BHB's Feeding Experiment

Did any of you see the results for BHB's feeding experiment?

The results were (in order of best performance) and correct me if I misheard:

1) 1 bigger than normal meal once a week
2) Standard meal with vitamins once a week.(This really surprised Brian)
3) Standard meal once per week (Control)
4) Smaller than normal meal twice a week

The difference between the largest and smallest snakes that were the same age was stunning.

I believe it was last weeks video so check it out if you haven't yet.

Now this was done on colubrids but I was wondering if pythons and other snake species would work that same way.

What do you guys think?

from what ive seen (with my bps at least) is either one larger than avg once a week or one medium sized meal twice a week. but the less than avg or one normal a week justtt doesnt cut it haha

I've generally found the same thing to be true. Maru hasn't been accepting his regular sized prey, so I switched to multiple smaller items and he definitely lost some weight and struggles to keep it on, despite eating more food than he normally would have since he isn't refusing meals

I saw this video. The size difference was incredible. I would love to see the larger prey items with vitamins. I wonder the difference there. Also do you know what vitamins he used?

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Yeah, I saw that too Chris... I think the results speak for themselves and would translate similar to ball pythons. I have never fed with vitamins, but aside from that my feeding experience has yielded the same results. Bigger prey items per week resulted in increased wight gain. Standard meals controlled weight and allowed for a steady gain in weight. Smaller items twice a week has only been used here and there on problem feeders in my collection and only in that situation.

I saw it too I know Brian is concerned with rapid weigh gain but I am not a professional breeder I wonder which is healthier? It is likely more complex than it seems on the surface. I don't have any more answers than any one else, just questions. I have been thinking about using a vitamin before (F/T debate) I am now a bit more interested in that.

This probably only works with young snakes that are growing fast. Once an animal slows down they may become fat and unhealthy. Nobody likes a fat snake. I'm gonna stick with appropriately sized prey but this is just my opinion.

Link to video?

NVM I obviously can't read for myself

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

Did any of you see the results for BHB's feeding experiment?

The results were (in order of best performance) and correct me if I misheard:

1) 1 bigger than normal meal once a week
2) Standard meal with vitamins once a week.(This really surprised Brian)
3) Standard meal once per week (Control)
4) Smaller than normal meal twice a week

The difference between the largest and smallest snakes that were the same age was stunning.

I believe it was last weeks video so check it out if you haven't yet.

Now this was done on colubrids but I was wondering if pythons and other snake species would work that same way.

What do you guys think?

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Many species of colubrid do not do well when fed large meals. They do very poorly in fact.

For example, various pituophis are notorious for being unable to handle bigger meals and do better on multiple small prey items.

Im interested in the vitamin part

Tried to edit my post. But for others who don't or can't read the non bold print


http://snakebytes.tv/index.php?optio...=284&Itemid=14

Those were some interesting results. I'd be interested as well what the vitamins include. I wonder if they dust the rodents like insects, or how they administer the vitamins.

Wait a second... bigger prey items lead to greater growth?!

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6151/...722bbcb4ab.jpg

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Originally Posted by MarkieJ

Wait a second... bigger prey items lead to greater growth?!

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6151/...722bbcb4ab.jpg

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Last time this was talked about when they started this test it seems the majority of people on the forums believed that the smaller prey items more often would lead to the most growth and a lot felt that vitamins wouldn't really do much since the rodents were whole prey items. I think that's why so many people are so interested in this right now!

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Originally Posted by MarkieJ

Wait a second... bigger prey items lead to greater growth?!

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6151/...722bbcb4ab.jpg

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+1...

It's no different then humans...eatting a giant meal once a day is going to make you fatter then 3-5 smaller meals a day. Vitamins are vitamins, regardless of what the food item is; take in more vitamins and minerals then is normally acquired in your food and your body will respond accordingly. I read the list in the OP and thought every single one of those was common sense...

What the real experiment should be is if power feeding the meal item that is slightly larger then what is "normal" for the bp is detrimental to the snakes health, if it has any negative consequences, or none at all. I find that far more interesting, and would reveal a lot about the industry imo...

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Those were some interesting results. I'd be interested as well what the vitamins include. I wonder if they dust the rodents like insects, or how they administer the vitamins.

