Questions for the breeders

Ok so this was our first year breeding balls and we had a really good year. Nothing special really, three spider x normal clutches and a Mojave x normal clutch but out of 27 eggs we only had one egg go bad and no slugs so we are pretty happy with the success and we want to start by saying thanks to the members here for teaching us most of what we now know about breeding.

We have had a few questions pop up and we have found nothing but good information here so far so we are hoping we can pick the brains of those of you who breed on a little larger scale than just a couple clutches a year. This year we are planning to breed several codom and Dom males to normal females in an effort to produce codom and Dom females to build our own collection as well as for future breeding stock. We will also have a couple het to het pairings and possibly one Dom male to codom female pairing if she hits size in time. Anyway, we are planning to breed 16 normal females and three other females for a maximum of 19 clutches. Now we understand that it's not likely that all 19 females will actually take and produce a clutch but we naturally want to be prepared if they did. So doing quick average math; 19 clutches x 5 eggs = 95 eggs/hatchlings. Again, it's not likely to have 95 good hatchlings but it is possible and we want to be ready. Sorry so long winded here are the questions:

1: How often does everyone here feed hatchlings? Meaning the hatchlings you are planning to sell, not what you are holding back or planning to breed.

2: Do you attempt frozen thawed right off the bat or do you only do that once they are established as solid feeders?

3: How long do you wait to assist feed? I have heard 6-7 weeks but I think it was Brian Gundy that assists everything at the 3 week mark.

4: What suggestions do you all have on moving normals? In coming years we will produce less and less normals as we upgrade our breeders to exclude the normal females and move from single gene males to double gene males and eventually a minimum of two gene animals for both male and female but in the meantime it is inevitable that we will be producing quite a few normals. Now females are not nearly as much of an issue of course but the males are essentially worthless from a breeding standpoint. I know to use local pet stores, craigslist, and other classifieds but I was just wondering if some of you had outlets that we had not thought of. I also know some of the larger breeders cull normals but I'm simply not comfortable with this idea. I'm in this first for the love of the animal and a distant second for the money I can make so I feel like if I'm culling normals then we have lost sight of why we do this in the first place.

Again, sorry so long winded and I thank you guys in advance for any advice you can offer.

Great questions!

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I also know some of the larger breeders cull normals

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Seriously? That is really messed up...

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Originally Posted by Amon Ra Reptiles

Ok so this was our first year breeding balls and we had a really good year. Nothing special really, three spider x normal clutches and a Mojave x normal clutch but out of 27 eggs we only had one egg go bad and no slugs so we are pretty happy with the success and we want to start by saying thanks to the members here for teaching us most of what we now know about breeding.

We have had a few questions pop up and we have found nothing but good information here so far so we are hoping we can pick the brains of those of you who breed on a little larger scale than just a couple clutches a year. This year we are planning to breed several codom and Dom males to normal females in an effort to produce codom and Dom females to build our own collection as well as for future breeding stock. We will also have a couple het to het pairings and possibly one Dom male to codom female pairing if she hits size in time. Anyway, we are planning to breed 16 normal females and three other females for a maximum of 19 clutches. Now we understand that it's not likely that all 19 females will actually take and produce a clutch but we naturally want to be prepared if they did. So doing quick average math; 19 clutches x 5 eggs = 95 eggs/hatchlings. Again, it's not likely to have 95 good hatchlings but it is possible and we want to be ready. Sorry so long winded here are the questions:

1: How often does everyone here feed hatchlings? Meaning the hatchlings you are planning to sell, not what you are holding back or planning to breed. I offer my hatchlings every 3 to 4 days

2: Do you attempt frozen thawed right off the bat or do you only do that once they are established as solid feeders? I do offer F/T first (with a pretty good success rate) unless they refuse upto the 2nd feeding then I offer live until they are more established. After I feel they have established I will offer f/t again.

3: How long do you wait to assist feed? I have heard 6-7 weeks but I think it was Brian Gundy that assists everything at the 3 week mark. I dont go much over a month with a non feeding hatchling.

