I suck at breeding mice?

I'm having problems getting my mice to actually breed. I've had a lot of cannibalism between the breeders and of course babies. I've noticed it usually seems to be the male that dies. I have auto watering set up along with a water bottle as a back up because I thought they weren't drinking but I have had to refill water bottles frequently. I have been feeding Doggy Bag Dog food and I know it's working for my rats no problem but my mice aren't taking to it maybe? I breed in medium litter pans and have tried anything from 1.2 to 1.5 and rarely have any success... any suggestions?

I had some cannibalism too but I feed off any moms that eat babies. Since culling my collection down quite a bit I have not had any cannibalism for the past few rounds of litters.

Dog food isn't preferred for any rodent breeding IMO. Lacking stuff or too much of other
things can cause cannibalism. Too much fat or protein or not enough can cause cannibalism from what I've read.

Lack of water can also cause cannibalism but it sounds like you have that figured out.

Wish I could help more! I'm hoping to convert the last of my stubborn mice eaters soon and get rid of mice entirely. I prefer rats in every regard.

Regards,

B

I wish I had more options other than dog food but for the drive to get rodent feed and also the cost of it, I'd be spending more to breed than to just buy... Is there maybe something I can supplement with the doggy bag? Peanuts? Sunflower seeds?

I had problems with mice and ASF's on Doggy Bag which is not the case with rats.

I tried feeding Innova dog food and have not had any problems with the mice and ASF's perhaps because it is a higher quality food.

The clerk at Tractor Supply said he wouldn't feed Doggy Bag to his worst enemy. The rats do fine on it but it really is garbage.

I'd try something different.

I order Native Earth 4018 from nationalpetpharmacy.com They have flat rate $5 shipping. I ordered 200lbs of feed and it was still $5 to ship! That makes it around $20 for 40lbs of TOP NOTCH feed. You might want to consider that.

Regards,

B

Keep in mind you could also of gotten mice that were inbred for generations. When this happens they will not breed and just develop tumors and or die.

Mine have hit the peak and i been feeding off all the breeder males and holding back the younger ones. I have 5 new groups going but havent produced yet.

What's been said before...
I don't use dog food for rodents, I use a quality rodent block, no supplements at all. On the rare occasion that I do get a cannibal mouse, she becomes a snack for a lizard or snake.

Also, you didn't mention if it was a new or established colony.... Mouse colonies can take time to get going. Sometimes a couple of months. Just sorting through the females that will accept other females and males can be time consuming. ONce you get a colony well established, don't change anything. If you need a new female or male in the colony, grow one up from the colony, or you could be back in the same boat.

As for keeping "new" blood going, try to get you rodent stock from different breeders... Less tumors and deformities.... I get new blood every few months just to keep from inbreeding too much. Usually, a tub of 5-8 females to one of my males.

Thanks for all the input I appreciate it all. The Native Earth food is definitely worth looking into, around 25.00 for a 40# bag of actual rodent food isn't too bad especially if it's shipped to my door. As for the colonies I've tried everything from starting from weaners as a group, or even bringing in a newbie and it all has seemed to fail me. So far from what I've gotten as responses the food is the problem. I may just get a small bag of rodent food and try with a small group see if it works then jump up to the big bags....

You don't have them in the same room with rats do you? A lot of people have bad luck breeding mice in close quarters to rats. However this is not always the case. Just sometimes fixes things. Wasn't sure if you breed rats too.

I do breed rats and they are in the same room. I have heard different stories that it makes no difference, if they are bred together and used to each other's scent from the beginning that it makes no difference. The breeders I've gotten mice from also breed rats in the same room as well. So it's something else to try, moving them out of the rat room...

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Keep in mind you could also of gotten mice that were inbred for generations. When this happens they will not breed and just develop tumors and or die.

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This is 100% false. Mice that are inbred and selected properly, are the best mice available. In the show arena, if your mice are NOT inbred, they generally do not do well in the arena, because you cannot improve an animal without inbreeding. Outcrossing, or bad selection of stock, is what causes problems, NOT inbreeding. :)

rats and mice in same room wont cause them to not breed. I do them in same room and they breed no problems. My rats are popping out rats like crazy right now. I havent ordered rats or mice in 2 years which is nice. But i will need to get about 200 live mice here shortly to get new groups going and what not.