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This part is interesting as well, since it has the potential to show a few things. If the vitamins were just dusted onto the prey items, then it's no big deal. But if the vitamins were fed to the mice, which in turn were fed to the snake, then that would be huge and imo open up a whole new market of "vitamin enriched" mice/rats for people to spend their hard earned money on in order to feed their snakes. The type of vitamins would also be very relevant, since that too could play into the future of "snake food".

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Originally Posted by purplemuffin

Last time this was talked about when they started this test it seems the majority of people on the forums believed that the smaller prey items more often would lead to the most growth and a lot felt that vitamins wouldn't really do much since the rodents were whole prey items. I think that's why so many people are so interested in this right now!

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Again, I caution that many colubrids will not do well on a large prey diet. They will regurge and regurge and get very sick. The rule is multiple small prey items more often.

This is why this type of information needs to be given out with a heavy cautionary statement. Many species such as drymarchon, spilotes, pseustes, pituophis, thrasops, rhamphiophis, some elaphe, pseudelaphe, bogertophis etc. will have issues with large prey items. Many of these species are notorious for going downhill fast when fed large items. Drawing any sort of conclusions from this "experiment" outside of corn snakes probably is not a good idea. Knowing the issues with jani, for example, I hope that someone doesn't watch this and start feeding their deppei jani babies large meals.

So the stress would be that this was done on corns, and should not be considered wise to apply to all colubrid species.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Again, I caution that many colubrids will not do well on a large prey diet. They will regurge and regurge and get very sick. The rule is multiple small prey items more often.

This is why this type of information needs to be given out with a heavy cautionary statement. Many species such as drymarchon, spilotes, pseustes, pituophis, thrasops, rhamphiophis, some elaphe, pseudelaphe, bogertophis etc. will have issues with large prey items. Many of these species are notorious for going downhill fast when fed large items. Drawing any sort of conclusions from this "experiment" outside of corn snakes probably is not a good idea. Knowing the issues with jani, for example, I hope that someone doesn't watch this and start feeding their deppei jani babies large meals.

So the stress would be that this was done on corns, and should not be considered wise to apply to all colubrid species.

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The problem with both your statement and the experiment is that it is all relative; there is no actual base line for what is "larger". I haven't seen the actual data (I wish the op linked me to something lol), but it's easy to make a statement like yours with no prior knowledge of the species at all because well...for a snake killing and eatting 25% of your body weight might not be too difficult, it's keeping it down will be difficult (which to your credit is what you are saying).

However, if say the "normal" size prey is 10% bw, and the "larger prey item" is say 15%, that is not a world of difference even though it is technically a 50% increase in weight consumed (compared to a 250% increase). I'm just throwing out numbers, but I think I get the point across.

So again, with out real specifics and data, it's hard to say either way; this goes double when to my knowledge the health risks associated with power feeding a snake are not known at this time. This whole thing should be taken with a grain of salt, but the results do open up a gateway so to say for future experiments to take place.

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Originally Posted by Salodin

The problem with both your statement and the experiment is that it is all relative; there is no actual base line for what is "larger". I haven't seen the actual data (I wish the op linked me to something lol), but it's easy to make a statement like yours with no prior knowledge of the species at all because well...for a snake killing and eatting 25% of your body weight might not be too difficult, it's keeping it down will be difficult (which to your credit is what you are saying).

However, if say the "normal" size prey is 10% bw, and the "larger prey item" is say 15%, that is not a world of difference even though it is technically a 50% increase in weight consumed (compared to a 250% increase). I'm just throwing out numbers, but I think I get the point across.

So again, with out real specifics and data, it's hard to say either way; this goes double when to my knowledge the health risks associated with power feeding a snake are not known at this time. This whole thing should be taken with a grain of salt, but the results do open up a gateway so to say for future experiments to take place.

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You stole the thoughts from my head. I am interested in the actual numbers. I have found that with my 2 snakes (ball python and diamond x jungle carpet) about 50% of what the snakes eats gets retained as body weight while they are growing. My carpet python who is new to me weighed in at 105 grams when I got her and was 201 before her last feeding. She had eaten 181 grams total in that time. That's retaining 53% of each feeding as body weight. Personally with all I have read I would not feed more than every 4 days and no more than 20% of their body weight while they are young and growing fast. I personally shoot for every 5 days and try to feed between 10% and 20%. Nothing in this study really surprised me but I am holding out to see how the total weekly prey weight compared between the snakes fed multiple smaller meals and the the ones fed normal meals.

