Are we the last of the old timers?

I just wonder... Are WE the BP morph generation? Will all following generations take what we have accomplished for granted?

Well as u can see by my profile I started in 2007. A lot has changed since then. The stuff I could only dream about then is affordable now... But the stuff I dream of now isn't affordable!!!!

I wonder... Will that be true again 5 years from now, or is this the end of the beginning?

Your thoughts?

IMO some do, I only been breeding Ball Pythons since 2005 but started in 1996 with colubrids.

Ive noticed a lot let us do the work, let market drop then they jump in over produce it and so on. I understand not everyone has $1000+ to drop on snakes, but have to respect our work to produce it. Its not just putting snakes together and we get babies.


I feel a 20+pg thread here

Ya'll are not the last...........but a wealth of knowledge for my new begining. Your input has influenced myself as well as many others that want to mix and match to make what we want.
For that i thank you:bow:

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

Ya'll are not the last...........but a wealth of knowledge for my new begining. Your input has influenced myself as well as many others that want to mix and match to make what we want.
For that i thank you:bow:

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The funny thing is I HATE reading, during school and college i would only read cliff notes to get general idea on discussions.

When it come to snakes, my passion i read everything and ANYTHING i can get my hands on.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I just wonder... Are WE the BP morph generation? Will all following generations take what we have accomplished for granted?

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I think that is a bit presumptuous. I don't see anyone (now or in the future) taking long-time breeders for granted. To what extent ball python morphology will continue to progress no one can say but I disagree that "your generation's" contributions will by any means be the be-all and end-all of genetic engineering in reptiles.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

The funny thing is I HATE reading, during school and college i would only read cliff notes to get general idea on discussions.

When it come to snakes, my passion i read everything and ANYTHING i can get my hands on.

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Ditto.. Hated reading on school. I work a job where i always have a chance to sit and do basically nothing.. Lucky me ;) and my iphone goes non stop.. Either here.. A local forum.. My site... Kijiji or kingsnake... Always seems like there is something to learn or read about..

The oldet generation of expierenced breeders will never be taken for granted.. At least by me.. This hobby/addiction is a life long intrest for me now. And i have the breeders before me to thank for that!!! :)

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Originally Posted by Crazy4Herps

I think that is a bit presumptuous. I don't see anyone (now or in the future) taking long-time breeders for granted. To what extent ball python morphology will continue to progress no one can say but I disagree that "your generation's" contributions will by any means be the be-all and end-all of genetic engineering in reptiles.

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Agreed. The amount of combos that can be produced with at least 60 identified base morphs are endless. We'll never see all the possible combinations in our lifetime.

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Originally Posted by Crazy4Herps

To what extent ball python morphology will continue to progress no one can say but I disagree that "your generation's" contributions will by any means be the be-all and end-all of genetic engineering in reptiles.

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Ha ha.. Generic engineering? Isn't that the same as the whole mad scientist thing?

We aren't using science to create anything new. We aren't altering anything. All we are doing is using the ingredients that nature has given us to make different recipes.

I think we still have a few more recipes to discover that will change things a bit... But I think that from there all we can do is tweak the recipes that everyone already knows for subtle differences.

It seems vain to think this way.

Without "our generation" people would still discover everything we know about ball pythons today, it would just happen at a later time. It's neat that we were able to be around while it was happening, but it would still have happened without us.

Also, people have been interacting with and keeping ball pythons for much longer than this. There are many "big names" in the business who tell stories about when they first spoke with a breeder, who was around long before them.

I personally can't take credit for discovering a new morph, maybe people who have proven a new morph feel differently. I imagine it's very exciting to be the first person to see a genetic combination that's new.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I just wonder... Are WE the BP morph generation? Will all following generations take what we have accomplished for granted?

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Yes. That is the general pattern of life. We already take for granted revolutionary things like hand-held electronic calculators, DVDs, the Internet, and the birth control pill.

The ones who truly love the snakes, will carry on the tradition and will respect what the ones before them have done. I started with Ball Pythons back in 2000, collected and bred small time from that point up until 2006, sold off all I had to enlist in the Marine Corps. Check out some prices from 04, this shows how far the founders of the trade have come and the amazing progress they made to make amazing animals affordable to everyone.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=51417
Spiders

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=62261
Pied

I remember back then dreaming of getting a Spider or a Pied, even an Albino was around 2500-3000. I could barely afford Pastels back then. Normals and Pastels is all I had then.

Just for clarity, I am not considering myself as an old timer or founder.

