I Give Up On FT

I will never waste my time and money again. I have tried everything I have read about. I am just unlucky. None of my snakes young or old will go near the things.

I guess if my collection gets much bigger I'll have to try and breed my own feeders or luck out and find a local breeder who sells cheaper than the pet store.

You guys that feed FT are absolutely lucky 100%.

I know how you feel. :(

Its really easy and cheaper in the long run to breed your own rats:gj:
You might try to find a little mom and pop shop or reptile only shop, they tend to be cheaper.

Feeding the snakes is supposed to be fun! Don't you remember that from when you first started?

I decided a long time ago never to do f/t again. Feeding day immediately became fun again. Have never looked back since.

Btw there is nothing more satisfying then feeding off a top of the line perfectly healthy rodent that you bred. It really adds a whole nother dimension to the hobby.

Besides I am one of the ones that thinks feeding live is better for the snake then feeding f/t anyway.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Feeding the snakes is supposed to be fun! Don't you remember that from when you first started?

I decided a long time ago never to do f/t again. Feeding day immediately became fun again. Have never looked back since.

Btw there is nothing more satisfying then feeding off a top of the line perfectly healthy rodent that you bred. It really adds a whole nother dimension to the hobby.

Besides I am one of the ones that thinks feeding live is better for the snake then feeding f/t anyway.

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I completely agree. I've done a fair amount of research on animal nutrition (cats in particular), and while there are no studies that show whether freezing reduces the nutritional value of rodents, I feel that fresh prey is the healthiest option.

I definitely need to switch up my rat setup to save space/money, but I really enjoy breeding them. I go for fun colors/patterns and sell off the nice ones as pets to help pay for things.

And there is just an intrinsic satisfaction that comes from feeding your snake a rodent that you have raised.

In my opinion, in the attempt to GET my guys to eat F/T, I would waste money and prey items by thawing and offering and having them refused. I'd rather save my money, breed my own and be confident that the snakes are nice and full. :)

4 of my 5 take f/t. One of them thinks that it is of teh devil.

I don't know as it's luck but rather that snakes with a high feeding response will take f/t much more easily than those with low to average feeding responses. I doubt that it is a coincidence that the four snakes that take f/t are the four that are the greediest on live prey as well.

for now we are on f/t. I never in my life of wanting a snake ever imagined f/t didn't even no existed until about a ayear ago. Do not think that breeding rodents for one snake is an option, and not liking the prices or option for live.

We have a retile shop that is somewhat affordable, both live and f/t. But, one I hate to give them my business, and two their animals are often sick and look like crap. I went up their when I first got Igboo, while the staff is great, the owners practises suck.

My other options are petco and petsmart. I am using petco f/t right now, but will be switching to Bigcheese soon since they are only about an hour away and I can get bulk rodents.

That being, I find dealing with dead rodents to be absurd and gross. I know others have issue's with live, but nope not me, the dead frozen stuff just wigs me out.

I guess I got lucky, my one BP male does not care what I put in his tub. He actually snatches the dead ones quicker. Granted I do wiggle the dead ones in his face. I hope my future additions are as eager. I have been spoiled by how he easy he is when it comes to pretty much everything.

All of mine take F/T without hesitation besides my het pied male, he gets the special treatment. When I move to San Diego in a little over a year I will start breeding my own rodents again and offer fresh pre-killed. The rodent breeder I currently get rodents from does an amazing job. All the rodents are packed and presented well. I have zero doubts in my mind that they are full of nutrition from the breeder’s husbandry techniques.

At the same time I can't wait to offer all of my snake’s rodents I've produced. It's a great feeling knowing the care and treatment of the rodents offered.

I have 9/10 that take f/t without issue. One female will only eat live hoppers apparently...just took her first one from me today. lol

Yeah, I don't get it either. I've had two ball pythons take f/t for me and each one was only once and they were VERY hungry. No other ball python has done that for us. We do start our corns out on f/t without any issues, though.

I stopped the FT ordeal long ago. Most breeders don't even deal with it. It really is faster, cheaper, and easier to breed your own when your have a sizable collection. Also much easier to start hatchlings on live rat pinks.

I however, do not feed live once my snakes graduate to rats that are just about weaned. I will not risk a bite or injury. Therefore all of my snakes now, except for one, (knock wood) take prekilled. That one is my ever picky blue eyed leucy "Sinatra".