4: What suggestions do you all have on moving normals? In coming years we will produce less and less normals as we upgrade our breeders to exclude the normal females and move from single gene males to double gene males and eventually a minimum of two gene animals for both male and female but in the meantime it is inevitable that we will be producing quite a few normals. Now females are not nearly as much of an issue of course but the males are essentially worthless from a breeding standpoint. I know to use local pet stores, craigslist, and other classifieds but I was just wondering if some of you had outlets that we had not thought of. I also know some of the larger breeders cull normals but I'm simply not comfortable with this idea. I'm in this first for the love of the animal and a distant second for the money I can make so I feel like if I'm culling normals then we have lost sight of why we do this in the first place. If I have normals, typically I trade them off to a local reptile & aquarium store for extra frozen rodents.

Again, sorry so long winded and I thank you guys in advance for any advice you can offer.

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I start all babies on live. I try rat pinks/fuzzies first unless the baby is a small one. Pinks/fuzzies that are 2-3 weeks old. Mouse hoppers usually work for the ones that refuse.

On occasion I've used ASF to start stubborn babies and they have always switched to mice or rats within a few weeks once they get the hang of feeding.

I use to switch to FT but started switching to PK instead to save time and money since I breed my own.

I assist feed no later than 4-5 weeks when all else fails. It usually only takes 2-3 assist feeds and the baby will then take mouse hoppers or rat pups on it's own.

This year I got lucky and all but 2 started on rats.

I feed babies every 4-5 days. I feed slightly smaller meals and get a faster growth rate. I have a plump 200 gram female that hatched in may.

I wholesale normals to my local reptile store, sell them for local pick up at the price of a normal, or to friends for next to nothing.

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Originally Posted by Amon Ra Reptiles

1: How often does everyone here feed hatchlings? Meaning the hatchlings you are planning to sell, not what you are holding back or planning to breed.

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I feed all snakes the same whether they get sold or not.
Hatchlings get offered every 3-4 days

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2: Do you attempt frozen thawed right off the bat or do you only do that once they are established as solid feeders?

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I don't feeding anything f/t

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3: How long do you wait to assist feed? I have heard 6-7 weeks but I think it was Brian Gundy that assists everything at the 3 week mark.

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4 weeks unless it's deemed necessary before that.

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4: What suggestions do you all have on moving normals?

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Pet stores, CL and friends as most others do.

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1: How often does everyone here feed hatchlings? Meaning the hatchlings you are planning to sell, not what you are holding back or planning to breed.

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Every 4 days for the first 3 meals and once a week after that.

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2: Do you attempt frozen thawed right off the bat or do you only do that once they are established as solid feeders?

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I feed live and switch some hatchling on F/T at customer's request.

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3: How long do you wait to assist feed? I have heard 6-7 weeks but I think it was Brian Gundy that assists everything at the 3 week mark.

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I consider assisting around week 6 depends on a lot of things (hatching weight, health, overall look, and whether or not everything has been tried)

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4: What suggestions do you all have on moving normals?

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I wholesale normals to a local pet store.

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Originally Posted by Amon Ra Reptiles

Ok so this was our first year breeding balls and we had a really good year. Nothing special really, three spider x normal clutches and a Mojave x normal clutch but out of 27 eggs we only had one egg go bad and no slugs so we are pretty happy with the success and we want to start by saying thanks to the members here for teaching us most of what we now know about breeding.

We have had a few questions pop up and we have found nothing but good information here so far so we are hoping we can pick the brains of those of you who breed on a little larger scale than just a couple clutches a year. This year we are planning to breed several codom and Dom males to normal females in an effort to produce codom and Dom females to build our own collection as well as for future breeding stock. We will also have a couple het to het pairings and possibly one Dom male to codom female pairing if she hits size in time. Anyway, we are planning to breed 16 normal females and three other females for a maximum of 19 clutches. Now we understand that it's not likely that all 19 females will actually take and produce a clutch but we naturally want to be prepared if they did. So doing quick average math; 19 clutches x 5 eggs = 95 eggs/hatchlings. Again, it's not likely to have 95 good hatchlings but it is possible and we want to be ready. Sorry so long winded here are the questions:

1: How often does everyone here feed hatchlings? Meaning the hatchlings you are planning to sell, not what you are holding back or planning to breed. I feed live mouse hoppers or rat pinks(depending on sizes) every 5-7 days no matter where they go.

2: Do you attempt frozen thawed right off the bat or do you only do that once they are established as solid feeders?Never feed anything F/T

3: How long do you wait to assist feed? I have heard 6-7 weeks but I think it was Brian Gundy that assists everything at the 3 week mark. I have gone 6-8 weeks, depends on the snake in question.

