Making sure everything is Legit

Hi everybody! I'm new to Ball Pythons and to this forum. Just yesterday I bought a Black Eyed Leucistic BP from pythonregius.com. I named her "Ghost". She is a beautiful snake! I just wanted some feedback on some things I was curious about. After dropping $1400 on her I want to make sure I'm doing everything right.

For starters, when she was delivered to me yesterday she was very cold when I took her out of the baggie she came in. The night she was shipped to me it got pretty cold, and no heat packets were packed with her. I instantly put her in the basking spot of her enclosure where she layed for a good half hour before moving. She explored a little bit, then found a nice high place in the tank to hang out. One thing I noticed is that she seems to be taking semi-deep breaths. She isn't wheezing or yawning indicating a respiratory infection. Just what seems to be deep panicked breaths to me. So I want to make sure that is not something I should worry about.

as for the past day she has been chilling in her cave with the heat pad, and hasnt moved much. I've noticed she seems to throw a hissy fit (literally) when I put my hand in the tank. She has struck at me a couple times so far. even when I'm observing her from outside the tank she strikes. But if I'm not mistaken it may be just because she is getting used to her new home. I'm trying to give her some space to acclimate

As for her setup, I've got her in a 40 breeder with a deep layers of coco husk mixed with eco earth soil. She has plenty of vines and plants. As for lighting I have a 75w red bulb. her heating seems to be where it needs to be, but I was worried about how deep of water I should have for her. What I did is I glued a peice of glass to modify the tank to have 1/4 of it have water in it. It has a waterfall filter and a fogger to keep up humidity and water quality. I was just wondering if 3 inches would be too deep for a ball python. Could I go deeper if I wanted? I just dont want her to drown.

Just let me know if any of this throws up red flags with you guys so that I can make the proper adjustments to her needs. Thanks!!

-Joe

That sounds cool, but that much water isn't really needed. A water bowl would be fine, and damp eco earth would keep the humidity pretty close to where it needs to be. And don't worry about the breathing, what you described is normal. mine do it everytime I open the tubs on my racks.

Oh, but overall. If your temp. and humidity is correct then your set and make sure you have a hide for her.

It's a pretty sweet setup, shes got a warm dry hiding spot and a cool damp hiding spot. the water section was just a way for me to utilize the extra space so she could go for a swim if she wanted too. Plus it just straight up looks cool! I might get a few feeder guppies to put in there if it doesnt sully the water. I think the waterfall filter should work well enough.
But should I b concerned about her arriving so cold when she was shipped to me?
She is being pretty active now that its dark. I saw her drinking from her little pond :)

A 40 gallon is pretty big for a hatchling. It might make her nervous and/or snappy. The water shouldn't be too deep, as hatchlings can drown. It also sounds like your setup might have humidity that's too high (the waterfall/fogger are probably unnecessary), what's it at currently? The heat lamp isn't necessary unless you have low ambient temperatures, although it will probably help keep the humidity from getting too high.

In a nutshell, make sure the ambient temperature is 80, that the hot spot stays at around 90, and that the humidity is 60% (give or take a bit). Make sure she has plenty of hides in such a big tank.

Congrats on getting such a beautiful morph. :)

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Originally Posted by Singularity28

It's a pretty sweet setup, shes got a warm dry hiding spot and a cool damp hiding spot. the water section was just a way for me to utilize the extra space so she could go for a swim if she wanted too. Plus it just straight up looks cool! I might get a few feeder guppies to put in there if it doesnt sully the water. I think the waterfall filter should work well enough.
But should I b concerned about her arriving so cold when she was shipped to me?
She is being pretty active now that its dark. I saw her drinking from her little pond :)

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I would love to see pictures; it sounds pretty amazing!

If she seems fine now, she probably will be, but it doesn't hurt to be vigilant about such things. It's a shame they didn't give her a heat pack. :(

Okay! I'll get some pics up tomorrow. Maybe even a youtube vid. I like showing her off.
But yeh, I only run the fogger for total of like an hour a day to jump the humidity if it falls below 50%
I have a Panther Chameleon and he has pretty high care needs as well, so Im sure I'll do fine.
Just wanna make sure the experts give me the thumbs up

Depending on temps heat packs arent usually required in summer. If lows dont drop below 60F heat packs arent required.

