I am so confused about breeding morphs...

I dont really have any interest in breeding, just in having a pet or a few... but just for the sake of satisfying my curiosity... well, actually I dont even know where to start. Where does it start? If you are a breeder, what was your first morph and how did it come to be?

Most if not all morphs originated from the wild at some point in time. People imported bags of ball pythons from Africa and noticed some where visually different. These snakes where bred by whomever had acquired them to other ball pythons to see if it was genetic. So thats how it starts.

Now you've got 3 different types of genetic mutations. This tells you how a snake passes its certain mutations along into its offspring and If it has a Super form.
Recessive - Albinos, Genetic stripes, Pied
Dominant - Spider, Pinstripe, Just some examples.
Co-Dominant - Pastel, Fire, YellowBelly

I started off with a normal female about 6 years ago. I recently wanted to get into breeding, So I went and purchased a Pastel male and Lesser male to breed with. If you are talking about making(finding) your own very first morph, it isn't that simple. You have to breed something for many generations to prove something is genetic. Either recessive or Dom/Co-dom.

There are also alot of combinations within the snakes that are already proven genetic, that haven't been made yet. So you could be the first to produce a specific combo.


Hope this helps.

I had just started with a Pastel male and a normal female. I was really intrigued alteady with breeding from my breeding leos and other geckos. From there I fell in love with alot of The other morphs and I slowly gained my wonderful collection.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

WOW.. Nice question..

For me it started with a Pastel then an albino, then a pied, then then then .. wow.. you can see my signature box..

for me its a hobby.. if i can make some money in order to pay myself back or buy some more cool stuff i will.

Fun Fun Fun and addicting.

Richie

Started with albino ball pythons for me, from a gorgeous high-contrast female I bought from Ben Siegel years ago. I've never been too nuts about albinos, but that girl always caught everyone's attention. Just went on from there. I'm sure you could find lots of other great info in the breeding subforum here!

well, actually what I meant was what was the first visible traits you saw... in your own babies... I guess... geez, I dunno. thats the thing, I don't even know where to start questions or researching. how does one start to breed morphs? You get one of something and another of something else and see what happens?
i didn't realize there was a breeding forum, i'll have to check that out! thanks!

Do some googling - breeding morphs is all about genetics. Learn what heterozygous (het) and homozygous means. Familiarize yourself with the terms dominant, recessive, co-dom, etc., and learn which morphs are what.

For example, pastel is a dominant trait. If you crossed it with a normal ball python, you would get 50% pastel babies and 50% het for pastel babies.

It's about math and selective breeding :)

My first morph was an albino. I have ALWAYS loved that coloration.

Markus Jayne has a gorgeously illustrated example of genetics:
http://www.ballpython.ca/genetics.html

My first morph was a pastel male, and it kind of snowballed from there!

Our first ball python morphs (and only to date) are a Pastel Orange Ghost and a Pastel Het Orange Ghost.

It took us a few years of keeping herps after college before we decided to pick up a BP morph project. My gf decided she really was interested in a SPOG project, so we just waited a good 5 or 6 months until we came across the animals we wanted.

My first 'morph' snake was in fact my FIRST snake ever, an amel corn snake 17 years ago. Never bred it.

As for 'where to start out'? Well the first thing you have to do is learn to take care of these animals. I'd heartily suggest reading up on their care, and when you've prepared a home for a new animal, go shopping for one. There's nothing wrong with buying a morph with no intention of breeding it, and just having a beautiful animal to show off. If that's the case, shop for a male morph, as they tend to be less pricey than a female who looks very similar. If you think you might want to breed sometime down the road, I'd suggest getting a female, as they take longer to get up to size, and you're going to need one anyways.

In the end, the best place to start out is just finding an eye-appealing animal that excites you and learn to take care of it

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Originally Posted by Mohegan

For example, pastel is a dominant trait. If you crossed it with a normal ball python, you would get 50% pastel babies and 50% het for pastel babies

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With doms (pastel, spider, pin) there is no het form. There is no such thing as Het for pastel. It is either pastel or normal. Het refers to recessives. An albino bred to a normal would produce all het for albinos. Het albino to het albino produces albinos.