4: What suggestions do you all have on moving normals? In coming years we will produce less and less normals as we upgrade our breeders to exclude the normal females and move from single gene males to double gene males and eventually a minimum of two gene animals for both male and female but in the meantime it is inevitable that we will be producing quite a few normals. Now females are not nearly as much of an issue of course but the males are essentially worthless from a breeding standpoint. I know to use local pet stores, craigslist, and other classifieds but I was just wondering if some of you had outlets that we had not thought of. I also know some of the larger breeders cull normals but I'm simply not comfortable with this idea. I'm in this first for the love of the animal and a distant second for the money I can make so I feel like if I'm culling normals then we have lost sight of why we do this in the first place.

I wholesale them, sell or trade directly to pet shops or sometimes I include them in group deals. I would only cull a severely deformed animal, I personally have never heard of anyone culling normal ball pythons.

Again, sorry so long winded and I thank you guys in advance for any advice you can offer.

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Yep you have received some pretty good advice so far.

I feed my hatchlings live rats every 4 days. If someone wanted me to try feeding them f/t I would, but live is so much easier. I have been trying assist feeding at 6 weeks, we'll see how it goes. As far as moving them, pet stores, animal swaps/auctions, craigslist, and friends/family.

Great answers thanks for the help guys

1. I offer food to all of my animals, breeders and babies, for-sale or holdbacks, once every 7 days.

2. I ypically start my baby balls on live fuzzy rats. On occasion I've had some refuse to start on those, and if so, I offer mice hoppers; once they've eaten at least 2-3 mice hoppers, I offer fuzzy rats again. Most switch over easily from that point. Once the babies have had three live consecutive meals, I then begin to offer frozen/thawed. Those that have already been accepting meals have not refused my f/t offerings to date (providing the f/t is warmed up above room temperature).

3. I wait until the babies are 5-6 weeks old (keeping in mind that the first week or week and a half of age is pre-shed and pre-food-offering) before I begin to assist feed. Buying a scale to weigh your snakes (if you don't already have one) is one of the best investments you can make. Monitor your hatchlings' weight and overall appearance. If the baby's backbone begins to protrude, you see loose hanging skin, or if the baby begins acting lethargic, it is definitely time to attempt assist-feeding. However, it is best to catch this early on. Any noticeable attitude changes in the babies are the first sign that assist-feeding should be attempted.

4. Like most others I have a local pet store that buys normals from me, or I give them away to close friends that I know will take care of them. I have heard of bigger breeders freezing their normals (or else selling them off as food for other snakes that consume snakes), but I completely understand where you're coming from. I personally couldn't do either of those things (yes, I do realize people, myself included, breeds rats merely for feeders, but to me it's a different story: if you breed the clutch entirely as food for other snakes, I could live with it--if you're simply pulling the normals to sell off as food, that bothers me--the baby couldn't control what color it's skin turned out to be or what pattern it would have).

Hope this helps!

I'm curious, how do you decide that you want to wholesale normals to a pet store? We all know the horror stories of what happens to ball pythons in bad pet stores, chains and local, so how do you go about choosing one you think will treat them well? Anyone ever have issues with this? (go back to the store to find dying/sick baby snakes of yours, etc.)

The last decent pet store near me moved locations so it's now 6 hours away, so I know that wouldn't be an option for me--The pet stores left are all terrible, I've never seen a healthy reptile in any of them(Even saw a chinese water dragon who had rubbed his front of his face off--to the bone!) Because of this I've had to think around the whole idea of wholesaling snakes. It just wouldn't feel right to send any of them to a place like that. I know when I start breeding I'm hoping to minimize normals by including visual recessive genes so I'll at least have hets/have the only normals be VERY nice quality by buying only high quality animals so they can find good homes too.

I certainly wouldn't let my normals go to a pet store that I thought took bad care of their herps. When mine do go to a pet store, it's a small reptile store that doesn't have much stock. I would say their care is about average as far as reptile stores go. I haven't ever seen any sick or neglected animals there and they do keep things clean.

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Originally Posted by purplemuffin

I'm curious, how do you decide that you want to wholesale normals to a pet store? We all know the horror stories of what happens to ball pythons in bad pet stores, chains and local, so how do you go about choosing one you think will treat them well? Anyone ever have issues with this? (go back to the store to find dying/sick baby snakes of yours, etc.)