Remember its best the snake arrive cool than warm. Overheated snake has more problems than one that got cold for few hours.

Well actually The weather pulled a fast one and it got damn near freezing the night she was shipped.
When she got here she was inside of a box, inside of styrofoam, surrounded by newspaper in a inside of a little pouch. So i'm sure there was somewhats of some insulation. Plus she was overnight priority shipped.

She didnt feel frozen, but she was cold. Colder than a snake should be. But I think she is acting normal now

I am sure she is going to be fine with time sounds like you got everytihing set up correctly and you have a great addition to your house
Robie

I find that animals that ship cold like that arrive much more stressed. I still think it's legit---it's still summer, so the shipper wouldn't put heat packs in yet, because too hot is more dangerous than too cold.

But you should leave her completely alone for another couple days. I've had animals arrive in February from Florida (I'm in Arizona) that were still cold even with the heat packs, and they threw the kind of fit you're describing. A complete meltdown, actually---when the black pastel started twitching her tail at me, I thought maybe she was having a seizure. But a week later she was fine.

HOWEVER, the piebald that shipped with her was not perfectly fine. I took the pied to the vet three weeks later, and she was found not have a pretty bad case of intestinal flagellates. The vet said: sometimes stress from the cold allows an undetectable, low-level case of parasites to just take over. And flagellates are really common.

So leave your new black-eyed Lucy alone for a week? But keep an eye on her. If she's still hiding all of the time and never coming out and doesn't eat two weeks in a row, it's probably worth taking her to the vet for a fecal smear.

And congratulations!

Sounds amazing, would love to see pics. Guessing you have a screen lid and that is why you felt the need to have all of those moist things going on ...


One thing ... Do DON'T need a "damp" hide and "dry" hide. Make them both dry and identical, and just have humidity up in the enclosure. I'm not really sure what you want.

Also, I wouldn't put guppies in the "pond" because they will just excrete ammonia, and your snake won't wanna drink ammonia water or even nitrite/nitrate water if the filter is established. Yucky.

I have a shipment that will be going from Michigan to Texas that requires a heat pack. Temps here are 50-55 and going to texas where lows are 68. Very rare do heat packs become required in summer but it does happen.

Keep in mind our hands are avg temp of 88-92F and a snake that arrives 60-75 will feel COLD to our hands.

Whence I get her settled down I'll take a dropping sample and her into the vet for sure. Just to make sure everything looks good with her.
I'll try to avoid guppies, but maybe I'll go with a single cool freshwater animal to put in there like a Dinosaur Palmas. Its easy for me to do plenty of water changes since I work at my Local Pet store and I bring 20G of water back home with me on a daily basis for my 65g Reef aquarium.
As for pics Ill get some up ASAP I just need to borrow a better camera than what my cellphone can offer :D

No need to take her to vet or a stool sample unless shes sick. Arriving cold will NOT make her sick.


and whats with the Fish?

Just to make sure she is clear of parasites and there is nothing to worry about.

yeah, the fish might be bad Idea after a bit more research.. They could introduce parasites..
Would be pretty tight though!

Sometimes I just get ahead of myself

Any other animal in the enclosure is a bad idea. It would LOOK neat, but its a bad idea. Where are your pics?

Tomorrow. I promise!
Even if I havta resort to my 5mp camera on my phone I'll get some of her and her enclosure.

I'm def. going to get some high quality ones of her soon. It'd be sek-C to get one of her coiling around my assault rifle.
I'm even going to get custom made decals and patches of her. She's going to be like my own personal mascot! :rolleyes:

I love it. And I wanna see some low Q pics :D

Low Quality pics dont do her justice though.
She is the most beautiful animal I have ever seen!

I used to be turned off by snakes because Ive been nailed a few times by Red Tail Boas at my work. But then after selling a Black King snake to a customer, I sold myself on the snake as well. So I bought the Black King snake.

After watching some youtube vids of my snake I eventually ran into a Leucistic Ball python vid and fell in love.
I had to have one. Money was no object. Thanks to student loans!

