My rack temps are driving me NUTS...please help!

Hi,

My rack is a 4 high 41 qrt herpenclosure rack. My temps are driving me nuts as I can't get them to where I want them. Not even close.

I taped the herpstat probe directly to the 3inch heat tape. I put 3 different digital thermometers in the tub for testing. Here were my results:

- ambient room temp was 72
- herpstat thermostat was set to 100
- digi thermometer taped directly to heat tape 94
- hot side 80
- cool side 76

What the heck is going on? Is there really a 14 degree difference from the temp probe taped on the heat tape and the temp probe taped to the bottom of the tub on the hot side. What is that 1inch of space??

How high can i crank the thermostat up to make up for this? How hot can i let the heat tape get to? I seems I would have to crank my thermostat up another 12 degrees (112) to get it to the 92 on the hot side.

Any help would be appreciated.

Nothing abnormal there there will always be a difference between the temp in the tub and the temp measurement taking directly from the heat tape.

What you need to do is play around with your t-stat until the temp measured in the tub preferably with a temp gun (as they give the most accurate reading) reach the desired temps.

Depending on the t-stat, tubs, substrate, heat source it can vary greatly.

Before committing yourself to craziness consider this: all thermometers and thermostats (unless you are spending mega dollars) have error margins. Check the package of your equipment. Cheap thermometers are likely to be out of calibration with no way to adjust them. If each piece of equipment is off by two degrees in opposite directions then you have a 4 degree error right there. Also, how cold is the room temp (outside the rack). This plays a course in how hard the heat tape has to work. Some say 3" is fine for a hot spot but I disagree. I only use a 3" strip for my 12 quart tubs and a double 3" strip for the bigger tubs. Also, I only use the 10w 3" tape because the 6 watt seems a bit weak in the winter. I see variation in my rack as do you. I set my herpstat to 97 F. The thermometer taped to the heat tape always reads 96.6 F +/- a tenth of a degree. I have two thermometers in each tub. My warmest hotspot is 94 F and my coolest 90 F the cool side varies with the room temps but I never let it go cooler than 75 F. When the cool side drops I drag out the space heater. I think you should first test your equipment. Tape all the thermometers to the heat tape. Note each thermometers error margin. Unless you have a faulty herpstat (unlikely) or probe your tape will be the temp you have set on your herpstat. Based on what I have seen, you loose from 4-7 degrees of heat from the tape to the bottom of the tub (more if ambient is cooler). Were me, I would add another strip of 3" 10w to each shelf but many will say this is unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by Ladybugzcrunch

Before committing yourself to craziness consider this: all thermometers and thermostats (unless you are spending mega dollars) have error margins. Check the package of your equipment. Cheap thermometers are likely to be out of calibration with no way to adjust them. If each piece of equipment is off by two degrees in opposite directions then you have a 4 degree error right there. Also, how cold is the room temp (outside the rack). This plays a course in how hard the heat tape has to work. Some say 3" is fine for a hot spot but I disagree. I only use a 3" strip for my 12 quart tubs and a double 3" strip for the bigger tubs. Also, I only use the 10w 3" tape because the 6 watt seems a bit weak in the winter. I see variation in my rack as do you. I set my herpstat to 97 F. The thermometer taped to the heat tape always reads 96.6 F +/- a tenth of a degree. I have two thermometers in each tub. My warmest hotspot is 94 F and my coolest 90 F the cool side varies with the room temps but I never let it go cooler than 75 F. When the cool side drops I drag out the space heater. I think you should first test your equipment. Tape all the thermometers to the heat tape. Note each thermometers error margin. Unless you have a faulty herpstat (unlikely) or probe your tape will be the temp you have set on your herpstat. Based on what I have seen, you loose from 4-7 degrees of heat from the tape to the bottom of the tub (more if ambient is cooler). Were me, I would add another strip of 3" 10w to each shelf but many will say this is unnecessary.

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I forgot to add that i have 2 strips of 3inch heat tape running side by side on the hot side. Both individually wired. My ambient room temp is 70-72.