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Originally Posted by Austin C

With doms (pastel, spider, pin) there is no het form. There is no such thing as Het for pastel. It is either pastel or normal. Het refers to recessives. An albino bred to a normal would produce all het for albinos. Het albino to het albino produces albinos.

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Doi. Thanks :P

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Originally Posted by Mohegan

Doi. Thanks :P

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;)

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Originally Posted by Mohegan

Do some googling - breeding morphs is all about genetics. Learn what heterozygous (het) and homozygous means. Familiarize yourself with the terms dominant, recessive, co-dom, etc., and learn which morphs are what.

For example, pastel is a dominant trait. If you crossed it with a normal ball python, you would get 50% pastel babies and 50% het for pastel babies.

It's about math and selective breeding :)

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Pastel is actually co-dominant and of course there is no het for pastel. Like you said it's all about research ;)

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Originally Posted by Austin C

With doms (pastel, spider, pin) there is no het form. There is no such thing as Het for pastel. It is either pastel or normal. Het refers to recessives. An albino bred to a normal would produce all het for albinos. Het albino to het albino produces albinos.

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Yes and no while there is no het for pastel, pastel however is an het itself ;) the homozygous form being the Super Pastel.

In other words there are visual hets (Pastel, YB, Mojave, Cinny) and there are non visual hets (normal looking animals) carrying a recessive gene. (Pied, Albino etc)

Also Het Albinos X Het Albinos produces Albinos yes (25% chances per eggs) but would also produce normal looking offspring that would each be considered 66% Het Albinos. ;)

To the OP take your time enjoy the ownership of your first BP get some experience under your belt as a successful owner, you have plenty of time to learn about genetics and breeding as your BP grows. :gj:

We started with a pastel, and our most recent is a gorgeous bumblebee! I love the bumblebee. Markus Jayne does have a nice website with some good looking snakes.

An animal inherits one copy of each gene from each of its parents.

A recessive trait will not be visible unless the animal has 2 copies of a gene (one from each parent).

A dominant trait will be visible if the animal has only 1 copy of the gene.

A co-dominant trait will be visible if the animal has only 1 copy of the gene, and will produce an animal that looks DIFFERENT from the animal with 1 copy, if 2 copies of the gene are present.

Heterozygous means that there is one copy of the gene present. Thus, a 'het for albino' carries 1 copy of the albino gene. Since albino is recessive, a 'het for albino' will look like a normal ball python. A pastel also carries one copy of the pastel gene. Since pastel is co-dominant, it will look like a pastel. Pinstripe is dominant. A pinstripe that carries one copy of the pinstripe gene will look like a pinstripe.

Homozygous means that there are two copies of the gene present. An albino carries two copies of the albino gene, and since albino is recessive, looks like an albino. A super pastel carries two copies of the pastel gene. Since pastel is co-dominant, it looks like a super pastel. A super pinstripe carries two copies of the pinstripe gene, but since pinstripe is dominant, it looks like a pinstripe.

Co-dominant traits are among the most common mutant color/pattern genes found in ball pythons. Recessive traits are less common, and dominant traits are (so far) pretty rare.

Spider is not a dominant gene, by the way. If it were dominant, homozygous animals that look like spiders would exist, but none have ever been produced. It is possible that spider is co-dominant with a lethal super form, or that something else is going on.

If you're still with me....
Now you know that there can be no such thing as a het for pastel, because all pastels ARE hets. If the animal from a pastel breeding looks normal, it IS normal.

You know that only traits that cause animals to look exactly the same, whether they carry one or two copies of a mutant gene, are dominant.

You know that animals that carry one copy of a recessive gene will look normal, so they should only be purchased from a trusted person (and having verifying paperwork is a good idea).

One final tip: When you see a '50% het for albino', what that actually means is that someone bred a het for albino to an animal that did not carry the albino gene. An animal that has one copy of a gene can pass on either the mutant gene, or the normal copy of the same gene that it also carries. As a result, about 50% of its offspring will have the mutant gene, and the other 50% will have the normal gene.
Since recessive traits that are heterozygous produce an animal that looks normal, you cannot tell which babies inherited the gene, and which did not. So a "50% het for albino" doesn't have half the gene, it has a 50% chance of carrying the gene, and a 50% chance of not carrying (being completely normal). 50% refers to the odds that the animal has the mutant gene. Once it is bred to another het or to an albino, it will become clear whether the gene is present--it will either produce albinos, which verifies it carries the gene, or it will not produce any albinos, which means it probably doesn't carry the gene.

