Ball pythons destroying the hobby?

Personally i think BP's do a little help and a little bad. the wide variety of morphs and ease of care brings in new herpers but seen as there so popular amny more rare species fall out of captivity.

I don't understand what you mean?

I dont think there destroying the hobby there will always be people that love them and people that dont really care for them. I do hate going to shows were you basically have the same thing on every single table though.

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Originally Posted by Denial

I dont think there destroying the hobby there will always be people that love them and people that dont really care for them. I do hate going to shows were you basically have the same thing on every single table though.

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Not sure what you mean with that one. The last one I went to had: BPs, corns, bloods, RTBs, retics, bearded dragons, geckos, emperor scorpions, tarantulas, preying mantises, frogs, turtles, and probably a lot more than I forgot. There was maybe three or four out of about 30 tables that were purely BPs.

I believe Ball Pythons are a great "gateway" snake. Great for converting people who have a fear of snakes due to ignorance (as I once had). I mean if you've never interacted with a snake you are much more likely to have a blind irrational fear of them.

Anyway my point is once people start learning about and keeping Ball Pythons and find out snakes are not "bad" as the media portrays them they are much more likely to explore the hobby and end up learning about and keeping other species as they become more experienced.

In conclusion I believe BP's help the hobby, but that's just my humble opinion.

Destroying Hobby No... make it less diverse Yes... with all endless color mutations pop up every year and go up Morph Crazie.. a lot of people concentrate on ball pythons...

And typical way is...
1 I want Snake... I'm Buying Ball Python...
2 Ohh That one is cool and this and this and this... (people catching Pokemon syndrome) with leading to point 3
3 Hmm I have few cool snakes let breed them to make some money back.. and after 3-4 years another small table with Ball pythons only pop up on show...

Don't get me wrong.. I dont see anything wrong with that but more and more people concentrating only on ball pythons push other species in deep Shadow...

When You have seen last time on small show ( i dont talk about big ones like Daytona or NARBC) European or Asian Rat Snakes??? When You have seen last time Central American or Cuban Boas??? (from Tropidophiinae family) When You have seen last time Elephant Trunk Snakes, African Racers, Or even Cribos??

On last White Plains Show I bough House Snake for 15$ !!!
Same House Snake I could order from same Breeder over internet for 40$...
They Just want to get a rid of him because people are not interested in other things..
Everybody wants ball pythons, want more morphs of ball pythons and wants them cheaper...
Is like Perpetum Mobile..

I just wonder when This machine reach critical mass...

So yes in My Opinion Ball Pythons are great "market" thing for a hobby... but make it less diverse...

I know a LOT of people believe BPs are destroying the hobby due to the morph-centric nature of them. The craze for new dinkers and morphs have started spilling into other species who do not have as many safe mutations and end up creating snakes that die right out of the egg...But the snake looks so cool that they try again and again and again year after year and end up with hundreds of dead snakes just to hope for one successful baby that grows..which will what...make more dead baby snakes? Then, like we've seen in super dwarf retics, carefully preserved localities of animals who we can no longer collect in the wild are starting to disappear, replaced with hybrids of localities that happen to have the morphs people want. Animals who have no found morphs also start to be worth less, despite being incredible captives and beautiful snakes in their own right. Their argument is that "It's not about the snakes themselves anymore, it's about if you can make money off their mutations and patterns, even if they cause kinks, infertility, or neurological problems"

Honestly, I can see what they are saying. There are a lot of INCREDIBLE animals who are great pets who no one is breeding because they don't come in albino or pied. The few people who want them end up getting wild caught specimens who die because of parasites/stress of being wild caught, and they get the impression these are not good snakes to have. Not to mention, in a morph minded world, line breeding is often pushed out the window-sure there is a NICE lesser that could improve your lines, but there is an okay lesser yellowbelly for the same price! Stuff like that. Sure, line bred snakes REALLY stand out...But the potential new breeder sees how gorgeous someone's carefully bred enchi cinnamon is, and mistakes that line breeding as "Oh, what a great combo morph!" and they buy a boring enchi and a cheap cinnamon and hope they get the same thing. Now this isn't everyone in the hobby, but good lord it happens a lot.

