Why I would NEVER do Maternal Incubation.

This is a spinoff from this thread: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...nal-Incubation

Here are the reasons I would NEVER do Maternal Incubation:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Maternal Incubation would be something fun to "play" with if your breeding normals, or working with inexpensive snakes. But for those of us breeding higher dollar snakes it is something I would never even begin to consider, and for good reason.

1.) Cost. You can build an excellent simple incubator for less then $300. Mine is four years old and still works perfectly. Considering it has successfully incubated more then $60,000 worth of snake babies, I would say that the less then $300 spent on it is absolutely irrelevant.

2.) The babies. I have total control over the babies. Because of all the work our founding snake fathers have done, I know exactly what the perfect incubation temperature, humidity, conditions are and can consistently provide the best possible conditions to insure the highest hatch rate and the healthiest babies in the end.

3.) The what if's. My incubator is a completely insulated large cooler. The bottom is covered with full water bottles for temperature stabilization. In the event of extended power loss, even in cooler weather, I will be fine. In fact it has happened. Because it is an insulated cooler it holds temperatures WAY better then a rack ever could. The water bottles on the bottom retain heat for a long time in that insulated scenario. When my power went out it was 24 hours before my cooler temperature dropped 10 degrees. At that point I ended up plugging the incubator into my car power inverter for two hours to bring it back up to temperature. About 20 hours later when I was ready to heat it up again the power was restored. The whole thing probably ended up costing me a gallon of gas. There was over $11,000 worth of eggs in the incubator at the time.

4.) the mom. I want those eggs away from the mom the second they are out of her. The day she lays the snake is removed and the tub is scrubbed top to bottom. That next day she is offered food for first time. I then put her on a very heavy feeding schedule feeding multiple rats often. My number one goal is to get the weight back on her absolutely as quickly as possible so she is ready to lay an even larger clutch the next season. Yes the mom may eat some while she is incubating the kids but she isn't eating nearly enough. "playing around" with maternal incubation could cause her to not gain enough weight back in time for the next season. At this point in the game a missed year for some of my females could be a loss of $10,000 worth of babies.

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I guess if your breeding on a larger scale like yourself, I see your point. If someone like myself, who will only be looking at a couple clutches (like you stated) it probably isn't as big a deal. I'll be breeding my pin, pastels, spider going the long route to some(hopefully) bees, lemonblasts, super pastels and so on. Since I'm not worried about the money so much I'm looking forward to trying maternal incubation on a couple clutches.

i too am contemplating maternal incubation the season after next. i have a normal female reduced pattern black back dinker that when she is big enough will get my male reduced pattern dinker. this clutch is inportant but not as much as say my gargoyle clutches or killer bee ones. the more expensive clutches will be in the incubator while the one clutch i may try maternal incubation. not for any other reason than to say i have done it and to experience it for my self.
adam jeffery
while we may have the knowledge to artificially incubate eggs, the balls themselves have been doing it for much longer and much better than us. the eggs seem to hatch out bigger babies that are stronger and exit the egg sooner. their are benefits to both.

I have done artificial incubation in the past and I just don't have good luck with it. Granted, it was a Hovabator the first time and then a mini-fridge incubator the next but both times I lost eggs and it's one of the worst feelings in the world to watch a perfectly healthy egg go downhill in the course of a week. I may not be very good at maintaining eggs in an incubator but my females are born to do it and I'm very good at maintaining the temp and humidity in my snake's tubs. That's why I prefer this route. So far I have not lost any eggs left with brooding mothers. Now I have no way of knowing if the eggs that died in an incubator in the previous years would have survived if left with their mothers but I'm far more comfortable with letting their mother look after them and I look after their mother. The first female I ever bred maternally incubated her clutch and all eggs hatched out perfectly healthy. She has done this three years in a row now and I've only lost one baby due to severe kinking that I believe came as a result to a heat spike in the room (since more than one clutch was affected with abnormalities). I'll be giving her the upcoming season off because she more than deserves a break but she ate small rats (she usually receives smalls or mediums when not on eggs) throughout and would be ready to go again if I needed her to.