My flexwatt is at 107 to get 89 :)

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Originally Posted by Simplex

My flexwatt is at 107 to get 89 :)

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So I'm not alone! Thanks. However, my new concern is that this is because my ambient room temp is low. If the ambient room temp raises and I have my thermostat set at 105 - 110, will the thermostat self regulate itself to "normal" temps and now my snakes are in the low 100's....damn hobbies.

There will allways be a gap between uth and tub. My room is heated to 78 and i still have a 17 degree gap in a tightly closed rack

Racks are not very efficient heating wise. Aside from the mentioned thermometer issues (I have 15 herpstat (probes and all of them are with in 0.3ºF or each other and yes my business owns a very good accurate thermometer and no I would not recommend buying one...) I would trust the herpstat probe but a simple check is to swap them and see if they are reading the same variation.

Racks really want ambient air temps to be quite warm typically 80ºF is what most use. There are strategies to over come this but it is complicated. I have done so because my snake room has seaweed bags in the walls and heating the room is not practice until I tear out the walls inside and out...

I run hot and cool side tape (4 inch and 17 inch) and a insulated rack with T-stats on both hot and cool as well as top set and bottom set. (4 probes) to keep things stable and correct. It is far easier to stabilize room temps and then set a mid point top to bottom.

Please someone explain to me why you are putting the probe directlly on heat sources? Is this so ya dont have to use a vacant tub? I just dont get it. Onall my racks i have the probe in a tub. I keep 90 hot side and 85 cool side. I just dont get why you would play a guessing game by putting it on the heat source. You want to detect temps where the animal is living. Now i do agree the most important thing is ambient room temps. My snake rooms stay at 80 to 83. About 12 years ago i was having issues that were due to dead spots in the old flexwatt. But i havent had problems in it recentlly. Different racks need higher ambient temps to be stable.depending on how they are set up. Believe it or not my melamine racks are more reliable then my visions or freedom breeders in the heat dept.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

Please someone explain to me why you are putting the probe directlly on heat sources? Is this so ya dont have to use a vacant tub? I just dont get it. Onall my racks i have the probe in a tub. I keep 90 hot side and 85 cool side. I just dont get why you would play a guessing game by putting it on the heat source. You want to detect temps where the animal is living. Now i do agree the most important thing is ambient room temps. My snake rooms stay at 80 to 83. About 12 years ago i was having issues that were due to dead spots in the old flexwatt. But i havent had problems in it recentlly. Different racks need higher ambient temps to be stable.depending on how they are set up. Believe it or not my melamine racks are more reliable then my visions or freedom breeders in the heat dept.

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For safety precautions. This way you know what the heat tapes temps are exactly. Putting the probe in a tub will only cause the heat tape to work harder and get hotter. If that probe were to move, the snakes are at risk of being burned.

I dont use Herpstat for my racks but Johnson. All are set at either 89,90,91 and i get those temps exactly in room temp 80-81. When the t-stat kicks on the heat tape does read 100f+ but inside never goes above the set temps.


On the herpstat check the settings on herpstat to be sure its working to its full potential.

That still doesnt make sence to me. If the heat tape gets hotter then it would show in the tub as well. Therefore when the tub temp goes past 90 the heat will shut off. The heat will never get hot enough to burn an animal. I have never had a catastrophic failure with heat tape in that situation. I could understand that scenario if you were using a rheostat but not a thermostat. Even if the probe was in the front of the tub and you had a failure the stat would shut off once the front reached 90. If it got to 90 in the front at worst you would have 100 in the back and thats still not hot enough to burn an animal. Now if your thermostat fails thats a different story but i still have never heard of a snake burning in any of these scenarios.