I was feeding FT a couple years ago but I was wasting at least a few rats every feeding for the ones who just weren't hungry or didn't want FT. So I got rat racks and now life is much easier.

Also easier to feed proper sized rodents. Especially when trying to quickly grow babies or breeding females by giving small meals often. More variety of sizes to choose from when you breed your own. You also know what your rats are eating, wether they are healthy, etc..

I have tried f/t on all my snakes at least once and some take it most wont even look at them. I produce all my rodents and I find it is helpful to have a few that will take frozen or pre killed to keep my rodent population balanced. If I have a week where I get lots I freeze some for the weeks where my rats have smaller litters. If have frozen and over population I sell extras off works well

Sorry to hear brother. All of mine take thawed but i started breeding my own anyway to cut on cost. If u lived in mn id give ya some but ur in georgia.

Hi,

All mine that I keep or have bred eat F/T - it's a whole lot of hassle to start them off on occasion but I have never let one starve to death and they all gave in at the end.

Very, very few people in the UK feed live. Not because it is illegal ( despite the misinformation out there by PETA et al ) but because it is illegal to buy rodents under 6 weeks old from a pet store.

So it is breed your own or feed F/T. In my case the landlord wouldn't allow rodents in the flat so I don't really have a choice.

Live is a lot easier but F/T will eventually work. Though bear in mind I had one hatchling take almost a year before she started eating F/T on her own. :rolleyes:


dr del

I've been pretty lucky I guess. Everything I have eats f/t. I didn't even start hatchlings out on live as they all took f/t right away.
If you have a good sized collection and the time/space live is probably cheaper and faster, though.

Don't give up - I do know the struggle - I live 20 miles away from the nearest supplier of anything and I am certainly not gonna raise rodents for 6 snakes - they will give in - eventually - I have found the key is patience - as you are well aware I'm sure, they feed by "smell, if you will" and heat - thaw them in a sandwhich bag sealed - never touch them - then heat them undersink HOT - still sealed in bag and offer off tongs - in most every case - they will give in eventually

I buy f/t small rats (45-84grams) for .95 a piece and medium (idk the gram range off the top of my head) for 1.35 to me this is really cheap. I don't feed live because I had a mouse attack my corn snake but a 5 months ago, it was a nasty ordeal where I ended up having to break the mouses neck well trying to not get bit by the snake. In the end my snake had 6 bite marks on her, two of them have scarred, and she was so pissed she wouldn't even eat the mouse. It was disgusting seeing the mouse take chunks out of my snake because she didn't get a correct strike on the mouse, the whole thing made me feel sick.

Since that incident I swore to only feed f/t and have, I have never feed a bp live, and don't plan to. All of my snakes came to me as live feeders, and I have successfully switched them all and I've bought bps from hatchlings to 2 years old. I think the key is when you first get them to stick to your guns and only do f/t, also scent the room for every feeding. My philosophy with this is the snake is in a new environment, with new lighting, new heat spot, slightly different temps, new smells, new everything. Adjusting to a new way of eating is like them having to adjust to all the other new stuff. As long as they realize they can take it or leave it they will take the food. I've waited as long as a 4 months before the snake took a f/t.

How i get snakes OFF live to frozen has proven to work for me. With 45 snakes all will eat either live, Pre killed or frozen but 3.

I started them off with live till i knew they ate well, then moved to pre killed few meals. Then after pre killed feedings were good i moved to frozen and it never fails for me. Works great with hatchlings and have converted few Adult breeding females off live.

[QUOTE=eel588;1654753] When I move to San Diego in a little over a year I will start breeding my own rodents again and offer fresh pre-killed. [QUOTE]

Do whatever works for you... but do you mind if I ask why you would pre kill?

I'm in a tough spot myself.

My family is okay with my snakes, but not so okay with the thoughts of having live rats or a rat colony in my home. Also, it would be really hard for me to raise something just to watch it die or kill it myself - I'm an animal lover through and through, no matter what the animal.

BUT, I have a hatchling that's having a hard time feeding on F/T. She'll coil, but she hasn't had a strike yet. It's to the point where I'm considering giving her live, but I'm concerned that she'll stay on live...which leads to the problem of live rodents in my home.

I feel your pain...

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

All mine that I keep or have bred eat F/T - it's a whole lot of hassle to start them off on occasion but I have never let one starve to death and they all gave in at the end.

Very, very few people in the UK feed live. Not because it is illegal ( despite the misinformation out there by PETA et al ) but because it is illegal to buy rodents under 6 weeks old from a pet store.