I have massive respect for all those that are in this hobby for the love of the animals. My main fascination is how varied bp genes actually are. I respect the overall group of longtime breeders that have dedicated their time, lives, and passion for this hobby that I love so much. I only hope one day I will have accomplished so much in this community. I think many respect the hobby, and with that comes the willingness to be patient, learn, love and be disappointed at times. Those that don't show their true colors quickly and most of the time don't last very long.
Again, I thank and look up to all you long time breeders. With only 4 years breeding I still look to all the big guys for knowledge. Every year I am astonished at the amazing things that are being done with this species.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

As long as there is the hobby and the economic market with ball pythons it will get stronger and stronger. I dont think weve seen anything yet. I can remember a time where the albino was god. And then the pied. Then the spider went nuts. The spiders were 20 grand now look at em. As we see top dollar animals now the.market will crash on em just like its done before therefore driving breeders and hobbyists to quest the new bigger badder animal. The.economic aspect has created the ball python industry and its actualky fascinating if you look.at how far its come in just 10 years. Therefore i think in another 10 its gonna be insane. I do however believe in the mad scientist thing. Nature didnt produce the champagne or any of the other designer morphs it was breeders that manipulated the different genetics to create these morphs. Nature gave us the building blocks but breeding by man has created them. Which actually is pretty amazing considering alot of us started doing this without any degrees in the field of genetics. Thats the coolest part. I met a kid who came up to the table at the show today and was talking snakes. He showed intrest in a champagne female. Like a jerk i said you do realize how much they are dont you? He said yea i didnt want to buy it i was gonna see if you wanted to buy 2 that i hatched. Lol i was like what. Heres a 15 year old kid doin big things in the breeding game with a huge collection of cool animals.that made me appreciate the fact that the industry will grow and grow.

Im a student starting ball python morph experiments.

im starting out with basics and graduating as the years go bye, ive only seen the tip of the glacier of what people have done before but im taking what they have done and applying the most appropriate information toward new breeds.


ive already come up with a few combos im almost positive will result in something cool. and a few that may or may not be disastrous :)


If you ask me, its not the end of the beginning. probably somewhere towards the middle

I don't think it's even in the middle. I think we have only started. Their is so much to be done and that can be done. And your not creating new breeds, only new moprhs of the breed. New morphs are popping up every year, thanks to the ones who have a good eye for small stuff going on in the patterns.

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Originally Posted by MidSouthMorphs

Just for clarity, I am not considering myself as an old timer or founder.

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By the way NEITHER AM I!!! LOL, i haven't founded anything!

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

The funny thing is I HATE reading, during school and college i would only read cliff notes to get general idea on discussions.

When it come to snakes, my passion i read everything and ANYTHING i can get my hands on.

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Same here.......... I have never felt so driven with any other thing I have done or tried in my life.

you know it scarey to think about how much that changed since I started with snakes in general back in 1995. I amit whenI got into snakes there was nothing really out there to learn from outside the 10 dollar books at the pet store. I never got interenet access ( dial up ) until like 2004 and then i only used it to find cartoons and such. I didn't even find forums and such until I got high speed internet back in like 2006 or so. I remember time wishing I afford a simple normals, (I got my first ball pythons as rescues ) I then spent I bet 3 weeks in the libary at school looking up info and such. So I am now 34 and I have 23 snakes and only just started breeding and I learned a lot in those years. I still don't know it all and I never will.

As a beginner in this, I would like to say that the information that can be gained from the "old timers" can not be labled with a price tag. It is invalueable. I attempted to breed my ball pythons for the first time with no luck, however, when I needed help or emotional support there was always somebody out there with more experience that help get me calmed back down. I am in agreeance that the possiblities are endless. We now have 3 and 4 gene animals that look awsome. What's gonna happen when we start getting 6 or 7 gene animals. Anyway, many thanks to those who opened the door on this quest for the perfect ball python.

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Originally Posted by meowmeowkazoo

2.6 Rats "Cheeto, Oscar, Bailey, Tinkerbelle, Peach, Cow Level, Chi, Biscuit"

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There is no cow level, sorry, had to do it.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I wonder... Will that be true again 5 years from now, or is this the end of the beginning?

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*based off of asking prices on fauna*

Sept 2009: killer bees $2k

Now: killer bees <$1k

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Now: killer clowns $15k

Later?: killer clowns $?


Fill in the ?s. As long as price is driven most by what is new and how 'available' it is, then yes, prices will always drop as people continue to breed. Because this hobby is entirely built around selling reproduce-able genetics to those who are going to breed, supply of any given identifiable and desired characteristic will increase.

Luckily there are so many base morphs in ball pythons, that the combinations are endless. It's going to take decades and tons of work to make that 25 trait animal.

Don't get discouraged however. In the coming decade, we're going to see individual ball pythons' perceived value be more determined by OVERALL look than any particular identifiable genetic characteristics. That high quality super reduced pattern killer clown may very well be valued more than the low quality lesser-killer clown with a less-desired busy pattern.