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Originally Posted by Rhasputin

This is 100% false. Mice that are inbred and selected properly, are the best mice available. In the show arena, if your mice are NOT inbred, they generally do not do well in the arena, because you cannot improve an animal without inbreeding. Outcrossing, or bad selection of stock, is what causes problems, NOT inbreeding. :)

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Then explain why i have a stock of 500 mice same genes past 5 years and this year they arent doing squat. Same food,same water and same room temps nothings changed in 5 years. Rats are fed same food and same water and drop litter after litter non stop

I truly believe mice that are inbred too far will not breed as well. Till this year i was producing 500 mice a month and be lucky to produce 100 a month right now.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Then explain why i have a stock of 500 mice same genes past 5 years and this year they arent doing squat. Same food,same water and same room temps nothings changed in 5 years. Rats are fed same food and same water and drop litter after litter non stop.

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It must be global warming. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Then explain why i have a stock of 500 mice same genes past 5 years and this year they arent doing squat. Same food,same water and same room temps nothings changed in 5 years. Rats are fed same food and same water and drop litter after litter non stop

I truly believe mice that are inbred too far will not breed as well. Till this year i was producing 500 mice a month and be lucky to produce 100 a month right now.

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It could be tons of things, including inbreeding in your case. Why would inbreeding be bad in your case? Because I highly doubt that you select your mice based on long term health, since you will probably feed them before they reach a year old or so. Therefore you may not have any idea what kind of health problems you are breeding in. Mice that are poorly, or randomly bred, can develope health problems in your lines, and cause trouble.

Now, is that the case here? I don't know, but it certainly could be.

Inbreeding itself does not cause health problems. If you inbreed mice WITH health problems, of course there will be more problems. If you inbreed mice without health problems, then you won't have issues.

The key is selection. Inbreeding is how you get any breed of any animal. If you've ever owned, or shopped around for a yellow lab puppy, you will find that hip displasia is a word that's thrown around a lot. If a breeder selects the puppies properly and breeds only the ones who have no history of the problem, there should be no problems. If the breeder is irresponsible in their selection, and breeds randomly, without the health in mind, then the dogs are all more likely to have serious health problems in the future, since the problems are not tracked.

This is comparable to cancer, specifically mammary tumors (some of the most common cancers) in mice.

My mice for instance, have no history of tumors at all. I have had a grand total of 2 tumors in my lines ever, and the mice were culled out of the breeding program, and their lines carefully monitored. The same thing happens with tail kinks in mice. They are generally not a problem for the mouse, but if you don't select away from it, then you're just going to get more tails with kinks.

Inbreeding is how you select for favorable traits in mice. Breed parents together that you like and are healthy, then select the best of the offspring to breed back to the parents to get more traits that you like, and more healthy mice. Of course if the best mice from the litter have a health problem, then you skip over them and select the next best pups from the litter. :)

I hope that helps explain, I think I rambled a lot there. :weirdface



EDIT: Also, are you feeding them food with GMO corn or soy beans in it? This could explain your sudden lack of litters. It has been proven to increase the number of sterile male and female mice after many generations.

I have over 350 breeding rats in with 1500-2000 mice....with dozens of hamsters, with hundreds of ASF's, with Guinea Pigs....
That's a myth.

As for rodent block, if you do your homework, you can find them cheap. Find a local breeder, farm store, or even a mill. Buy in bulk, split it with someone if you have to.
I buy in bulk, usually for .30-.34 a pound.

I think the whole inbreeding thing is a 50/50 fact/fiction issue. I have 115 colonies of mice, a mix of totally inbred, to lab mice, that I've paid up to $15 a piece for. I bring in new stock every few months, just to mix up my lines. But, 90% of the time, it's daughters and grand-daughters being bred back to a single male, or an offspring of that male...
When I see a colony starting to go south, I just start looking for a reason why. I don't change their diet at all, never in my mice.
If your numbers have fallen that much over the course of time, I'd be doing some serious investigating!

I would like to comment in regards to "new blood." I have four colonies of mice and when it is time for "new blood" I take babies from one colony and add to another colony. I have never had a problem with a colony accepting new babies as long as the babies still have their eyes closed. This is easiest if you have colored babies so you don't accidentally feed off your new breeding stock. It has worked well for me and avoids any problems with bringing in new blood. If all of your colonies are related, you can also buy fuzzies from the pet store to add. Good luck!!

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Originally Posted by jasbus

If your numbers have fallen that much over the course of time, I'd be doing some serious investigating!

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That is a serious drop in production. 80% drop in production. . . Are they too hot?

My guess is the groups are getting old, and its hot out. Room stays 82 all year but even at 82 in winter time they were breeding fine.

this is what their fed.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y14...eding/KENT.jpg

Im also working on my male problem. I start wit 2.6 and after few months the males get heavy as hell. Each week during cleaning i take males out to leave just 2 per group and put the extras in a feeding bin to be fed later on to snakes.

