Question

I was just wondering a few things, I never stop thinking. Why is it ok to keep a snake on paper? He would not live on paper in the wild, I am not trying to hurt feelings or put anyone down, I just do not understand how it can be done. I would never keep my horses in tile, it is just not the way God wanted the animals to live. My thoughs are if you love something and you must keep it as a pet, make it's home as natural as possible. Also, tubs? How is that humane? Just wondering the thinking behind it all.

And on a side note, was at Petco trying to get some more snake stuff, there is a poor baby BP with a stuck shed, my boys are so upset. they want to buy all three and bring them home. We can't at the moment, but it is tempting.

I sort of feel similar. I'm not into the whole plastic tub housing and newspaper thing. I like my setup to be aesthetically pleasing, and like to believe the snake appreciate it as well.
There is pros and cons for both I guess.

I understand what you are thinking. Ok so lets get emotion out of the way and look at logic. Royal (Balls) are from Africa and live in scrub and savanna some into light forest depending on where in the range they are from. much of the savannah is hard packed clay dry and rock hard. paper is just a substitute to that, likely a close one. Wood chips are not a very natural substrate if we look at wild environments but generate a similar result to dry clay with tough grasses.

The other thing to keep in mind many of the animals have never been on natural clay and have no experience with it. The local terrain is not something instinct will dictate at all anyway it is something of a moot point.

One of the things we as diligent keepers do is to create a captive environment that simulates the natural habitat. The way you are looking at tubs is not looking though a snakes eyes. Tubs basically are a hide. There is no up so they are them selves a den a place of safety. Royals spend much of the time in the wild under things in burrows and generally in deep dark places what ever the opportunity presents. A tub is just that.

Many whom have tubs have racks little drawers where they live. Each little drawer has a spot where some light comes down and a warmer end and a cooler end. This is basically a burrow. Most breeders have no hides they don't need one the snake is in a hide a big plastic one. In the wild they will stay in a burrow until the residents are eaten and they have digested them and move on to the next or until the food and or water runs out. In tubs the snake has water and food there is no need to leave.

Tanks and naturalistic enclosures simulate terrane with multiple small, tiny hides. There is a different range of behaviour in them over tubs as the snake tends to display hunting and exploring responses but that does not mean that it is in humane to use tubs it is just different.

I have friends in Germany whom use bioactive systems and could and do (teasingly) say the same for the way I keep my snakes they have live plants large enclosures and bugs and such in them in a careful balance to generate a live environment. It requires a huge investment and a very deep understanding of everything that is there. life cycles of bugs to plants everything must be right. It is simply beyond most people in resources, time and education. The logic you are using says that this is the only humane way to keep royals but the thousands of dollars and years of experience is hard to come by.

There are very few hard and fasts in the hobby and the type of enclosure makes little difference to the health and well being of the snake. It is the keeper that is key not the enclosure. A diligent keeper will set up a system that provides the proper environment. Where that is does not matter Tub tank or otherwise. One is not better or worse just different each presents different problems and need different solutions. The ingenuity and care of the keeper make the difference the enclosure is just where the snake stays.

Well, the way I see it if your BP was captive born and raised then it never knows what the wild is like. In the wild they have to live in burrows and don't have their food falling from the sky or handed to them the same day every week. They probably have bugs all over them and deal with heat changes. Tell me how a tub is inhumane when I am giving them clean water, a clean hide spot and clean ground to live on all the time. The temps and necessary humidty level are spot on so how can that be bad?

I didn't mention I have snakes in a rack, in a single tub, in an aquarium, in a side turned aquarium, in commercial enclosures and a custom designed and built enclosure. I keep naturalistic looking enclosures and newspaper stark ones. I am not one whom has tried one method and guesses about others I have and use many. I like things about all and dislike things about all.

I really want to set up a bioactive system but am still quite intimidated by that and need lots more knowledge and not to keep killing my house plants before I try.

So I guess you are building a termite mound in your home? :tongue2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Don

So I guess you are building a termite mound in your home? :tongue2:

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If this post is an honest question it deserves an honest useful answer. If this post is a humane group fishing it deserves an intelligent considered answer. Your post is neither.

So to you people who have fake plants and branches for them to climb on little water falls ect.... Do you really think in the wild aka the plains of Africa they climb trees and plants and have little water falls with a bed of Cyprus lol. Not trying to sound mean or like a smart *#€
But like some of the above have stayed they live in a hot dry climate. It dosnt rain every day so there's not streams readily available to soak in... Africa has a dry season and a wet season. So Our tub set ups sound pretty ok lol

Hi,

Just bear in mind the natural world you praise so much also lets them get eaten, injured and sick. :cool:

It is not always a case of replicating the natural environment being the best thing - and that's not taking into acount the impossibility of it unless your enclosure is the size of Africa and incliudes exact copies of the climatic and other conditions.

Just make sure you give the snake what it needs to flourish and it really won't care about the rest. :gj:


dr del

Like kitedemon, I also have different types of housing for my snakes. No mater what we do we can't simulate their exact native habitat (nor in some cases would we want to like dr del points out). Its our responsibility as their caregiver to meet their needs as accurately as possible. That means clean water, proper heat and humidity, a safe place to hide, and healthy food. Everything else is just cosmetic. My snakes don't seem to care about them being pleasing to the eye. As long as their needs are met to the best of my ability then I don't particularly care if they look showy.