It's not about how the offspring you produce today *would* be valued if they were produced 5 years from now. It's about how the offspring you produce today will help you produce EVEN MORE AWESOME offspring tomorrow.

I was thinking about this just the other day. I hope it is something we can all keep doing for the rest of our lives if we wish to! I do worry that there won't be enough buyers to keep up with what we are producing. I just hope we keep recruiting new snake owners to keep the hobby running strong!

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Originally Posted by SlitherinSisters

I do worry that there won't be enough buyers to keep up with what we are producing.

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itts a good thing the human race reproduces faster:rofl::rofl::rofl:

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

It's not about how the offspring you produce today *would* be valued if they were produced 5 years from now. It's about how the offspring you produce today will help you produce EVEN MORE AWESOME offspring tomorrow.

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I totally agree with this! This is why I just did a bunch of trades completely rebuilding my breeding collection. Now instead of having 70 + animals that will produce normals, single and some double morphs I have only 20 animals that will produce NO normals and baby's with up to 6 morphs.

The days of doing well making lots of single morph babies are pretty much coming to an end. This has always been true but more so now then ever before... It is about quality, not quanity.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Ha ha.. Generic engineering? Isn't that the same as the whole mad scientist thing?

We aren't using science to create anything new. We aren't altering anything. All we are doing is using the ingredients that nature has given us to make different recipes.

I think we still have a few more recipes to discover that will change things a bit... But I think that from there all we can do is tweak the recipes that everyone already knows for subtle differences.

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That's genetic engineering for you. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Crazy4Herps

That's genetic engineering for you. :gj:

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No it isn't.

Perhaps a definition of genetic engineering will help:

Genetic engineering: The science of altering and cloning genes to produce a new trait in an organism or to make a biological substance, such as a protein or hormone. Genetic engineering mainly involves the creation of recombinant DNA, which is then inserted into the genetic material of a cell or virus.

We are only selective breeding naturally occurring traits. There is a BIG difference between what we do and genetic engineering.

I think this theory of genetic engineering and breeding natural re occurring traits is splitting hairs personally.

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Originally Posted by snake lab

I think this theory of genetic engineering and breeding natural re occurring traits is splitting hairs personally.

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If you understood how big of a difference there is between the two you would understand... But that's a subject for another thread.

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Originally Posted by MidSouthMorphs

The ones who truly love the snakes, will carry on the tradition and will respect what the ones before them have done. I started with Ball Pythons back in 2000, collected and bred small time from that point up until 2006, sold off all I had to enlist in the Marine Corps. Check out some prices from 04, this shows how far the founders of the trade have come and the amazing progress they made to make amazing animals affordable to everyone.

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=51417
Spiders

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...ad.php?t=62261
Pied

I remember back then dreaming of getting a Spider or a Pied, even an Albino was around 2500-3000. I could barely afford Pastels back then. Normals and Pastels is all I had then.

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I very much enjoyed reading the pied thread. It really made me laugh at how far BPs have come.

Genetic engineering does not necessitate cloning, it's simply the manipulation of DNA, which includes artificial selection (we have been genetically engineering dogs since the Neolithic Revolution, it's nothing new).

But you're right, this is not the place for that discussion... I'm sorry to have sidetracked your thread.



Well, at any rate, I think we all have lots to look forward to in terms of ball python morphs... the combinations really are endless.

Lol your growin on me cavanaugh. i am thinkin alot of debating in our future

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Originally Posted by corgigirl9

I very much enjoyed reading the pied thread. It really made me laugh at how far BPs have come.

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Exactly, I remember only dreaming of owning Spiders and now I could have as many as I want.

Yea no kidding. I spent 14 k from spiderballs.net in 2003 on one lol. I did make my money back the following year but man how things have changed.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

It's not about how the offspring you produce today *would* be valued if they were produced 5 years from now. It's about how the offspring you produce today will help you produce EVEN MORE AWESOME offspring tomorrow.

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Mainbutter, I don't think you could say this any better. I completely agree. I have had ball pythons since 2006, reptiles and amphibians since I could barely walk. I had to sell all mine when I joined the Air Force. I am now building up my future female breeders. I have never bred a reptile in my life, yet I have dedicated the majority of my life to reptiles. I remember marching to tech school every morning thinking about the best base morphs to acquire to produce the best combos later on.

The other day I saw a visual female piebald for $575 shipped! In 2007 I flew from Wisconsin to the Daytona Florida show, pieds were selling well at $2-3000. The lower the cost goes for base morphs the more combos will be produced. I am all for prices getting lower and morph combo possibilities getting larger. Without it new breeders wouldn't be able to get into breeding. In reality most of us are breeding to sell to other breeders. Why not have a larger market to sell to?

Yea, that is like the owner of MarkusJayne started with nothing but normal females and a Graziani line Pastel which he bought for 3500 a while ago of coarse.