I don't think they are killing the hobby, but I can see how if things keep going in a bad direction...well.. It wouldn't help anybody, except the bp breeders.

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Originally Posted by Adam Chandler

I believe Ball Pythons are a great "gateway" snake. Great for converting people who have a fear of snakes due to ignorance (as I once had). I mean if you've never interacted with a snake you are much more likely to have a blind irrational fear of them.

Anyway my point is once people start learning about and keeping Ball Pythons and find out snakes are not "bad" as the media portrays them they are much more likely to explore the hobby and end up learning about and keeping other species as they become more experienced.

In conclusion I believe BP's help the hobby, but that's just my humble opinion.

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I agree. I once was scared if snakes too. Now I love my bps. They are very good natured and good for a house with children, who also love snakes. We have had many family members and friends who were scared of snakes come around a bit after interacting with our bps. And why are these people on bp.net and hacking on them? Its not all about the morphs. Its about a good natured pet.:P

If it wasn't for bp's I would have never got into having snakes, and looking into other kinds of snakes to own, so the snakes that you think are killing the hobby are exactly what got me into the hobby.

You know its funny but I feel sometimes this way as well never mind my first reptile was a Leopard Gecko. But lately it seems like everything I see or hear is Ball related. But I get reminded by people like Ron Tremper (gecko guy) or Heather Pitts (corn snakes) that there are area's of the hobby, professionals that have no interest in Balls. I think because this sites name is Ball-Python that tends to be a major focus. But you go to some other forums that don't focus on Balls and you'll quickly see how vast the Herp hobby really is..

P.S. I love sand boa's and in the future I will work with sand boa's I find them fascinating animals. I have also longed to have a group of Uromastyx's. My brother who does our rats like's Tortoise's, so some day we may have a few torts running around..

I have seen plenty of great thoughts and views expressed in this threaed, and thought I might add mine to the growing list.

I simply believe that Ball Pythons are doing zero harm to the hobby/industry. As many have stated, they make great gateway animals to get new people into the hobby. The larger percentage of the population that gets into the hobby, the harder it becomes for governments to place ill written regulations in place. Obviously as any industry grows, there may come a need for some sort of regulation. However, the larger the affected group, the harder it is to get regulations passed that will affect that group.

While Ball Pythons are very popular right now, there are plenty of breeders that breed other species of reptiles. The Ball Python market may actually be helping the smaller markets, by helping the prices of those other animals to stabilize or even increase. Let me explain that further by taking two species and applying what has happened with them over the last ten years or so. Ringed Pythons and Brazilian Rainbow Boas. These two species seem to be on cycles. Here is how the cycle works:

One year you go to a show and you can find BRBs all over the place. So, the supply has surpassed the demand. They are priced at $65 a piece. The following year, many breeders will not pair their Brazillians, because a) they still have stock from last year and b) they can't justify the cost of raising the babies for what the public is paying. So about two or three years goes by, and now you go to that same show. You are looking for a BRB. Guess what, only one guy has them, and they are priced at $150 a piece. He sells out at that higher price, because demand has surpassed supply. Next year, all of the BRB breeders pair their animals up, because they want to make $150 each for their snakes, because that is good money for a BRB. So in about two years after that event, the priced is back down because BRB's are everywhere. The cycle starts over again. I have seen the same thing with Ringed Pythons as well.

So, with that said, I think the pressure taken off of the other species, will drive breeders to make fewer of them, and thus drive prices up because demand is there and supply is low. I know this is a basis of economies, but I wanted to apply it directly to something in our industry.

I know that in the last two years I have gone from working with 4 species to now working with 10 species now. Although Ball Pythons are the bulk of my collection, there are some other species that really interest me, so I decided to work with them, albeit in small numbers. We now have and will breed in the next couple years the following: Ball Pythons, Blood Pythons, Angolan Pythons, Nicuraguan Boas, Kenyan Sand Boas, Corn Snakes, Honduran Milk Snakes, Western Hognose, Rhino Ratsnakes and while it will be a long while before we breed them, I do have and love watching my Aldabra tortoises and Columbian Red Foot tortoises.

