Are these possible het pied markers?

Hey guys, sorry to bother you with another, "Is This A Morph?" post, but I'm insanely curious.
So, very soon, I'll be coming into possession of a 3 1/2 - 4 foot female who the owner believes may be het pied. She says that the breeder who she got the snake from never said anything about the parents/possible genes, but the snake has what she believes to be markers on her tail. Are these markers, or is the only way to tell for sure done by breeding and seeing what she throws?

http://i.imgur.com/G9NxJl.jpg

Her tail markers:
http://i.imgur.com/u1gfGl.jpg

Other side:
http://i.imgur.com/FX5ral.jpg

This is a comparison of her normal (right) and her possibly het pied (left):
http://i.imgur.com/cFUbal.jpg

So what do you guys think? Her owner wants $80 for her, do you think she's worth it?

markers don't tell you that much. Some hets have it and some dont. You should ask the person for papers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maddumpling

You should ask the person for papers.

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I'll ask, hopefully she'll have something to help confirm this.

They look like het pied markers, for sure. However, I'd be willing to bet that this person knows it's normal and just happened to notice the belly looks het-pied-ish and thought they could get away with selling it for more. The fact that she's saying the guy she got it from didn't say anything about parentage makes me suspicious that she's just gonna play dumb when you find out it isn't het pied after all. If a breeder was aware that pied genes had anything at all to do with the clutch and saw the train-track-marks, there's no way they would just accidentally fail to mention it and sell it to somebody for normal price. If you want to gamble, go ahead, but be aware that you might be paying 80 bucks for a normal snake.

There are a ton of normals with "het pied" markers. The only way to tell is to breed them out. I wouldn't buy a pair without the breeder providing papers of such.

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Originally Posted by Ash

They look like het pied markers, for sure. However, I'd be willing to bet that this person knows it's normal and just happened to notice the belly looks het-pied-ish and thought they could get away with selling it for more. The fact that she's saying the guy she got it from didn't say anything about parentage makes me suspicious that she's just gonna play dumb when you find out it isn't het pied after all. If a breeder was aware that pied genes had anything at all to do with the clutch and saw the train-track-marks, there's no way they would just accidentally fail to mention it and sell it to somebody for normal price. If you want to gamble, go ahead, but be aware that you might be paying 80 bucks for a normal snake.

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I was reading back over my emails between the owner and I, and she said, "...Also has a het pied marker on her belly down by her tail but I have no idea about her history and from what she was produced by. If you are interested in her as well I can send some pics."

Perhaps I could take the snake, breed it, and if all I get are normals, maybe I could talk her into giving me a refund. I sent her another email asking her for some papers, because she said she orders snakes from time to time. I have my fingers crossed that maybe she ordered this one too, and has something to help prove if it is het-pied. But she said she didn't know who the parents were, so I'm beginning to think this was a pet-store buy.
If she's not het-pied, and I can't get a refund, I could always sell the hatchlings and then sell her.

If the breeder said "she didn't know who the parents were" then they are not het pied. This is a scam. Back away, back away fast!

Yeah, they're markers, but the belly isn't clean between them. Plus what everybody else said about unreliability.

It's a female? Looks healthy and size-able. If you can get the sex confirmed, $80 is a fine price. If it's a boy, I wouldn't pay more than $50.

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Originally Posted by loonunit

Yeah, they're markers, but the belly isn't clean between them. Plus what everybody else said about unreliability.

It's a female? Looks healthy and size-able. If you can get the sex confirmed, $80 is a fine price. If it's a boy, I wouldn't pay more than $50.

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Yeah, she's a female. I'll double check, though.
Even though she may not be truly het pied, that's okay. To me, snakes are beautiful regardless of their genes (not to say I don't love me some morphs!). I'm just happy to be surrounded by them. And besides, she's almost up to breeding size, which is another plus. My girl that I have now still has a few years to go, and honestly, I can't wait to breed. :D

Honestly, I don't mind paying $80 for a big healthy normal girl like that. And yeah, they're beautiful---I took a het male to a party on Friday, and he got mucho compliments on his looks. Nobody there knew what a piebald was or that he might be het. They just thought he was a gorgeous animal.

The truth is, normals that aren't het pied hatch with those markings all the time. It is not a fool proof method of telling if a snake is het pied. I've hatched normals with those rail road tracks that run the entire length of the belly from head to tail on both sides that I knew were not het pied.

There technically is no such thing as het markers for any recessive gene. There are however, certain traits that a very few recessive gene hets can show such as the railroad markers on some het pieds.

There are many 100% het pieds from well known reputable breeders that do not have these markings at all. The railroad markings are not always present on het pieds and they do not always mean that a ball python is het pied if the genetics are unknown..

So, if the snake was not sold as a het pied, and it's genetics are not known, until it is bred to a visual pied or a known 100% het pied and actually produces visual pieds, it is only a normal.

as mentioned, many normals have the het pied marker, mine included. it's not a reliable way to distinguish hets, otherwise there would be no discussion about it. additionally, if the sole reason you're considering buying it is to breed pieds or more possible hets, please reconsider. unless you have a visual piebald at home or are planning to pick one up, there's no way to tell within the first generation whether your female proves. it's unfair and not terribly responsible to expect to turn a profit on a craigslist animal, only to dump her in a year if she doesn't prove. and as for making any profit off normal offspring, I think you'll find that to be nearly impossible after the expense of breeding and incubation.

my only advice here is that if you're interested in pieds, save up $800-$1200 and get the one you want from a breeder.

best of luck.

If it is being priced as a normal (or very close)...I think it would be a fun dinker project. Especially since she sounds like she's at breeding size or pretty close. As said though...Unless she was sold as a het pied...It's only a normal.

Personally, i would see if they take 60-70 for her just because they really have NO reason to think she's a het. If it turns out to be a boy, then I wouldn't pay more than $50. If she doesn't know it's bloodline, can you garuntee that it's even a girl? Not everyone knows ho to probe or pop a snake..

Not a bad price for a good-sized normal girl. It doesn't sound like the owner is trying to pull any sort of scam. She does have markers, and the price isn't a het pied price, it's a normal price.

Pair her up with a het pied or pied male, and see what comes out.

If she IS het pied, most likely she came from a poss het pied clutch, and was sold as a normal. Many breeders don't bother labeling poss hets, because it's rare to get more for them than the price of a normal.

I just produced my first clutch of poss hets, and I'm eyeballing markers like crazy trying to figure out what to keep, lol.

I don't put much faith in het pied markers. I have a 100% het pied female from a reputable breeder and her markers are there but very weak. An aquaintance had a het pied that proved out with zero markers. I've also seen plenty of "het pied" markers on snakes that did not come from pied stock. I've seen them on WC babies.

The price is OK for a big normal female if that is what she is. If you have a pied and you want to try her, at least you'll end up with some known het pieds if she doesn't prove out.