Because not every one uses back heat. With belly heat the probe either needs to be in the tub or on the tape its self. There is not many other options, if you suspend the probe from the top the bottom will exceed safe limits. No two set ups are the same. I thought about back heat but in my conditions with the short test I ran I could not get the temps past 83 with the flex watt plugged into the wall. I use interior mounted probes for static enclosures but a tubs in a rack there is simply too much opportunity for disaster. Probes must be firmly fixed where ever they are and in a moving tub has too much chance for failure. There are many ways to set up a rack the one that keeps correct temps 80º cool and 90º warm is correct. Back belly or overhead it makes no difference as long as the temps are right.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

That still doesnt make sence to me. If the heat tape gets hotter then it would show in the tub as well. Therefore when the tub temp goes past 90 the heat will shut off. The heat will never get hot enough to burn an animal. I have never had a catastrophic failure with heat tape in that situation. I could understand that scenario if you were using a rheostat but not a thermostat. Even if the probe was in the front of the tub and you had a failure the stat would shut off once the front reached 90. If it got to 90 in the front at worst you would have 100 in the back and thats still not hot enough to burn an animal. Now if your thermostat fails thats a different story but i still have never heard of a snake burning in any of these scenarios.

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Famous last words!

I used to put them in the tub... But then switched back to on the tape. For a few reasons
1. Do u put the probe on the substrate or under it?
2. What if the snake moves it from ur location and it fails.
3. Mine r water spillers so what if the probe shorts out.
4. How do u attach it securly.. Tape naw not good... Glue.. PIA..
5. What about tub cleaning. Now i have a probe attached to the tub.
6. What if i need to have that tub open?? Will be cooling and the herpstat will be trying to compensate and. Heating up the other tubs.


Basically ive determined through trial and error that my tubs sap ~ 16 degrees.. My flexwatt is at 106ish and my tubs are 91 ish.
Its just substantially easier imo to have it on the tape.. (mines cut into the shelf below the tape) but frankly its whatever works.

My best friend in the bp world has his in a dead tub.. And it works for him and hes a much larger scale then me...

Maybe i should clarify. I thought i explained it but maybe not. I use a dummy tub. One tub in every rack is used for the sensor. My melamine racks have back heat. My freedom breeders and vision racks do not. I have the probe suspended midway over the hot side. I have done it this way for years and never had a problem. I dont use substrate. I either use paper or pre cut liners in all the tubs. Now i understand for those that need every spot for an animal this could be difficult. If thats the case and you have a melamine rack you can use a router and route a channel in the roof of the top slot place the probe in and fill it with silicone so it stays in place and the channel is protected from moisture. For me i want to know that my thermostats are picking up the temps that the animals are feeling without worry of flucuation. Flexwatt can have deadspots in it. Ive seen it happen. What happens if your probe is on a section that has a dead spot occure? Your tubs will be out of whack. I am very anal about heating in my racks to the point every single rack has johnson controls thermostats with helix backups. I know that seems like overkill to some or too much money in electronics for one rack but im not trying to loose any animal regardless of value.

Simplex,
snakelab's method is this... It likely will work if that is the method you have chosen. The failure is the that not every one has or should have the same set up. I don't I use belly heat as it is more efficient and keeps my power bill down.


His is a single solution among the other possibilities that I have pointed out in other posts. The problem is that other methods and practices he chooses not to recognize. Just like his suggestion that someone looking for their first snake should buy a rack. and contradicting himself (herself) by agreeing that the racks really want higher ambient temps which in the original post the op was trying to avoid. I have no time for people whom cannot or will not believe that there could be other solutions to a given problem.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...-the-cold-side

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Originally Posted by snake lab

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http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/...1/IMAG0068.jpg

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by snake lab

I am very anal about heating in my racks to the point every single rack has johnson controls thermostats with helix backups. I know that seems like overkill to some or too much money in electronics for one rack but im not trying to loose any animal regardless of value.

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You do realize a proportional unit cannot work as a back up right?

Im not backing it up as a failsafe. Im using it as a secondary in case one fails. Sorry i should have been clearer.

Just read my reply and realized i need to be even clearer. I use johnson controls prewired with strip and night drop. I back that up with the helix but the helix isnt hooked up to heat. Its meerly there to give me a secondary temp sensor. Hope that clears it up

snake lab interesting logic there I'd be curious about the steps that lead to that decision. Here is not really the place to do so. It is enough of a hyjack already.