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Originally Posted by CCfive

I guess if your breeding on a larger scale like yourself, I see your point. If someone like myself, who will only be looking at a couple clutches (like you stated) it probably isn't as big a deal. I'll be breeding my pin, pastels, spider going the long route to some(hopefully) bees, lemonblasts, super pastels and so on. Since I'm not worried about the money so much I'm looking forward to trying maternal incubation on a couple clutches.

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It has nothing to do with scale... assuming in your example of breeding simple morph male to simple morph females... If for whatever reason you had 1 more egg hatch as result of an incubator vs loosing one because of maternal incubation, you have more then paid for the incubator, even on such a small scale.

That said, there is nothing wrong with someone trying out maternal incubation for whatever reason. With all the threads lately going around about the subject, I feel it is important for especially newer people to see why some of us would never even consider maternal incubation.

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Originally Posted by adamjeffery

iwhile we may have the knowledge to artificially incubate eggs, the balls themselves have been doing it for much longer and much better than us. the eggs seem to hatch out bigger babies that are stronger and exit the egg sooner. their are benefits to both.

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1.) The idea that moms know how to incubate better then us while being forced to live in a man made unnatural enivroment is a stretch at best.
2.) I have never seen any information that suggests that babies resulting from maternal incubation have been bigger or stronger then those incubated in incubators.
3.) Babies do NOT exit the egg sooner during maternal incubation. The opposite is the norm.

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

IThe first female I ever bred maternally incubated her clutch and all eggs hatched out perfectly healthy. She has done this three years in a row now and I've only lost one baby due to severe kinking that I believe came as a result to a heat spike in the room (since more than one clutch was affected with abnormalities).

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This is the kind of freak thing that can be totally avoided with a properly set up incubator. Can my incubator suffer from some kind of freak heat spike? Yes, but because I use a second thermostat specifically to protect against this, the eggs would be fine.

In fact, short of the room catching on fire, I am pretty well covered in almost any scenario... and even in the event of a fire, I would much rather my eggs be in the incubator then a rack. :D

Incubators are what i'm using for my first season, I made my own incubator and feel it is the best/safest way for my eggs since I don't want to loose anything!

Cost:
Coca cola fridge: 50
Thermostat: 118
Incubator Fan: 20
Shelving: 20
5 Egg Boxes and medium: 10
Heat tape: had extra

Total: 218

This incubator will hold 16 clutches comfortably with not much temp fluctuation. Cost less than a Pinstripe Female!! I'm a beginner breeder but I still feel that incubation, cutting eggs and using mediums are a great way to 1. better your clutches, and 2. cause less deaths.

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http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/...y4321/11-1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

1.) The idea that moms know how to incubate better then us while being forced to live in a man made unnatural enivroment is a stretch at best.
2.) I have never seen any information that suggests that babies resulting from maternal incubation have been bigger or stronger then those incubated in incubators.
3.) Babies do NOT exit the egg sooner during maternal incubation. The opposite is the norm.

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1. Of course they know how to incubate better than us. We have to pore through books, guides and forums or ask each other what we're doing and why. They instinctively know to seek out a suitable nest site and then tightly coil around their eggs once their laid. When they leave the eggs to feed, they don't have to be told to go regroup and recoil their clutch. Unless you have issues with maintaining an adequate environment for the snake, there should be no conflict for a brooding female.

2. There is this.. http://www.cebc.cnrs.fr/publipdf/2005/AEER7.pdf

3. The earliest I've had babies hatch has been 53 days and the latest has been this year at 70 days. The same time variation can occur in artificial incubators. I don't think there's any reason to believe that babies will emerge more quickly in one scenario over the other but I would say that the babies who incubate longer (at normal temps) are more likely to hatch out larger/stronger than their counterparts and that goes for maternally or artificially incubated clutches.

From my clutches in the incubator this season, my earlier hatching eggs made huge babies, the later eggs had small babies. Perhaps I'm just skewing the grade curve.

