, feed and crap and so there is no reason to worry."
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/forum...nbreeding.html

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Inbreeding snakes, breeding closely-related snakes together, increases the probability that any recessive traits hidden in the genome will be expressed. Some recessive traits are desirable, such as albinism, and some may be deleterious.
In general, snakes appear to be highly tolerant of inbreeding. There are a few examples where inbreeding has produced snakes with problems, but considering how much inbreeding has been done in the projects to propagate morphs, inbreeding appears to only rarely have any negative consequences.

http://www.vpi.com/mailbag/2006/11/i...em_to_consider

Of course it's cause for concern, it's just that isn't real room for deformities other then neurological ones in an animal who has no limbs and can only breathe, eat, and poop. Also considering a snakes brain is simple as far as brains go (it only wants to breathe, eat, poop, and have sex) that there isn't much to go wrong; doesn't mean that something can't go wrong though.

I'm incredibly curious as to what the spider gene will look like after 4-5 pairings with each offspring mated off to another normal that is not related to each other in any way; not another morph (especially another recessive morph) just to make sure with a greater certainty that something like a spiders infamous neurological disorders can't be breed out.

Of course, scientifically, it'd technically take a whole lot of time and pairings to do so, but eh.

Scenerio ------->

Male ------- Female (Pair Alpha)
-----offspring------

Same Male (Alpha) ----- Different Female (Pair Bravo)
--------- offspring------------

Same Male (Alpha) ----- Different Female (Pair Charlie)
---------- offspring-----------

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What would you call it if you bred the offspring of:

Alpha with Bravo -------> offspring (Delta)
Bravo with Charlie ------> offspring (Echo)
Alpha with Charlie ------> offspring (Foxtrot)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lets take it another step....

breed:

Delta to Echo
Echo to Foxtrot
Delta to Foxtrot
and so on ...................

Oh boy. This is going to take a little thought.

Ok, if I follow correctly, you have one male {Alpha}, and three females{ Alpha, Bravo and Charlie} ?

You want to know what it's called if you breed the offspring of the double Alpha pair, with offspring from the Bravo pair, right ? That is a mild form of line breeding. These two sets of offspring still have a common ancestor in the Alpha male. It's the same with the other pairs, having one ancestor in common is a mild form of line breeding.

Now, by the time you breed the offspring of those offspring, you've taken the common ancestor down to great grandparent status, and at that point it is very mild line breeding at best.

I'm going to try and write this out a different way and see if I'm correct.

Pair 1: Spider male & pastel female - 1/4 chance at a bumblebee

Pair 2: Spider male & pinstripe female - 1/4 chance at a spinner

Pair 3: Spider male & Cinnamon female - 1/4 chance at a cinnabee

You breed the bumblebee to the spinner and you get a 2/16 spinner blast.

You breed the spinner to the cinnabee and you get a 2/16 chance at a cinna-spin

You breed the bumblebee to the cinnabee and you get a 2/16 chance at a pewter spider.

Now, breed these once again.

A spinner blast to a cinna-spin gives you a 2/64 chance at a pewter super spinner

A cinna-spin to a pewter spider gives you a 2/64 chance at a super cinny spinner blast

A pewter spider to a spinner blast gives you a 2/64 chance at a sterling pastel spinner.

So can you see the further out you take the common ancestor, the less like line breeding it is ? The genes are still there, but they hold less sway over the offspring.

Gale

Thanks for your breakdown it really put it into a better perspective :)