So it is breed your own or feed F/T. In my case the landlord wouldn't allow rodents in the flat so I don't really have a choice.

Live is a lot easier but F/T will eventually work. Though bear in mind I had one hatchling take almost a year before she started eating F/T on her own. :rolleyes:


dr del

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Really? Do you have a link that I could use with that information? I get into plenty of debates concerning ft vs live with some snooty ft feeders (not saying they all are, just ran across many with the "if you feed live you're a snake abuser" mentality) and I'd like to those this at them.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Do whatever works for you... but do you mind if I ask why you would pre kill?

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Safer for the snake without the dangers of ft (improperly thawed/heated food, contaminated with bacteria, etc) or live (getting bit or clawed). Plus you can get a stronger feeding response, depending on how you kill it.

I wish I could have one of those rat racks in my apartment. And OMG rats smell so bad. Prefereably I would like find a local breeder at this point. I have had one guy tell me he breeds for his own for his snakes and occassionally have an overstock and he'd let me know.

It's unfortunate there aren't any Mom and Pop stores here anymore. We have 3 chain stores in town and only Petland sells feeders. There is a Mom and Pop one town over that sells them for less but right now the gas money to go to them negates the money saved.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

I have had one guy tell me he breeds for his own for his snakes and occassionally have an overstock and he'd let me know.

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That is the time to "sell" yourself and work something out. :gj:
He has the place to breed and the breeders, you just have to find a way to get him to increase production a little. Buy him a couple xl rats.........buy him feed..........help him clean........you get the idea;)

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

I wish I could have one of those rat racks in my apartment. And OMG rats smell so bad. Prefereably I would like find a local breeder at this point. I have had one guy tell me he breeds for his own for his snakes and occassionally have an overstock and he'd let me know.

It's unfortunate there aren't any Mom and Pop stores here anymore. We have 3 chain stores in town and only Petland sells feeders. There is a Mom and Pop one town over that sells them for less but right now the gas money to go to them negates the money saved.

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If you add vanilla extract to their water it helps change their odor to be a bit more pleasant, but yeah, they are smelly. My husband is fine with the snakes, but would love it if I got rid of my rats.

i feel really lucky too, my BP will eat anything I put in there. If I feed him f/t i have to heat it up with a blow dryer a bit warmer than im sure a live mouse is, atleast to the touch. he ate a babysitter and a trick or treater too but we dont talk about that around the house.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

I wish I could have one of those rat racks in my apartment. And OMG rats smell so bad.

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I breed rats in my apartment. Rats don't smell bad at all if you take care of them and clean them regularly. Mice on the other hand...I could not deal with the smell.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

I will never waste my time and money again. I have tried everything I have read about. I am just unlucky. None of my snakes young or old will go near the things.

I guess if my collection gets much bigger I'll have to try and breed my own feeders or luck out and find a local breeder who sells cheaper than the pet store.

You guys that feed FT are absolutely lucky 100%.

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I totally hear what you are saying. My male normal used to take f/t very readily and then one day he just decided to quit eating it. I have tried all of the tricks and tips and have even tried the not feeding him for a few weeks trick and nothing works.

I think Maru was holding out on eating f/t until I said "I give up!"..after that he took f/t with no issues, seems he just wanted to see me give in! :O ;)

Just kidding. But honestly f/t worked best when I stopped worrying so much about it. I'd try everything desperately to get maru to eat and it just freaked him out. Once I relaxed and just put the (temp gun checked) hot rat in front of him like it was no big deal, he struck like he hadn't eaten in a year!

But it did take us like, 3 years to get to that point. Not three years of constant trying, but still. Now he eats them like crazy and even sniffs around when I dethaw dead ones! Never thought I'd see that!

I hope you can find a local breeder, that would really help your situation! Good luck! Sometimes you can meet them and find out where they are at shows. We have a local breeder who is also willing to sell live or pre kill rodents for us/freeze them ahead of time who we met at the last expo. I hope you can find someone like that! I understand not being able to breed your own rats, it's not an option for us either!

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

You guys that feed FT are absolutely lucky 100%.

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I agree 100%! I cannot stand live rodents...Nasty, smelly little creatures. All of my snakes have always gobbled up f/t like they're bon bons. I honestly have never found it to be a hassle at all to get them to take frozen. But I do absolutely take it into consideration when getting a new one if they're on live or frozen. But even if they are live eaters, switching them over really isn't that difficult...Guess I am just lucky.