That is my take on the subject, and possibly this thread may actually convince a few people to go out and research and pick up a new species.

I personally am a fan of ball pythons but the only other snake i care for would be blood pythons when I go to shows all I ever see is other snakes and reptiles I rarely see a lot of ball pythons at the shows in the portland seattle area

There are many excellent points on this thread. I definitely agree that it is obnoxious seeing only ball python morphs at shows. However, while I believe ball pythons will always be a staple in the hobby because of their docile temperament and hardiness for beginner keepers, I think the "morph craze" is just a fad and will pass. Color variety does not make up for the knowledge and excitement that comes from working with a variety of species.

[QUOTE=Crazy4Herps;1640240I think the "morph craze" is just a fad and will pass.[/QUOTE]

I disagree there are so many new morphs coming out each week everyone wants a chance to create something new. Morphs are definately not a fad and the primary reason you can justify selling a bannana ball for $60k

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Originally Posted by Crazy4Herps

There are many excellent points on this thread. I definitely agree that it is obnoxious seeing only ball python morphs at shows. However, while I believe ball pythons will always be a staple in the hobby because of their docile temperament and hardiness for beginner keepers, I think the "morph craze" is just a fad and will pass. Color variety does not make up for the knowledge and excitement that comes from working with a variety of species.

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I don't think so. With over 60 base mutations (morphs) identified - we'll never see the endless combos that can be made, in our lifetime. That keeps it exciting for those of us who work with ball pythons.

That keeps it fun!

I also keep Cali kings, Sonoran gophers and San Antonio line black milks. No current plan to breed them, but I do have pairs so that I can if my focus changes.

Might have to hit Mr. Tim up for an angolan one day! :P

I bought some balls, well a lot of balls, and then started branching out. I now have Super Dwarf Retics, Tarantulas, and a lot of rats. I wouldn't have any of those animals if I hadn't gotten into balls and I'm sure my collection will continue to grow, both balls, and "others". They were my gateway snake :D

Regards,

B

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Originally Posted by Crazy4Herps

I think the "morph craze" is just a fad and will pass. Color variety does not make up for the knowledge and excitement that comes from working with a variety of species.

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See:
- corn snakes
- leopard geckos

Balls started it for me but that was just the beginning. My GTP has awakened a fascination with all things morelia and all I want to do is branch out and care for new species. My "want" list is mostly species other than ball pythons. If the only species you want to care for is ball pythons then so be it. I think that the people that want to branch out will and those that don't want to shouldn't. The internet has made if possible to find any species you want even if the local expo only has ball morphs.

I always considered my self a "gecko or lizard guy" but ball pythons kinda opened my eyes in terms of the snake world. I have bred and kept hundereds of geckos and lizards but it kinda always seemed like something was missing. Since I have got into ball pythons I find myself having a more enjoyment back into the hobby. I also have corn snakes and hope to someday have some type of boa just not sure which one I would like to get into yet. So I guess you could say ball pythons are a gateway snake for me also.

I can see both sides of the coin on this point.

I've always been fascinated by snakes of all kinds, although admittedly ignorant when it came to the different breeds, types, etc. What got us into our BP love was a co-worker of mine who is an avid snake lover who has a huge variety. She brought into school a red tailed boa and it was really spectacular - I thought it was cool, but that's about all I thought about it, lol. The next day, she brought in a normal BP and I was instantly in love (as was my son who was visiting that day). I was thrilled with their temperament, their smaller size, and with the ease of care. We adopted our first BP, and even though she's a normal, she is the most stunning animal I've ever seen. I don't care if she's a morph or not. She's spectacular.

But BP's are what brought me into the hobby. I like other reptiles, but not so much that I'd want to keep them. I think BP's are expanding the hobby but, just like any animal, when irresponsible people think they can make a quick buck off of breeding, it makes a holy heck of a mess. And some people only see dollar signs and forget that these are living animals. It's heartbreaking, whether it's dogs or BP's. Two sides of the same coin.

...and I hope I'm making some sense - it's the end of my work day and I'm exhausted!