I see so many people fussing over their snakes not eating for a couple weeks, yet they are willing to have a female that hasn't eaten regularly for about a month(while gravid) go through a further TWO MONTHS of not eating, just to have the maternal incubation?

And how exactly is a female going to "instinctively know to seek out a suitable nest site" when being kept captive? Are you allowing her to roam the wilds of africa or keeping her in a secure enclosure? She has the "choice" of "the enclosure" or.... "the enclosure". It's not as if the female can crawl out and adjust the thermostat herself.

If someone wants to try maternal incubation and doesn't mind having a female basically fast for nearly 3 full months in order to do so, fine. *I* won't ever do it, because I prefer to allow my females to eat and recover from being gravid. I fuss over the weight they lose just producing eggs, I won't add to it by refusing to incubate the eggs for her.

I have not tried maternally incubation. Though the previous year I thought the same... Females would be fasting through incubation. But I have watched one of tempests threads on maternal incubation. The females did eat from what I saw they ate still covering their nests. Small
Meals but they didn't fast. I found the whole thing Fascinating. Really. Though I'd like to give it a go I have good luck with my incubator. And I like having that access and control with the eggs.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

Yes the female knows how to incubate better then us. If they ate in africa in their world under natural circumstances but not in captivity where they live in tubs with a human syressing them out, disturbing them, cleaning their cage, opening and closing their tub to look. Yes they know how to regulate temps, but why chance it. You can be succesful with maternal incubation but when incubating eggs you want the odds in your favor. Your best odds are when you incubate with an incubator. It does not take long for eggs to go bad if they have too much temp flucuation. With a good incubator you dont have this problem. I have a walk in incubator made out of a converted walk in closet and i can control every aspect of incubation perfect. I have excellent odds with large quantities of clutches. Whether your doing 1 clutch or 100 clutches your main goal is not to loose eggs so if you can sway the odds in your favor then why wouldnt you do it. Again im not saying you cant do maternal incubation but im talking odds. Now i know a couple big breeders that do maternal incubation but if you saw their setups and the scope of the money that they spend on their facilities you would flip. So whats it worth to you? Too many people think cause they see the ball python market that they can get into it and just put snakes together and make a fortune are kidding themselves. You have to spend money to make it and at the end of the day it is a money driven industry and you wouldnt have the morphs you have today if it wasnt.

Sorry for the mistyping. Fat thumbs on an evo keyboard sucks hahaha

Wow!!! People, different strokes for different folks. There is no one correct way to do anything, and everyone has their own way they prefer to maintain their husbandry. If the animal is cared for properly and all the eggs hatch out healthy babies, who cares how it's done?

Also my female that is maternally incubating eats a medium ft rat every week and she looks great.

Ok guys..really. You have to stop the whole "she knows how to incubate the eggs better then I do" thing...

I would venture to say that if she was in the wild in Africa... You might be close to right... But in captivity... ABSOLUTELY NOT.

We keep our egg bearing females in cb70 tubs. That means from the furthest point to the furthest point she has about 30 inches to choose from... And keep in mind a 2,000 gram female is at Least a 12 Inch circumference while coiled around the eggs. So let's face it. Depending on the placement of the water bowl... A maternal incubating mom pretty much has to choose between the single cold spot, or the single ot spot. That's it. And lets not forget, she can't exactly move her eggs when conditions change.

Please whatever you do in this debate.. Do not suggest you are doing what is best for the female by forcing her to incubate the eggs in the forced environment you have created for her. :colbert:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

From my clutches in the incubator this season, my earlier hatching eggs made huge babies, the later eggs had small babies. Perhaps I'm just skewing the grade curve.

I see so many people fussing over their snakes not eating for a couple weeks, yet they are willing to have a female that hasn't eaten regularly for about a month(while gravid) go through a further TWO MONTHS of not eating, just to have the maternal incubation?