Once the gene is proven to exist, it becomes '100% het for albino', or a 'proven het for albino'.

If all of that is FAR too confusing, don't worry. Start small, with a morph that you like, and learn how that morph's genetics work. You can learn the rest as you go. :)

I'm just going to add...well, hhrrmmm...nothing. Well said, bravo!

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

An animal inherits one copy of each gene from each of its parents.

A recessive trait will not be visible unless the animal has 2 copies of a gene (one from each parent).

A dominant trait will be visible if the animal has only 1 copy of the gene.

A co-dominant trait will be visible if the animal has only 1 copy of the gene, and will produce an animal that looks DIFFERENT from the animal with 1 copy, if 2 copies of the gene are present.

Heterozygous means that there is one copy of the gene present. Thus, a 'het for albino' carries 1 copy of the albino gene. Since albino is recessive, a 'het for albino' will look like a normal ball python. A pastel also carries one copy of the pastel gene. Since pastel is co-dominant, it will look like a pastel. Pinstripe is dominant. A pinstripe that carries one copy of the pinstripe gene will look like a pinstripe.

Homozygous means that there are two copies of the gene present. An albino carries two copies of the albino gene, and since albino is recessive, looks like an albino. A super pastel carries two copies of the pastel gene. Since pastel is co-dominant, it looks like a super pastel. A super pinstripe carries two copies of the pinstripe gene, but since pinstripe is dominant, it looks like a pinstripe.

Co-dominant traits are among the most common mutant color/pattern genes found in ball pythons. Recessive traits are less common, and dominant traits are (so far) pretty rare.

Spider is not a dominant gene, by the way. If it were dominant, homozygous animals that look like spiders would exist, but none have ever been produced. It is possible that spider is co-dominant with a lethal super form, or that something else is going on.

If you're still with me....
Now you know that there can be no such thing as a het for pastel, because all pastels ARE hets. If the animal from a pastel breeding looks normal, it IS normal.

You know that only traits that cause animals to look exactly the same, whether they carry one or two copies of a mutant gene, are dominant.

You know that animals that carry one copy of a recessive gene will look normal, so they should only be purchased from a trusted person (and having verifying paperwork is a good idea).

One final tip: When you see a '50% het for albino', what that actually means is that someone bred a het for albino to an animal that did not carry the albino gene. An animal that has one copy of a gene can pass on either the mutant gene, or the normal copy of the same gene that it also carries. As a result, about 50% of its offspring will have the mutant gene, and the other 50% will have the normal gene.
Since recessive traits that are heterozygous produce an animal that looks normal, you cannot tell which babies inherited the gene, and which did not. So a "50% het for albino" doesn't have half the gene, it has a 50% chance of carrying the gene, and a 50% chance of not carrying (being completely normal). 50% refers to the odds that the animal has the mutant gene. Once it is bred to another het or to an albino, it will become clear whether the gene is present--it will either produce albinos, which verifies it carries the gene, or it will not produce any albinos, which means it probably doesn't carry the gene.

Once the gene is proven to exist, it becomes '100% het for albino', or a 'proven het for albino'.

If all of that is FAR too confusing, don't worry. Start small, with a morph that you like, and learn how that morph's genetics work. You can learn the rest as you go. :)

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worldofballpythons.net is a great place to start out they have everything on there that can teach you about the genectics and if you breed 1-1 what the outcome would be like say if you bred a pastel x pastel you would possibly end up with a super pastel and a couple pastels and normals just depends on how many eggs you end up with and what kind of odds you get. :bow: :gj:

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Originally Posted by Austin C

Het refers to recessives.

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A common misconception.

Heterozygous refers to a snake's genotype, where the alleles at a particular locus are not the same. It has nothing to do with whether the traits associated with those alleles are dominant/recessive/incomplete dominant/whatever

A pastel is a heterozygote and a super pastel is a homozygote. Since the pastel trait is incomplete dominant, the phenotypes for the two previous genotypes look different.

A note on what mainbutter said:

What the ball python industry calls 'co-dominant' is technically 'incomplete dominance', so they're the same thing.

Also, what the reptile industry commonly calls 'albino' is actually 'amelanism'.