The last decent pet store near me moved locations so it's now 6 hours away, so I know that wouldn't be an option for me--The pet stores left are all terrible, I've never seen a healthy reptile in any of them(Even saw a chinese water dragon who had rubbed his front of his face off--to the bone!) Because of this I've had to think around the whole idea of wholesaling snakes. It just wouldn't feel right to send any of them to a place like that. I know when I start breeding I'm hoping to minimize normals by including visual recessive genes so I'll at least have hets/have the only normals be VERY nice quality by buying only high quality animals so they can find good homes too.

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The pet store I am wholesaling to is a reptile specialty store not only do they have their store, they also breed a few things and do shows on a regular basis.

No matter who you sell to store or private owner their is no way you can control what will happen to the animal, you can only hope for the best or you can keep them all so you won't have to worry ;)

There are store I would not sell to but people have have met and learn to know at shows are those that have the means to sell them and those whom I chose to sell to.

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Originally Posted by purplemuffin

I'm curious, how do you decide that you want to wholesale normals to a pet store? We all know the horror stories of what happens to ball pythons in bad pet stores, chains and local, so how do you go about choosing one you think will treat them well? Anyone ever have issues with this? (go back to the store to find dying/sick baby snakes of yours, etc.)

The last decent pet store near me moved locations so it's now 6 hours away, so I know that wouldn't be an option for me--The pet stores left are all terrible, I've never seen a healthy reptile in any of them(Even saw a chinese water dragon who had rubbed his front of his face off--to the bone!) Because of this I've had to think around the whole idea of wholesaling snakes. It just wouldn't feel right to send any of them to a place like that. I know when I start breeding I'm hoping to minimize normals by including visual recessive genes so I'll at least have hets/have the only normals be VERY nice quality by buying only high quality animals so they can find good homes too.

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As most everyone else has said, I have only one pet store that I am willing to sell mine to. Their animals are kept clean and healthy, and while the store does "maintenance feed" (which I don't agree with--if I'm paying good money for your animal, it should be well-fed on a proper, timely diet), I can overlook that. There's never any stuck sheds, poo piled up, horrible incidents with thermometers stuck to snakes (yes, that happened near me at a local chain pet store). The one I sell to is privately owned and run, and the owner really does know what he's doing. He knows reptiles, and he knows how to care for them properly. In addition, I've actually heard him telling his customers the correct information for caring for a specific reptile they are buying. Granted, that's not to say that everyone listens, but at least he is making the effort. He's probably the only reptile store I'd recommend locally to others.

I wanted to clarify why I was asking about feeding frequency. I feed my breeders and holdbacks every four days but with a potential of near 100 hatchlings feeding basically twice a week that's upwards of 800 rat pinkies a month! My thought is that on the animals I plan to sell I could slow down the feed schedule somewhat to help lessen the strain of producing that many pinkies. I know some maintenance feed balls every fourteen days and I wasn't thinking that slow but every 7-10 as opposed to every four. Now I know that doesn't sound like a huge difference but assuming we hold 20 back next year (which is probably high) that leaves 80 hatchlings. Now feeding 80 hatchlings every four days is roughly 640 pinks a month. Now slow those same 80 hatchlings down to every ten days and you're down to 240 pinks a month. Major difference!

A couple things to consider is naturally I would only slow down the feeding after they had accepted the first couple meals so I know they are feeding well and it would of course be handled on a snake by snake basis but that gives you a rough idea. I just wondered if anyone else did this.

I don't breed on that level so I don't have to feed like that. I'm not sure what bigger breeders do. I do know it's quite hard to get babies to start on FT but if they take rat pinks as their first 2-3 meals, they should switch to FT immediately which would help.

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Originally Posted by Amon Ra Reptiles

I wanted to clarify why I was asking about feeding frequency. I feed my breeders and holdbacks every four days but with a potential of near 100 hatchlings feeding basically twice a week that's upwards of 800 rat pinkies a month! My thought is that on the animals I plan to sell I could slow down the feed schedule somewhat to help lessen the strain of producing that many pinkies. I know some maintenance feed balls every fourteen days and I wasn't thinking that slow but every 7-10 as opposed to every four. Now I know that doesn't sound like a huge difference but assuming we hold 20 back next year (which is probably high) that leaves 80 hatchlings. Now feeding 80 hatchlings every four days is roughly 640 pinks a month. Now slow those same 80 hatchlings down to every ten days and you're down to 240 pinks a month. Major difference!