I've noticed more and more people advertising snakes as ASF eaters. I've pondered that if that becomes too big of a trend, it's gonna be harder and harder to find animals that are permitted to enter my collection. No spolied eaters allowed!...And it really limits the potential of the animal to be able to thrive in anyone's collection down the road.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

I wish I could have one of those rat racks in my apartment. And OMG rats smell so bad.

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That is why you should breed asf's :) There is still a smell, but NOTHING compared to rats or mice.

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Originally Posted by RyanT

I've noticed more and more people advertising snakes as ASF eaters. I've pondered that if that becomes too big of a trend, it's gonna be harder and harder to find animals that are permitted to enter my collection. No spolied eaters allowed!...And it really limits the potential of the animal to be able to thrive in anyone's collection down the road.

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Rubish.

I have yet to come across an established ASF eater that would switch to normal rats... I have yet to come across an established rat eater that would not switch to ASF's... With my collection and rescue, we are talking about hundreds and hundreds of ball pythons that I have had direct experience with.

The reasons the use of ASF's will continue to grow are:
1.) ASF are the perfect rodent for the hobby breeder to breed because of low odor and low breeding cost.
2.) ASF are the natural prey rodents for ball pythons in the wild.
3.) ASF are hands down, without any doubt the favorite food of ball pythons.
4.) ASF IMHO are nutritionally superior for the ball python. ****Disclaimer**** This is my hypothesis. Don't think an official study has been done on this to date. It seems pretty obvious to me that they have much less fat then normal rats or mice. I can tell you that in a rescue situation where the animal is sick or injured, feeding properly sized ASF's is the first step to getting them back on track... and have had outstanding results with a lot of animals. :)

You are correct mike. Asf are a great prey item for balls. The only problem is they are not as readily availible in alot of areas like rats. As far as frozen goes it may not be a hassle for those with a few animals to feed but when you have alot of animals it is a big hassle. This is why i feed live rats. I also breed my own rodents and i have a 12 by 24 foot shed to breed them in cause yes they smell but its not bad if you clean often. My rodent racks get cleaned every sunday and i dont over populate the tubs so its not bad at all. Asf by far have the least amount of odor. I dont breed asf cause i dont like the fact they chew more, they beat the crap out of eachother and it would take me too long to establish a big enough colony to support the amount of rodents i need every week. I just dont have enough experience with them. I can produce rats with my eyes closed so i stick to what i know

The only reason I really consider feeding FT is the money savings. ~.50 per rat is a lot better than $4. I really don't have a problem feeding live. It's just the expense that bothers me right now.

I do wonder though how many breeding pairs of rats it would take to feed 3 babies and 4 adults.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I have yet to come across an established ASF eater that would switch to normal rats...

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Is that what you actually meant, not "wouldn't switch to normal rats"? Cause if so, that's exactly the issue I see with them from my particular feeding policy standpoint. I have no personal experience with ASFs at all.

I feel your pain. I started breeding rodents because I had around 40 - 50 + balls that wouldn't take f/t. Well, breeding rodents got old quick, so I sold the balls and got boas instead. I sure don't have any issues with f/t now. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Rubish.

I have yet to come across an established ASF eater that would switch to normal rats... I have yet to come across an established rat eater that would not switch to ASF's... With my collection and rescue, we are talking about hundreds and hundreds of ball pythons that I have had direct experience with.

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I have.. I have a hand full of snakes that would only eat asf's from the time they hatched until I made some husbandry changes now they are rat machines. I had a Spider that has only eaten ASF's for the last 4 years switch to slamming rats, I have a Calico female that was sold to me as a juvi that would only eat ASF's has been slamming rats for months now, Mojo female and het peid female all were ASF only wouldn't even touch mice are now pounding rats, I have a 2004 Hypo male that was a mouser for the person before me only ate ASF's for me and now is railing rats ..

I can be done but it take time, timing and patients. I only have one snake I'm still working on getting to take rats.. We'll get there.. :D

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Originally Posted by RyanT

Is that what you actually meant, not "wouldn't switch to normal rats"? Cause if so, that's exactly the issue I see with them from my particular feeding policy standpoint. I have no personal experience with ASFs at all.