Here is Ghost, and her Home
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqwV5...e_gdata_player

I like it , but hope u have those nasty mean lights off most of the time and heat underneath instead. Not sure on your heating details and if that is how you do it, but those lights look bright and more like lighting lights.

As for heat I use
Zilla Night Black Heat 100w (on always)
Zilla Heat Pad Small 8w (on always)
and those white lights are 2w uvb bulbs for lightduring the day (12 hours on/ 12 off)

Should I do something differently?

you don't need light. Ball pythons are nocturnal and remain in the dark during the day. natural lighting coming in from a window is plenty enough ... other than that I'm sure you're fine as long as your temps are in the right range :)

I have a feeling your temps are probably way off. A small under tank heater for such a large tank?

Nothing controlled by a thermostat? You also need a digital thermometer/hygrometer with probe to measure both hot and cool side temps at the same time as well as humidity.

The enclosure is beautiful but you need to be sure your stats are exact or you will end up with a sick snake. The water feature may be dangerous. BPs can be known to drown. They are not water snakes. Even when soaking it's advised to never put them in a tub with more then enough water to barely cover their body.

how do you change out your water? and x2 on the thermostat and in-out therm. mentioned above^^^

Yea Foschi, I don't like to assume, so I just put it out there, but I am a little worried.

I however did not know ball pythons were at risk for drowning. Good to know :gj:

Really beautiful enclosure. I would love looking at that thing all day. Just make sure your temps are well controlled, and monitor humidity.

Word of warning hon, someone who had one of those fogger things in their tank had their baby ball get stuck inside it, and it almost died. They went through a lot of time and trouble to cut the snake free, and it was badly scarred up. I would never have one of those in a snake tank unless the snake was over 5 feet long.

I know you love the way the water and all looks, but really it's not an ideal ball habitat. I know from experience that too much humidity combined with a short period of low temps can easily cause an RI. Maybe I'm just a worry wart, but I'd be afraid that would happen to her in that tank.

Gale

I respect all of your concerns.
I can tell you the water changes is something I will keep up on a weekly basis.
As for the depth of the water I will drain an additional inch so its only an inch and a half deep
Heat and humidity I can tell you is on par. I have electronic thermo and hydro meters. The sensors are hidden behind the plant and I keep the digital part that tells me the stats I need to know on the table next to the tank.
Heat is currently at 92 degrees near basking with humidity of aprox. 55%
General temp I know is above 80 degrees.
I'm going to take the heat mat back into work and exchange it with a larger one with more watts for a higher heat.
The UVB lights are just for personal viewing preferences.
As for the fogger, that POS already broke. so I'm going to replace it with a fogger that is kept outside of the enclosure and lets out fog through the tube. will only turn on for extremely limited periods throughout the day

Water that big with objects submersed needs to be cleaned and changed DAILY. As the snake will go into it.

You dont drink your bath water do you? Snakes have to if not changed daily

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Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

Yea Foschi, I don't like to assume, so I just put it out there, but I am a little worried.

I however did not know ball pythons were at risk for drowning. Good to know :gj:

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Well, I think it should be put out there more because it's such a small baby. I noticed in the video that there is quite a lip the BP would need to get it's head over to be able to get out of the water area if it decided to go for a swim.

If made to exert them selves, BPs can tire quickly. You wouldn't want that little one to not be able to get out of the water before it got tired. For example... I made a short video and posted it of a butter BP slithering on a micro fleece blanket. She couldn't actually get anywhere because it was so slippery. It was funny. In the first short vid she was moving very fast but then I took a second vid (both very short YouTube vids) and by the end of the second one, she was so tired she had pretty much stopped.

As a safeguard, I suggest reading through the excellent care sheet for BPs posted as a sticky in the husbandry section. It explains about needing a thermostat (plug the under tank heater into this then plug the thermostat into the wall) to set and control the heat.

Then if you run to Walmart, for only a few $$ in the hardware/tool section where the thermometers are, pick up an "Accurite weather station" it measures 2 temperatures and humidity. It has a probe on a cord. You place the entire unit in the tank on the cool side. Run the probe cord to the hot side. Place the probe under the bedding, directly on the glass, just above the under tank heater.

On the screen the "inside" temp reading is you cool side temp. The "outside" reading is your hot side/probe reading. Then the humidity.