First snake was a rat. Second was a rosy boa. Third was a BP. Fourth was a king. Fifth was a BRB. Sixth was a corn. Seventh was a JCP. This was over the course of 15+ years. Every snake beyond those has been a BP. I enjoy keeping a variety of species, but prefer to work with BPs.

Keeping a diverse collection has enabled me to decide where my passion is. I appreciate every animal I keep and look forward to exploring other species. Will I ever breed burms? No. Will I ever own one? I hope so. But that's why there are burm breeders; they found where their passion is...

I don't think BPs are killing the hobby. As many people have stated, balls and corns are the gateway snake. The money they bring multi-species breeders helps those breeders breed, care for, and advertise the other species. They do a wonder as PR agents. They make wonderful singular pets. They're more easily affordable than higher-end reptiles.

My philosophy is as follows: if people want another species, they will get another species. There are plenty of people that exclusively breed BCIs, or sand boas, or GTPs, or carpets, or ETPs, or kings, or milks, or just about any other species you can think of. If people really want one of those species, they will go to those breeders and get one for a price they are comfortable with. The day I find a pied ball python more easily and for less than an albino BCI will be the day I think they're killing the hobby.

Ball Pythons are what helped get me into Carpet Pythons, Short-Tail Pythons & Dwarf Boas...

I've got two ball pythons, and a few breeding projects planned, but they're a small part of the wishlist of 200+ species I want to keep someday. Simply started with balls because they seemed easy to take care of and get used to as far as reptiles go. I don't plan to breed mass for profit, but whatever animals I may produce in excess will probably end up on a smaller table at one of the local reptile shows. They aren't destroying the hobby, but they're a very common part of it and with more people being introduced to snakes as pets (got a few of my friends addicted :D ) they'll continue to grow as a large presence

I don't think they hurt the industry. My first snake at 16 was a ball pythons. I really like them. I like their size and temperament. I also Love the morphs. However I have had other snakes. Burms, BCI, BRB, MBK, Corn snakes, pine snakes, JCP, xenopeltus, liasis fuscus and bloods. I still have the BCI, pine snake, MBK Balls and bloods. I will be branching out and picking up some angolians and olive pythons in the next few years.

I also have other non snake herps and ball pythons are what made it possible.

I'm pretty sure that if you could go back in time, you'd see the same sort of commentary about corn snakes. Before people were finding how to keep BPs to counter the "picky eater" issues and all the colorful morphs, BPs were not in demand because they were plain Janes next to all the easily kept morph cornsnakes.

So corns are still all over, including at shows. Leopard geckos have recently had a hey-day as well, with many tables of leos at shows. BPs are extremely popular right now, same as corns in their day, same as leos recently.

Just because corns aren't the biggest thing right now doesn't mean there aren't tons and tons of them around, being bred, combined, sold. Same with leos.

The snakes mentioned haven't ever seemed to be very prevalent on the tables to me. Boas are popular, and at shows I see a lot of boas, BPs, leos, corns, and then in lesser amounts, various colubrids, tree pythons and boas and then scattered about, the rarer kept species. (Keep in mind, shows I attend are in Florida, so no burms or retics, although those were popular before the ban)

Most people that I know who have BPs end up branching out to other species and in some cases they switch entirely. BPs are a great gateway animal, same as corns were/are.

So no, BPs aren't harming the hobby. They're taking their place in the line-up. Something else will take their place in a few years. It could be something like ringed pythons, or maybe blackheaded pythons, or some of those rare locality boas. There's no way to tell.

It's a cycle, and it's natural in every aspect of human history. Just like baseball was the most popular sport, then football, then basketball... none of the previous sports died. None of the less popular sports(golf? cricket? soccer? bowling?) died out just because America suddenly jumped onto a major bandwagon(Nascar?) and the sport grew suddenly in great leaps of popularity.

Keeping reptiles will always involve some species being more popular than others. If I couldn't keep BPs, it doesn't neccasarily mean I'd start keeping some Central American boa species. I don't care for boas. I don't care for corns. But I do keep 3 other species of reptile with my BP collection. The people who love the lesser-kept species won't stop keeping them just because the latest purple spotted shark finned BP morph has appeared. There's plenty of room for all the various species in the hobby. And BPs draw in even more keepers.