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Yeah, I avoid ASF eaters because it's so much easier to find standard norway rats. Having a BP on ASFs is kind of like having a BP on mice. It's just much more convenient to have one that takes regular rats. And from a business point of view, I wouldn't want to sell people BPs that only eat ASFs, especially if that person is a newbie that would have no clue where to get an ASF.

My only experience with ASFs was a few brief months in which I was breeding them. They were absolutely vicious little buggers, and I got horrible bites from them. Doesn't happen with my norway rats, so I won't be switching anytime soon, despite the odor difference. I've also found that norway rats are more convenient because you can feed them off at a younger age, so less waiting time, and generally less dangerous because they are younger.

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

Yeah, I avoid ASF eaters because it's so much easier to find standard norway rats. Having a BP on ASFs is kind of like having a BP on mice. It's just much more convenient to have one that takes regular rats. And from a business point of view, I wouldn't want to sell people BPs that only eat ASFs, especially if that person is a newbie that would have no clue where to get an ASF.

My only experience with ASFs was a few brief months in which I was breeding them. They were absolutely vicious little buggers, and I got horrible bites from them. Doesn't happen with my norway rats, so I won't be switching anytime soon, despite the odor difference. I've also found that norway rats are more convenient because you can feed them off at a younger age, so less waiting time, and generally less dangerous because they are younger.

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I'll bloster this by saying the only up side to ASF's vs Rats is the ASF's never get to big for a Ball python.. but that isn't a big enough up tick for me.. LOL

Is there really much of a nutritional difference between live and f/t? I feed my bp F/T but have been thinking of going to live if there is a benifit.

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

I do wonder though how many breeding pairs of rats it would take to feed 3 babies and 4 adults.

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I have 6 trios that are maintaining 21 snakes with some surplus.;)

Not to thread hijack or anything, but I am going out to buy tubs this weekend to set up a rodent breeding project for my increasing collection. I was planning on breeding ASFs but the comments in this thread have me rethinking this plan.

I found a local source for ASFs who will sell me a 1.4 ASF group for $14 which I thought would be a good group to start with. I was thinking ASF for a couple reasons.

1. My big(ish) normal female has always been a finicky and picky eater. She's 4 years old and just over 1200g. She was a mouser for a long while and would take 2 per feeding, but I've had SOME success in getting her to take rats. The problem is that she will only take what I would call X-Small rats, and sporadically at best. Anything bigger than that and she acts scared and doesn't eat. She now hasn't eaten in 28 days on X-Small rats and I don't want to go back to mice. I was hoping to breed her this year, but I'm starting to doubt it's going to happen... I'm thinking ASFs might be too tempting for her to refuse and I might have a shot this season...

2. The size factor. I have read how ASFs never get too big for a bp to eat. I've wasted SO much money on rats that I've bought small and after a refusal or two, they're too big for her to eat. With ASFs, I could just pull out the refused rat, drop it back in the bin and not have to worry about them outgrowing my snakes.

But, I now am questioning this again specifically because of the comments about not buying ASF eaters. I'm planning to start small scale breeding soon. I was hoping this year, but it might be pushed back to next. Is it really that hard to unload ASF eaters? I would never want to sell a baby to someone if it is going to be a problem for someone else...

Any thoughts or suggestions?

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Originally Posted by Inknsteel

. Is it really that hard to unload ASF eaters? I would never want to sell a baby to someone if it is going to be a problem for someone else...

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I breed ASFs for all of my breeders and will continue to do so for as long as I'm in this hobby. In addition to the very favorable size differences, Norway rats and mice are disgusting and I absolutely can't tolerate smelling that every day. A single live Norway rat was brought into my snake room on feeding day last week and easily overpowered the smell of 60+ ASFs. It's ridiculous.

That being said, a lot of people won't buy a snake that has ever touched an ASF. People who either breed or have other access to ASFs won't care. It's up to you what route to go, just be aware that if you do start the babies on ASFs it might take longer to unload them. Personally I chose to buy a bunch of F/T rat pinks/pups and will be starting all of my non-holdbacks on those.

With proper ventilation and care, normal rats don't smell that bad.

I have a rodent room with approximately 60 breeders and 200 or so pinks through smalls. It's about 7' x 10' and sealed off from the rest of the building. I have a 500 sq ft/min fan exhausting for 30 minutes each hour.

I clean once a week. I use pine pellets for adults and nursing moms and their litters once the pups' eyes are open, and pine shavings for younger litters. The pine pellets make a huge difference in the smell. When the exhaust is running when I enter the room, there's a very slight smell. If the exhaust is not running, the smell is stronger, but still not bad.