Hot side should be 89/91 roughly and cool side/ambient air temp should be 79/81 roughly.

Humidity is best 55% and up but not more than 70%.

I've included a pic of one of my accurites that I've used with my incubator..

http://tapatalk.com/mu/a6898c95-d02a-51bd.jpg

That accurite looks pretty nifty. I think I will run and get one tomorrow.
As for the water I'll re-organize the rocks into a more gradual ramp like structure on top of draining a half of it so it is more shallow.

But when it comes to the water quality, In the care sheet from where I bought her it says to "replace the water atleast once a week or when it hase been sullied"
I would imagine my water would be cleaner than most other peoples due to the fact that there is more of it being fully circulated and filtered, rather than a water dish that holds stagnant water.

keep the feedback coming guys. I want it to be the perfect home for her. I am very persistent when it comes to my pets :D

Your theory sounds like it would work but in reality, it will not. The filter's purpose is to build a colony of beneficial bacteria much like in a fish tank, except I'm guessing it is not cycled, which means the water will just build up ammonia if the snake goes into it, and it would leach the oils off the snake making it harder for it to shed. But back on the ammonia thing, even if the filter was established, you'd still be getting nitrates and that is still waste. The filter in reality isn't helping much, other than adding oxygen to the water which is unneeded.

Honestly your set up is amazing, but not for a ball python.

Your water will stay clean until your snake goes in the water, and at that point it may no longer be clean. I would do away with the water completely, and just use a water dish. Like I said love it, but not for a ball python.

The quality care sheet is referencing to a water dish, not a "pond" of sorts that you have established. Something they won't be soaking in. Soaking is not needed for balls, and they will only do it in the case of low humidity or mites (they may go for a dip besides that, but it isn't needed).

Thanks for being such a good sport thus far by the way.

Here is the thing though... BPs are notorious for going to the bathroom in water. If they have a large enough bowl, they will sometimes use it like a toilet. Likewise, usually whenever someone gives their BP a soak due to a bad shed or mites, the water usually triggers a "movement".

BPs don't poop small. There is dog-like poop, solid white or yellow urates, and liquid urine. Imagine that in your water.

I havnt even seen her taking a dip yet. But I have caught her drinking it.

You obviously know the ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate cycle, and for that I give you props.
The thing about the filter is that it doesnt have a bio filter built in, and the bio is the stuff that houses the bacteria that breaks down the ammonia into nitrites and nitrates.
Instead it has a carbon filter. The Carbon is what absorbs all the bio molecules by binding to them chemicaly. So in that sense I would imagine it is improving the water quality.

Many of you are against the pond. And if it comes down to it I will tear it out.
However, I am determined to try to make it work if I can. I just want my snake to be happy and healthy.


Thanks to you guys for all the advice and patience
I am determined to do what is right for her.

I agree it's gorgeous but you are setting yourself up for problems. That tank is going to be incredibly hard to do complete disinfects with. All animals including reptiles have a plethora of bacteria and gut flora. Repeated exposure to even a small
Amount of it can create a "super bug" without regular disinfecting. Maybe it's just me but that tank looks like itll be a pain in the arse to take apart and bleach out. When one of them
Goes poop in their space they drag it all around, sit in it etc. Every time she goes you'll have to clean the water out, disinfect the rocks, and clean anywhere else poo may have gotten. There's alot of places in that cage bacteria can harbor, and grow. Seems like eventually you could have a scale rot issue, or other bacteria or fungal thing goin on. I would take safe, and clean over those possibilities. The first time you have to clean poop up out of there or disinfect the cage you're going to be frustrated.
It is smokin gorgeous though. It's just not the best set up for a ball.
Sorry... Just my .02c from my experiences. I learned the hard way with stuff like that. You mind as well save yourself the trouble.


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Give it a go if you want. We're just saying it's not exactly the proper environment for a BP. I think it will end up being more hassle than you think.

When you build a natural habitat for say, a sav monitor, you use a few feet of a natural soil mixture with leaf litter and other stuff to encourage natural breakdown and antibacterial properties. It also has all the natural bugs in it for just this purpose.