My horses are not on tile but they are behind electrified fences, eat grain, and occasionally alfalfa. They have man made shelter from the rain, and are ridden as often as possible. They have great care and are quite content but their lives don't even resemble the life of wild horses.

Just my :twocents:

To add on to del's point, our own "natural" environment doesn't include heating and air conditioning, and it's true we could probably survive without it pretty easily, but I know that if some alien was trying to keep me as a pet, I'd rather be in a temperature controlled place than one that had the extreme highs and lows of the real world.

Natural isn't always better.

To the OP, so you truly believe that in the wild, ball pythons live in tanks, exposed to everyone who wants to look at them instead of hidden away in a termite mound, on crushed up bark instead of hard clay, being picked up and carried around by loud primates instead of left strictly alone... I don't know where you're getting your info.

Your picture shows your snake on carpet. How is that natural? Not one bit of how you keep your snake is natural, nor is it somehow more pleasing to the animal.

Newspaper is clean and smooth, like fairly smooth clay in a termite mound. The plastic bin holds in humidity, like the natural environment of termite mounds. The racks are dimly lit and very private, just like their hiding spots in the wild.

It's fine if you want to keep your animal in whatever artificial environment. But don't try to diss how others keep their pets. There's nothing more 'natural and right' about you keeping a snake in a tank and letting your kids carry it about than my snakes in their racks being handled as little as possible. You don't see me posting against letting kids grab up snakes and carry them around, or putting snakes on *gasp* artificial carpet. Our pets are in an artificial environment by being kept as pets. All we can do is try to make them as stress-free as possible and as healthy as possible. If you do it in a tank with repti-bark or I do it in a tub, as long as the animal has PROPER humidity, heat, fresh water and food... it doesn't particularly matter.

Keepers should always think of what the ANIMAL needs first, not what they THINK they would like if THEY were in a cage. You are human. He's a snake. He wants totally different things than you do.

I see people complain ALL the time that they've set up this gorgeous huge tank, complete with tons of hide spots and plants etc etc. Then they find the ball python only hides inside the deepest spot he can cram into. That's what HE wants. Not what the human keeper wants. They don't parade around on display because their instinct tells them not to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

To the OP, so you truly believe that in the wild, ball pythons live in tanks, exposed to everyone who wants to look at them instead of hidden away in a termite mound, on crushed up bark instead of hard clay, being picked up and carried around by loud primates instead of left strictly alone... I don't know where you're getting your info.

Your picture shows your snake on carpet. How is that natural? Not one bit of how you keep your snake is natural, nor is it somehow more pleasing to the animal.

Newspaper is clean and smooth, like fairly smooth clay in a termite mound. The plastic bin holds in humidity, like the natural environment of termite mounds. The racks are dimly lit and very private, just like their hiding spots in the wild.

It's fine if you want to keep your animal in whatever artificial environment. But don't try to diss how others keep their pets. There's nothing more 'natural and right' about you keeping a snake in a tank and letting your kids carry it about than my snakes in their racks being handled as little as possible. You don't see me posting against letting kids grab up snakes and carry them around, or putting snakes on *gasp* artificial carpet. Our pets are in an artificial environment by being kept as pets. All we can do is try to make them as stress-free as possible and as healthy as possible. If you do it in a tank with repti-bark or I do it in a tub, as long as the animal has PROPER humidity, heat, fresh water and food... it doesn't particularly matter.

Keepers should always think of what the ANIMAL needs first, not what they THINK they would like if THEY were in a cage. You are human. He's a snake. He wants totally different things than you do.

I see people complain ALL the time that they've set up this gorgeous huge tank, complete with tons of hide spots and plants etc etc. Then they find the ball python only hides inside the deepest spot he can cram into. That's what HE wants. Not what the human keeper wants. They don't parade around on display because their instinct tells them not to.

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Well said

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk

I used to keep my ball pythons in tanks but I had one heck of a time with the heat and humidity. Eventually my snakes went off feed and started climbing the walls of the tank. I do not have snakes trying to escape from their enclosures anymore since moving them into tubs. I will never put a ball python in a tank again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ballpythonluvr

I will never put a ball python in a tank again.

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I agree 100%, tanks are for fish :)

How to match Nature for Ball python requirements as a pet

Heat :gj:
Water :gj:
Small dark place out of the elements and away from preditors :gj:
Occasional food item wonders by :gj:
Some kind of ground cover that absorbs pee and other liquids :gj:

Life is grand

It is just a simulated enviroment if you choose to simulate a burrow or small patch or large patch using appropriate materials. Nothing more or less.

Just a comment on termite mounds the field studies found less than 1% in termite mounds, that they live in them is a myth, termites live in them and they bite. :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

It is just a simulated enviroment if you choose to simulate a burrow or small patch or large patch using appropriate materials. Nothing more or less.