And how exactly is a female going to "instinctively know to seek out a suitable nest site" when being kept captive? Are you allowing her to roam the wilds of africa or keeping her in a secure enclosure? She has the "choice" of "the enclosure" or.... "the enclosure". It's not as if the female can crawl out and adjust the thermostat herself.

If someone wants to try maternal incubation and doesn't mind having a female basically fast for nearly 3 full months in order to do so, fine. *I* won't ever do it, because I prefer to allow my females to eat and recover from being gravid. I fuss over the weight they lose just producing eggs, I won't add to it by refusing to incubate the eggs for her.

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They know in the same sense that they know where to go for warmth, for water, or for shelter (hide). A gravid female getting closer to her lay date will find a spot she's most comfortable in to lay her eggs. If you go to the trouble of making a nest box for her, she would likely use it. An exception to the rule would be stressed or first time moms who wind up laying eggs all over the enclosure or laying their clutch in a pile and avoiding it altogether as if they didn't know what was happening or didn't want to have anything to do with it.

Balls aren't typically spending all their time roaming the wilds of Africa, either. They are ambush predators and spend the majority of their time in abandoned burrows or dens that may provide even less space than the tubs we use in racks. The biggest difference I see between those in the wild and those living in captivity is that our snakes don't have to travel far to find water or safe basking sites. All of it is readily provided for them and most captive born animals are accustomed to our human intrusion. There are currently 6 adult female ball pythons in my collection and 3 sub-adult females. All of them are very relaxed when we are working around them in their tubs. All of our snakes are pets first and foremost and they all get handled on a regular basis. They do have a tendency to become much more defensive once eggs are in the equation, but they are very lax with me checking in on them. I would not keep a snake that was openly aggressive. I understand if you have a much larger collection it may not be easy to keep tabs on individual animals and it may be more difficult to learn that particular animal's quirks and attitude. For us, we make it a point to do so.


Ball pythons are notorious for going through periods of fasting so a skipped meal here or there isn't an issue and several skipped meals while gravid is to be expected but a brooding mom can and will eat if you offer her meals. She'll gain weight and can be ready to go again the following season.

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If you have good luck and good odds using artificial incubation methods that's great. I have had good luck and odds with maternal incubation and I have no reason to invest in or build additional incubators and incubation media to simulate what I'm already doing. I do have an incubator that could be used as a Plan B should a mother neglect or abandon her clutch but I have not had to use it for any of my ball clutches.

I am sorry quiet tempest but even the pictures you are showing to back your argument are showing more reasons why I would never even consider it. The rats you are feeding... Are they live? If so what if an egg was punctured during the strike or during the struggle? If you are feeding f/t why would you want the bacteria, urine, and feces of a rat that has been dead for months getting on the eggs? Clearly at least that much is happening. Not to mention the normal convulsions of a her swallowing the rat.. Don't think that can cause a kinked baby or at least a complication? Trust me, snakes in the wild do NOT eat WHILE coiled around the eggs!

I agree with you as far as wild ball pythons not just openly roaming the wild of Africa... But I assure you they have plenty more choices when picking Their nest then the 30 inch tub you provide... They only have two choices with you. The hot spot or the cold spot. That's it.

Most of them get fresh killed but some have a preference for live while brooding. Who's to say prey animals don't wander into the dens of African brooding moms? When they do they would most certainly either be killed and eaten or frightened away by the mother. The eggs are very hardy and protect the growing embryos. Healthy eggs aren't consumed by mold, for instance. Just reading about some of the mishaps on here it's evident that eggs are not so delicate that they can't handle a few bumps and scrapes. As for rats scratching the eggs, it hasn't happened yet and probably isn't going to. I take the same precautions to prevent my snakes being clawed or bitten - I supervise feedings and if I'm feeding live I watch to be sure claws and teeth aren't causing any harm. A good strike and coil usually ensures that the rat will die quickly and pose no threat to the snake but I watch and am ready to intervene if I think it necessary.