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Originally Posted by CapeFearConstrictors

With proper ventilation and care, normal rats don't smell that bad.

I have a rodent room with approximately 60 breeders and 200 or so pinks through smalls. It's about 7' x 10' and sealed off from the rest of the building. I have a 500 sq ft/min fan exhausting for 30 minutes each hour.

I clean once a week. I use pine pellets for adults and nursing moms and their litters once the pups' eyes are open, and pine shavings for younger litters. The pine pellets make a huge difference in the smell. When the exhaust is running when I enter the room, there's a very slight smell. If the exhaust is not running, the smell is stronger, but still not bad.

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I can appreciate that the pine helps with the smell, but pine (and cedar) bedding are toxic for rats. It causes respiratory issues. Good on you if you're having success with it, but I wouldn't generally recommend it.

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Originally Posted by Inknsteel

Not to thread hijack or anything, but I am going out to buy tubs this weekend to set up a rodent breeding project for my increasing collection. I was planning on breeding ASFs but the comments in this thread have me rethinking this plan.

I found a local source for ASFs who will sell me a 1.4 ASF group for $14 which I thought would be a good group to start with. I was thinking ASF for a couple reasons.

1. My big(ish) normal female has always been a finicky and picky eater. She's 4 years old and just over 1200g. She was a mouser for a long while and would take 2 per feeding, but I've had SOME success in getting her to take rats. The problem is that she will only take what I would call X-Small rats, and sporadically at best. Anything bigger than that and she acts scared and doesn't eat. She now hasn't eaten in 28 days on X-Small rats and I don't want to go back to mice. I was hoping to breed her this year, but I'm starting to doubt it's going to happen... I'm thinking ASFs might be too tempting for her to refuse and I might have a shot this season...

2. The size factor. I have read how ASFs never get too big for a bp to eat. I've wasted SO much money on rats that I've bought small and after a refusal or two, they're too big for her to eat. With ASFs, I could just pull out the refused rat, drop it back in the bin and not have to worry about them outgrowing my snakes.

But, I now am questioning this again specifically because of the comments about not buying ASF eaters. I'm planning to start small scale breeding soon. I was hoping this year, but it might be pushed back to next. Is it really that hard to unload ASF eaters? I would never want to sell a baby to someone if it is going to be a problem for someone else...

Any thoughts or suggestions?

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It's up to you, just remember if you start your snakes on ASFs you'll need to have access to a constant supply, whether you breed them yourself or buy them. If you decide you don't want to breed ASFs, can't afford it, or whatever, you'll be out of luck unless you can find a local breeder.

Pine in rodents dont cause Respiratory problems. Only the few that are allergic to pine it may cause Mycro flares. About 99% of rodent breeders use pine, as do i and my rats are healthy and strong 5+ years on pine.

guess I'm just lucky ??

Out of my 6 snakes, ALL eat frozen / thawed, and eat it very well !!!
None of them were on frozen / thawed when I got them. 5 were hatchlings and used to either live mice or rats. All took frozen / thawed immediately for the first (at my house) meal.

One is a 4 to 5 year old female that I got a couple of month ago. She ALWAYS ate live. She took frozen / thawed for her first feeding for me. Within 5 days of getting her. She is on xlg rats. She is the easiest, you juts lay the f/t rat into the cage, with its head into the hide, and in the morning its gone, LOL. Easy as pie.

The younger ones do strike and they strike hard, I have to make sure I'm quick when I open the tub, LOL.

Like I said, I must just be lucky.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Pine in rodents dont cause Respiratory problems. Only the few that are allergic to pine it may cause Mycro flares. About 99% of rodent breeders use pine, as do i and my rats are healthy and strong 5+ years on pine.

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Sorry, but all the evidence I have seen says otherwise. Can you provide scientific evidence that pine does not have harmful effects on the lungs and liver of rodents?

http://www.afrma.org/rminfo2a.htm

This is just one of many, many articles about it.

Now, I have no idea if a rodent with a compromised immune system or liver disease would affect the snake it was fed to. And I'm not trying to convince people to switch. If anything, I'd like to be convinced that pine isn't harmful, because I would love one more way to dampen the rat odor.

Having done some more research, I am seeing that kiln dried pine removes many of the harmful phenols. I am gonna look further into this. :) For those of you who use pine, is it kiln dried/heated?