Just a comment on termite mounds the field studies found less than 1% in termite mounds, that they live in them is a myth, termites live in them and they bite. :P

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They're found in rodent burrows, correct?

Could you link to that study? Because all the video showing the locals hunting ball pythons, all but one was taken directly from termite mounds.

If a study was done that the people did not break open termite mounds at all, then no, they wouldn't find any in termite mounds. The pythons don't put out tiny signs declaring they live there.

I don't see any reason for local hunters to go right for termite mounds, find multiple snakes in the mounds, if they aren't naturally found there often. It'd be like hunters searching treetops for feral pigs.

Burrows yes I'll see if I can find it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

To the OP, so you truly believe that in the wild, ball pythons live in tanks, exposed to everyone who wants to look at them instead of hidden away in a termite mound, on crushed up bark instead of hard clay, being picked up and carried around by loud primates instead of left strictly alone... I don't know where you're getting your info.

Your picture shows your snake on carpet. How is that natural? Not one bit of how you keep your snake is natural, nor is it somehow more pleasing to the animal.

Newspaper is clean and smooth, like fairly smooth clay in a termite mound. The plastic bin holds in humidity, like the natural environment of termite mounds. The racks are dimly lit and very private, just like their hiding spots in the wild.

It's fine if you want to keep your animal in whatever artificial environment. But don't try to diss how others keep their pets. There's nothing more 'natural and right' about you keeping a snake in a tank and letting your kids carry it about than my snakes in their racks being handled as little as possible. You don't see me posting against letting kids grab up snakes and carry them around, or putting snakes on *gasp* artificial carpet. Our pets are in an artificial environment by being kept as pets. All we can do is try to make them as stress-free as possible and as healthy as possible. If you do it in a tank with repti-bark or I do it in a tub, as long as the animal has PROPER humidity, heat, fresh water and food... it doesn't particularly matter.

Keepers should always think of what the ANIMAL needs first, not what they THINK they would like if THEY were in a cage. You are human. He's a snake. He wants totally different things than you do.

I see people complain ALL the time that they've set up this gorgeous huge tank, complete with tons of hide spots and plants etc etc. Then they find the ball python only hides inside the deepest spot he can cram into. That's what HE wants. Not what the human keeper wants. They don't parade around on display because their instinct tells them not to.

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1st of all I was NOT being rude, I was asking a question. And NO my snake is not kept on carpet, the boys had him out and I took a picture. This animal has the best of both worlds, all is controlled to what the care sheet states. However, I do see your post as rudeness and that is what gives others bad impressions with some groups of people. I just wanted an answer so that I can learn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I understand what you are thinking. Ok so lets get emotion out of the way and look at logic. Royal (Balls) are from Africa and live in scrub and savanna some into light forest depending on where in the range they are from. much of the savannah is hard packed clay dry and rock hard. paper is just a substitute to that, likely a close one. Wood chips are not a very natural substrate if we look at wild environments but generate a similar result to dry clay with tough grasses.

The other thing to keep in mind many of the animals have never been on natural clay and have no experience with it. The local terrain is not something instinct will dictate at all anyway it is something of a moot point.

One of the things we as diligent keepers do is to create a captive environment that simulates the natural habitat. The way you are looking at tubs is not looking though a snakes eyes. Tubs basically are a hide. There is no up so they are them selves a den a place of safety. Royals spend much of the time in the wild under things in burrows and generally in deep dark places what ever the opportunity presents. A tub is just that.

Many whom have tubs have racks little drawers where they live. Each little drawer has a spot where some light comes down and a warmer end and a cooler end. This is basically a burrow. Most breeders have no hides they don't need one the snake is in a hide a big plastic one. In the wild they will stay in a burrow until the residents are eaten and they have digested them and move on to the next or until the food and or water runs out. In tubs the snake has water and food there is no need to leave.

Tanks and naturalistic enclosures simulate terrane with multiple small, tiny hides. There is a different range of behaviour in them over tubs as the snake tends to display hunting and exploring responses but that does not mean that it is in humane to use tubs it is just different.

I have friends in Germany whom use bioactive systems and could and do (teasingly) say the same for the way I keep my snakes they have live plants large enclosures and bugs and such in them in a careful balance to generate a live environment. It requires a huge investment and a very deep understanding of everything that is there. life cycles of bugs to plants everything must be right. It is simply beyond most people in resources, time and education. The logic you are using says that this is the only humane way to keep royals but the thousands of dollars and years of experience is hard to come by.

There are very few hard and fasts in the hobby and the type of enclosure makes little difference to the health and well being of the snake. It is the keeper that is key not the enclosure. A diligent keeper will set up a system that provides the proper environment. Where that is does not matter Tub tank or otherwise. One is not better or worse just different each presents different problems and need different solutions. The ingenuity and care of the keeper make the difference the enclosure is just where the snake stays.

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Thank you, your answers are very helpful!!

Oh well MY post is rude... but you can basically imply that if someone uses newspaper it's not right, and that's not rude? I used the exact same attitude that you yourself used. Without going into some religious aspect of how "God" intended snakes to live.

If you take it as rude if someone disagrees with you in the same manner you posted, that's your issue, not mine.