I've done both. IMO everybody should know how to do both or know about both ways, or else what are you really doing this for? Just money or to actually learn something? I'm doing it to learn something either way. IMO again, if you have $10,000 worth of babies or what not, you should have the greatest Incubator known to man and not try to make people feel :cens0r: for what they have to work with starting out(not saying that's happening). I'm just saying let people do what they want, were here to help them in there choices not try to push our beliefs on them.

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Originally Posted by KingPythons

IMO again, if you have $10,000 worth of babies or what not, you should have the greatest Incubator known to man and not try to make people feel :cens0r: for what they have to work with starting out(not saying that's happening). I'm just saying let people do what they want, were here to help them in there choices not try to push our beliefs on them.

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Having only read this thread (and not the one linked above), it doesn't seem like anyone's trying to PUSH one method over the other - they're just stating what works for them, and explaining why. And as a relative newbie in the breeding game, I appreciate hearing the opinions from both sides!

Personally I like artificial incubation, for all of the reasons mentioned by Mike... I've done two clutches now, one with a converted mini-fridge and one with a Little Giant (like a Hovabator), and 100% of the viable eggs have hatched perfectly. The idea of trying maternal incubation is intriguing, and since I'm not breeding anything fancy, maybe I'll try it with one clutch in the future. But it wasn't even an option this year, due to my only laying female being dangerously thin - she'd only eaten a few meals that year, and I wasn't even expecting eggs from her! So I really wanted to get her eating ASAP, and luckily she's been chowing like a pig ever since. ;)

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks for the discussion, since it is helpful to us newbies... and while I see a few of you getting defensive, I'm not reading these comments as "my way or the highway" at all.

To those who have experience with maternal incubation, is it less time consuming? Easier? Seems like it would be more interesting and fun!

Trying to convince others that your way (regardless of which way you're advocating) is the only way is silly. There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods.

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Originally Posted by KingPythons

I've done both. IMO everybody should know how to do both or know about both ways, or else what are you really doing this for? Just money or to actually learn something? I'm doing it to learn something either way. IMO again, if you have $10,000 worth of babies or what not, you should have the greatest Incubator known to man and not try to make people feel :cens0r: for what they have to work with starting out(not saying that's happening). I'm just saying let people do what they want, were here to help them in there choices not try to push our beliefs on them.

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Truly spoken... to each his own... We are not here to make each other feel in anyway inferior as we all provide for these animals to the best of our capacity... and may the worst of fate come to those that cause these defenceless creatures unnecessary suffering... My name is Alvin Herbert and I am a Herpiholic :D

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Originally Posted by piedplus

To those who have experience with maternal incubation, is it less time consuming? Easier? Seems like it would be more interesting and fun!

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I think it's easier, but it's no less time consuming than artificial incubation.

Both methods when it comes to eating have about the same problems. Either they gain there weight fast or gain it slow. I've heard stories where they took the eggs and incubated them and the female wouldn't eat, when she did was after the babies hatched. When I did maternal incubation, my lesser was skinny but she ate that first time I offered. My Axanthic, when I put her eggs in the incubator she ate two days after. I think it's safe to say it all depends on the ball itself. Also your cleaning methods. It's all the same as long as they eat.

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

I think it's easier, but it's no less time consuming than artificial incubation.

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Thanks for all of the great information you have supplied to this thread. While I have never tried maternal incubation myself, it is just easier for me to monitor a lot of clutches in one spot, it is very interesting to know more about an aspect of the hobby that I am ignorant of. Learning something new about a species that one works with is invaluable to their ability to understand everything their animal is doing, and possibly why they are doing it. This has been one of the best threads I have read in quite some time.