A couple things to consider is naturally I would only slow down the feeding after they had accepted the first couple meals so I know they are feeding well and it would of course be handled on a snake by snake basis but that gives you a rough idea. I just wondered if anyone else did this.

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Sup wild man !! I can tell you one thing. Those who maintence feed their babies, have them longer. People want to purchase FAT babies !!!! Yes, the ones you have longer you'll have more invested into, but they will be very healthy and you customers will be very happy.

I'm running 75-80 adult rats and have no problem feeding my hatchlings 50+ atm. with last years holdback and this years babies the only problem I have is getting rats to med size for the breeders.

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Originally Posted by Thesnakepitt

Sup wild man !! I can tell you one thing. Those who maintence feed their babies, have them longer. People want to purchase FAT babies !!!! Yes, the ones you have longer you'll have more invested into, but they will be very healthy and you customers will be very happy.

I'm running 75-80 adult rats and have no problem feeding my hatchlings 50+ atm. with last years holdback and this years babies the only problem I have is getting rats to med size for the breeders.

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I agree. Keep in mind that baby snakes are growing much faster than adults are. Adults can be fed less frequesntly than babies, because adults are merely maintaining their weight (with the exception of breeding females, in which case they need a little extra body fat); babies are using their food intake to turn into size and weight. I don't know that I would ever go to a 10-14 day schedule for babies, but I would say that 5-7 is safe. As I said before, I feed all of my animals every 7 days (regardless of size); sometimes the adults refuse, but they're offered nonetheless. The babies I've produced have grown very well on a 7-day schedule; I am using rat pinks/fuzzies/pups, etc. however (not mice). Even if I have a picky baby that I have to get started on hopper mice, I switch them over to rat fuzzies within 2-4 feedings. Young rats will give your baby snakes more nutrients than mice do, and thus they will grow much better. I have a male spider I produced last season that was already breeder weight (800 grams) as of his being 1 year old, and he was fed appropriately sized rats from his first shed to date once per week. Remember, it's OK for babies to have a small lump in their bellies after feeding, though not as recommended for adults.

Hey Bob, that's actually my concern, I'm sure I can produce the pinks to feed em I'm just concerned about producing enough medium rats for the breeders and the last thing I want is to let my breeders miss meals for hatchlings. That's obviously counter productive.

This year was kind of an eye opener for us. We were running 25 tubs total with 5 mouse tubs 5 Asf colonies and 5 grow out tubs for weaned feeders. So only ten breeding groups of rats for 45 adults and 25 hatchlings and we had a surplus of medium rats for a while until our hatchlings all got on the ground then there was still enough for all but it has been touch and go for a while. I'm thinking that we will start to add tubs as our clutches hit the ground next spring that way they can begin producing while our eggs are cooking. I'm thinking to stay with the same amount of mice and ASFs and increase rats to 25 breeding tubs overall and hopefully that will keep us close and we can supplement with some f/t for those who will take it.

This is a great post!

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Originally Posted by Amon Ra Reptiles

Hey Bob, that's actually my concern, I'm sure I can produce the pinks to feed em I'm just concerned about producing enough medium rats for the breeders and the last thing I want is to let my breeders miss meals for hatchlings. That's obviously counter productive.

This year was kind of an eye opener for us. We were running 25 tubs total with 5 mouse tubs 5 Asf colonies and 5 grow out tubs for weaned feeders. So only ten breeding groups of rats for 45 adults and 25 hatchlings and we had a surplus of medium rats for a while until our hatchlings all got on the ground then there was still enough for all but it has been touch and go for a while. I'm thinking that we will start to add tubs as our clutches hit the ground next spring that way they can begin producing while our eggs are cooking. I'm thinking to stay with the same amount of mice and ASFs and increase rats to 25 breeding tubs overall and hopefully that will keep us close and we can supplement with some f/t for those who will take it.

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Yep that's the kicker for sure. I have jsut feed 2x's a week feeding smalls to my breeders. They are still gaining well. Then the breeders who never refuse FT I get either meds or lg at the shows. So Far ALL of my females that laid are either at weight or OVER pre-lay weight.

Well and that's what were doing as well. We are doubling up on the smaller food items for our animals we are trying to get to weight or regain weight from laying.