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Originally Posted by Salodin

The problem with both your statement and the experiment is that it is all relative; there is no actual base line for what is "larger". I haven't seen the actual data (I wish the op linked me to something lol), but it's easy to make a statement like yours with no prior knowledge of the species at all because well...for a snake killing and eatting 25% of your body weight might not be too difficult, it's keeping it down will be difficult (which to your credit is what you are saying).

However, if say the "normal" size prey is 10% bw, and the "larger prey item" is say 15%, that is not a world of difference even though it is technically a 50% increase in weight consumed (compared to a 250% increase). I'm just throwing out numbers, but I think I get the point across.

So again, with out real specifics and data, it's hard to say either way; this goes double when to my knowledge the health risks associated with power feeding a snake are not known at this time. This whole thing should be taken with a grain of salt, but the results do open up a gateway so to say for future experiments to take place.

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Don't put to much thought into this because it's precautionary, and I am not advocating weighing each prey item before feeding it to the snake. I make no ASSumptions as to what BHB was shooting for - as far as I'm concerned they have posted information that could be taken the wrong way and lead to a sick or dead snake (depending on the species). It's their "experiment" that needs defining not my advice to stick to smaller more manageable prey items.

Some species need prey items that are small relative to the size of the animal or risk immediate health complications - that fact is inarguable. With ball pythons and boa constrictors, people often advocate larger items in relation to the circumference of the snake.

However, you feed a neonate spilotes a meal that will lead to a sizable lump in his tummy and you are courting disaster. You feed it two prey items relatively small to it's size and you are safe.

People who breed and raise various colubrids, especially, deppei deppei, deppei jani, etc. all advocate it and they do it without making a rocket science out of it. It's a simple guideline and it's meant to prevent vomiting and gastric damage. These animals are notorious for not handling prey items that approach the circumference of the animal.

For a long long time I've sold various colubrids with the specific direction to new owners to feed items that are small relative to the size of the animal. Never had someone screw up that advice, misunderstand it, etc. until some nit wit advocates otherwise.

I've have had people who come to forums sites and confuse ball python feeding guidelines with colubrid guidelines. For a couple of feedings the animal has no issues and then all of a sudden they begin to develop chronic regurge issues.

My entire statement is based on what is relative - that's why I've highlighted the word so many times. The food sizes are relative to the size, not weight, of the snake.

The dangers of feeding larger prey items for certain snakes are apparent, I don't think any one disagrees with that; I think it more influences people to feed the normal sized food item once a week versus two smaller sized items. Your mileage may vary I'm sure.

I still think the most interesting part though is the vitamin fed snakes. In the comments section he said he fed them Zoo-med multi vitamins. I wish he went into more detail though =(

While I couldn't agree with skiploder more. Knowledge can be a various dangerous thing. Raw facts without a broader understanding can lead to some horrible things. That being said if someone is going to do an experiment I trust Brian who has worked with colubrids on a scale and for a time that not many can match. I would really love to see BHB doing more experiments with more rigorous scientific standards. Lets up the sample size. Track the snakes health as long as possible. Even if at the end of the day we all came away with the understanding that feeding larger meals to corn snakes results in faster growth it does not necessarily translate to other snakes. Regurge or other problems might pop up on another breed. Worse yet we might find that rapid growth effects long term health. Until we fully understand all of these facets its very hard to use this information. I certainly won't be changing my feeding plans anytime soon. I just fed a carpet and a sand boa last night. I am finding that the carpet can handle prey larger respective to the size of its body than my ball python and the sand boa can handle much less. They are literally and figuratively a different animal.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

Now this was done on colubrids but I was wondering if pythons and other snake species would work that same way.

What do you guys think?

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Very much works the same way.

If I'm trying to get a bit more growth out of a snake, I'll definitely feed items on the larger end less frequently.

If I'm trying to "slow grow" a species, I don't upsize food as much.

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Originally Posted by el8ch

Yeah, I saw that too Chris... I think the results speak for themselves and would translate similar to ball pythons. I have never fed with vitamins, but aside from that my feeding experience has yielded the same results. Bigger prey items per week resulted in increased wight gain. Standard meals controlled weight and allowed for a steady gain in weight. Smaller items twice a week has only been used here and there on problem feeders in my collection and only in that situation.

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Ok, so you had more issues on feeding normal sized prey twice a week then feeding larger prey once a week?