Thanks again,

I've went both routes with corns and had ups and downs on both aspects. From simple human error to emergency artificial incubation because the not so happy mommies laid and decided the eggs weren't worth the time. and 100% viable for maternal and artificial. I enjoyed the more relaxed feel of the maternal but when it came down to brass tacks I suppose more or less I couldn't sit idly by and watch the lives of the 'lings hang in the balance.... not to mention the potential hundreds of dollars for lack of better term..... lay where they may. And I plan on starting BP's this up coming season and since one of my clutches are going to be a norm dinker to a norm fem I was considering the idea my self.. But I can't see myself even considering it for my Spider clutch. I guess my mentality hasn't changed much over the years.. When it comes to down to it.. I can't see my self risking the lives of the babies that my serpents have spent all season ramping up for go to waste... or the potential income which is needed for their own well being.. And mine. And as I type this I know it seems like I am trying to avoid the fact that I am in this for the money, I'm not trying to.. I am in this for the money, yes.. But I'm also in this for my love of the animals and love of learning. I was searching for a few postings on Maternal so thanks for that one Quite Tempest. I think I'll have to continue following both posts as they progress...

And wow I just realized I went fishing in the abyss... Didn't mean to do that =\

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Originally Posted by psionic

I've went both routes with corns and had ups and downs on both aspects...

And wow I just realized I went fishing in the abyss... Didn't mean to do that =\

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I didn't think corns stayed with their eggs.

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"I want those eggs away from the mom the second they are out of her. The day she lays the snake is removed and the tub is scrubbed top to bottom. That next day she is offered food for first time. I then put her on a very heavy feeding schedule feeding multiple rats often. My number one goal is to get the weight back on her absolutely as quickly as possible so she is ready to lay an even larger clutch the next season"

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This makes me sad.
Unfortunately, this seems to be the way of thinking for the "new school" of impatient, breeders these days....

I have a small collection, nothing special, common starter morphs. I have had two clutches to date, both maternally incubated. first clutch had 5 eggs.. all but one made it.. baby died coming out of the egg. second clutch again 5 eggs all babies are healthy in fact 3 pewters and two not so normal normals. Both moms ate while coiled on the eggs. Will I continue to use this method. Yes. will I ever try the other method.. perhaps. I do not feel that doing maternal incubation is risking the lives of the babies any more than artificial incubation. each method has its own risks but the reward is the same, healthy babies, and that is something everyone wants!

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Originally Posted by John1982

I didn't think corns stayed with their eggs.

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Think you're right.

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Originally Posted by mykee

This makes me sad.
Unfortunately, this seems to be the way of thinking for the "new school" of impatient, breeders these days....

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Glad to see this post! Thank you!

I'll consider releasing some photos of morph females on eggs real soon. I don't recall seeing any, at any time, ever... Anybody?

After going both routes for years.. Maternal Incubation is where we are from here on out... Have fun with your Incubators! :D

I like the predictability and reliability of using an incubator. I also like getting the female back on a nutritious feeding schedule sooner than later.

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Originally Posted by Tom Pecanic

Glad to see this post! Thank you!

I'll consider releasing some photos of morph females on eggs real soon. I don't recall seeing any, at any time, ever... Anybody?

After going both routes for years.. Maternal Incubation is where we are from here on out... Have fun with your Incubators! :D

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Just awesome. I have a girl I will try it with this year.

If you're using quality thermostats I don't see how the incubator should be the more predictable/reliable of the two. Sure in the rack there's a gradient but BPs in the wild also have a range of temperatures from which to choose yet seem more than capable of getting it right. As to using artificial to get the female back on food asap, I completely agree with this reasoning for the choice.

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Originally Posted by Tom Pecanic

Glad to see this post! Thank you!

I'll consider releasing some photos of morph females on eggs real soon. I don't recall seeing any, at any time, ever... Anybody?

After going both routes for years.. Maternal Incubation is where we are from here on out... Have fun with your Incubators! :D

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Saw one of your pics in the sticky and think it's adorable. Grats! :)

I'm in Barbados I could easily leave my eggs and mom in the tub without heat and they will hatch :)

We haven't had a problem with brooding mothers eating yet. They have all taken their food weekly on eggs as they did before laying.

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Originally Posted by mykee

This makes me sad.
Unfortunately, this seems to be the way of thinking for the "new school" of impatient, breeders these days....

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The OP sold off his collection early this year. This thread is over a year old.

I would like to try maternal incubation, but I am so afraid I would screw things up.

Everyone decides to do things their own way, and I think that's great.