I was thinking of trying to add Mazuri Hog Pellets into the Kent Rodent Feed. But not sure if its worth $15 25lbs bag of the hog feed.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

rats and mice in same room wont cause them to not breed. I do them in same room and they breed no problems. My rats are popping out rats like crazy right now. I havent ordered rats or mice in 2 years which is nice. But i will need to get about 200 live mice here shortly to get new groups going and what not.

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Like I said. It doesn't happen with everyone, but there is a very large population of people that it DOESN'T work for. They have moved mice colonies in the same room, breeding stops, and moved them back out for it to start up again just fine. Rats are a natural predator of mice and sometimes this instinct kicks in. But as mentioned, it does not always.

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Originally Posted by azmodane

I do breed rats and they are in the same room. I have heard different stories that it makes no difference, if they are bred together and used to each other's scent from the beginning that it makes no difference. The breeders I've gotten mice from also breed rats in the same room as well. So it's something else to try, moving them out of the rat room...

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You should at least try it for a month or two, because your mice may be smelling the rats and nervous about it. A LOT of people have this issue but then again like you and I both mentioned a LOT of people do NOT have this issue.

Hey Rich,
HAve you tried a lower protein diet? 23% is really high for mice. Do you get a lot of hot spots on your mice? I use a base of 19% for my breeders, and if I see any hot spots, I drop down to a 50/50 mix of ADM 19% and Mazuri 6F 16%, hoping for a good mix. That's the only time I ever change the diet on mice. And, it's very rare that I have to do that with the 19%.
Back in the days of my youth, when I was young and dumb, but thought I knew everything... I used dog food. Never even thought about why some of my mice were scaley and partially bald. A high protein diet will over work their kidneys, causing them to drink more to cool off. Same idea in birds, a "hot" diet of high protein will make the system work overtime...

I think Kent actually makes a 19%...

when i first started breeding i was using Mazuri 6f but at 25$ a 50lbs bag its not worth it. After 6 months i went to kent and have been for a long time now. Just past few months they aren't producing. My take is seasonal change. The kent matches up well with mazuri besides the protein.

And what you mean Hot Spots.

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Originally Posted by jasbus

I think Kent actually makes a 19%...

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Probably in hog feed. I talked to feed store and what i get is only kent rodent feed they got.

I could be wrong on the 19% Kent. I thought I saw it once.
Anyway, hotspot are usually behind the head and along the spine. Looks like the hair is falling out and they scratch around it alot....
Essentially the same in dogs with light coat colors. It's a good sign that the diet is off. In rodents, usually mice, on high protein, they need more water than usual, and in turn, makes the kidney's work harder.
I had a friend who used to do diabetes testing for a lab on mice... Learned way more than I needed to, but then again, I'm a geek anyway...:D

Defiantly no bald patches on them at all. I usually get one with a tumor once a month that is a old female. Never had it with my males or the babies once.

I do run into over crowding since only hatchlings here eat mice and one adult female. So when things get crowded im sure that affects production. Which is why im doing male control right now.


https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._6033874_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._7557132_n.jpg

Is that a typical mouse tub for you? It is overcrowded, so, yes you are right, it will have a huge effect on breeding. Especially if your males are too busy pushing each other around instead of paying attention to the ladies.
Other than that, your stock looks real good...

Yes thats my normal stock when i cant sell them fast enough and with only one female eatign breeder size mice it sucks at times.

I have 30-40 mice i need to feed off. I been taking each tub back down to 2.6 and getting there slowly. And im noticing smell is going down slowly with less males musking.

A great addition to any mouse food is a big ole bag of oats from the feed store. 50bs is $8-$15, so it's not terribly expensive, but it's the main part of most show breeder and pet owner diets, and for good reasons. :)

What type of oats. My feed store has like 3 aisles full of food from rodents to horses.

How do you supplement the oats, on the hoppers or on the bedding. Never heard of using oats for them.

Any kind of oats, whole, rolled or steam crimpled are all fine. :)

You can put them in the bedding, I don't think the hopper would hold them. It will give them something interesting to do/eat, and might get their 'spirits' up again. That, and reducing the crowding a but with your next big feed-off should help. :)

There are some foods that actually increase the libidos of mice! But I can't remember them for the life of me. . .
I do know that dandelion greens are great for nursing mothers, though. I'll need to find what types of foods it was that makes them more horny. :rofl:

I started feeding them cheerios. As sole ingredient is oats. They love them and see how that works. I wont keep feeding this as its expensive food for them but will get the big bag for them.

Also ended up getting 200 mice today of new stock/blood. Got them all in 60qt tub in QT for a while to be sure its okay to start putting them into groups in mouse racks near the already established stock