Dart frog vivs are best with something like ecoearth and a healthy colony of springtails. Which not only feed the frogs, but break down any waste. These types of enclosures are designed to be natural while eliminating the need to ever change the bedding. It's a natural eco system.

Picture this.. BPs in the wild live in termite mounds or stolen rodent burrows. Females rarely ever leave their burrow if food happens by often enough. Males have been known to explore more often but they are solitary until breeding season.

They often only get water from their food or puddles when it rains. They are found in rather hot and dry areas of Africa which is why they spend much of their time in these burrows. Even though they are from a more arid area, they do have a higher humidity requirement than most desert reptiles.

Their humidity requirements are unusual in that they require a decent amount, but unlike some species like bloods, they do not do well in beddings that are meant to stay somewhat damp. Like ecoearth, moistened shredded coco husk, excessive amounts of moss blanketing the floor, etc..

They are very prone to scale rot. If they are laying on a moist surface for an extended period, weeks only, they will get it. It starts with the skin simply looking almost dry. Even though you know it isn't. It progresses into redness, scaling, blisters, infection, etc.

High humidity in the ambient but not an overly humid surface.

So you see, a BP is a species where in the long run, it's nearly impossible to create a terrarium as natural as you want it. You can't add what needs to added to create a natural eco system in the bedding without endangering your snake. So there's no way to make it into something where you wouldn't have to change the bedding often. Meaning you'd have to change out and clean everything in that tank probably monthly. If you got lucky and your BP only went to the bathroom in one corner, you might be able to just spot clean that corner but remember, they do pee also.

Sorry for the long post. Just some food for thought. Like I said. Give it try. I just believe you'll change your mind before too long.

What I would suggest since you really like the water but obviously care about your snake's well being is instead of putting the water directly in there, use a clear plastic container and bury it into the rocks. You could use a clear tub of sorts, I would definitely recommend plastic over glass because it would be really heavy to lift out and change every day. However, I think it would look pretty nice and it would be good for your ball python too. You just have to change it a bit and maybe get more rocks. :)

Perhaps, if you have your heart set on the water feature, you could leave it in but make it so the snake can't get to it.

I know that would be kind of defeating your purpose for having it, but it would be better all around. With enough effort on your part, you could conceivably make a barrier of some sort. Perhaps out of that wonderful plastic mesh used for cross stitch. I used to divide fish tanks with it, so water could pass through but not the fish. In your case, you'd want humidity to pass through but not your snake. You could use the green mesh, and hide it with a small fake vine or two. The only difficulty would be attaching it to the tank. I used simple plastic binder spines, which I silicone in place and just snap the mesh into. In your case, you would certainly have to find a way to make the mesh support the weight of your snake should she make an effort to climb it.

Just some ideas to toy with. It really IS a lovely setup, just not so ideal for your ball.

Gale

Or light diffuser. I will use that in my sump for my big tank.

I dunno, if you wanna make more work for yourself, be my guest lol. Have fun when she poos in it the first time :)

So I went out and got the Accurite device you told me about. So the prong I put under the bedding above the heat pad? or in the basking spot? and as long as its 90+ degrees then that is good?

The device itself measures the other temp and the humidity. is this right?

Im going to be getting a new fogger, and a bigger heat pad on wednesday.
Also I will be rigging up the water portion to make it more manageable and less of a potential threat to my snake.

In addition I will be getting a rock bowl to hold water that I can change out easily too. So she will have more than one water source.

Sound good????

88-90F is all you need

Yes. The probe should read around 90 give or take a couple degrees where the snake lays on the hot side. The other temp the unit reads is the ambient temp. The humidity is the bottom reading.

This hot side temp is important for proper digestion. The ambient temp and humidity are important to have spot-on to prevent sickness like respiratory infections which can happen rather quickly if it's not just right.

The snake will naturally thermoregulate itself by moving from one side to the other as it needs. It's also important to have small, identical hides on each side for this purpose so the snake does not have to chose security over the proper temp it needs.

Which heat mat do you guys recomend?
Im looking at the Large Zilla Heat mat 24watt 8x18 inch.
In addition I am now running a 75W red Heat bulb

Dont forget, that if the surface of the bedding is 90, Can bet the glass is pushing 97F+. Be sure to even it out so the glass is never over 94F and your fine.