Please Help! Snake dies while eating...

I just found one of my adult normal ball pythons dead with a regurged, partially digested rat???
I feed a large group yesterday and everyone else is fine. I buy my frozen thawed rodents from the same place everytime.
This is the second snake I've lost this way...both snakes have been 3-5yr old unwanted pets that I have taken in.
The first snake I'd had for over a year and would go for a few months at a time with not eating. I assumed when this happend there was something wrong with the snake.
I've had the second snake for a little over 6 months and was eating great prior to this.
The first time it happend I thought it was something wrong with the snake, but to have 2 do this in less than 3 months is crazy.
Does anyone have any thoughts/suggestions or similar situations?

I am probably not going to be much help here but someone will hopefully chime in.

Are you sure the rats were up to good temps and not still frozen some??

Or are u sure u didnt cook the rats? How do u prepare them...where do u get them?

My guess is that the snake aspirated fluid when it regurgitated the rat, and potentially suffocated on that. While snakes can regurgitate, it's very tough on them, and considering that the windpipe (aka glottis) is located on the floor of the snake's mouth, it's relatively easy for one to accidentally breathe in some digestive fluids while in the process of "throwing up" a meal.

Very sorry for your loss. :(

I buy from rodentpro and I slow thaw them in warm water.
Before I feed them I check to make sure that they are not still frozen or cold.

Hi,

Couple of thoughts.

Can you describe your quarantine proceedures in regards to these two animals and to your existing collection.

Have you had a PM done on either snake? ( bag it in the fridge before taking to the vets do not freeze it.

What size were both rats and what size were the snakes.

Can you tell us your temps and how and where you are measuring them?

Do these rats smell when they are thawed?


dr del

Slow thaw is great but how are you heating them up? Rodents should be 95-100 degrees when you are feeding. It sounds to me like the rat was still cold internally. More info. I used to feed F/T and the rodents need considerable time under a 140 degree blow dryer before I would feed them to my snakes. I get them to about 105-110 and then head towards the tub to feed. If you don't heat them properly this way their heads and guts can stay very cool still. 50-70 easily according to my IR temp gun. That's why I heat them with a blow dryer before feeding. It takes quite awhile to get a whole rat to the right temperature.

Regards,

B

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Originally Posted by Simple Man

Slow thaw is great but how are you heating them up? Rodents should be 95-100 degrees when you are feeding. It sounds to me like the rat was still cold internally. More info. I used to feed F/T and the rodents need considerable time under a 140 degree blow dryer before I would feed them to my snakes. I get them to about 105-110 and then head towards the tub to feed. If you don't heat them properly this way their heads and guts can stay very cool still. 50-70 easily according to my IR temp gun. That's why I heat them with a blow dryer before feeding. It takes quite awhile to get a whole rat to the right temperature.

Regards,

B

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This is exactly why I dont feed F/T. When you have 25+ snakes this process takes WAY too long. I just simply feed live and keep a careful eye out. Now feeding takes me maybe 30min-an hour.

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Originally Posted by rat160

this is exactly why i dont feed f/t. When you have 25+ snakes this process takes way too long. I just simply feed live and keep a careful eye out. Now feeding takes me maybe 30min-an hour.

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x2:d

To thaw i'll start out with little hotter than room temp. Then drain and refill with warmer water. Finaly, repeat but refilling with water around 95 degrees letting stand for a couple minutes and towel dry before feeding. This takes around 3 hours. I clean cages, water and organize my room while the rats thaw.

"Quarantined animals" get a seperate location for at least a month before introduction to the colony. The first snake that passed came from another breeder she was in possesion of for a few years and today all of her reptiles are healthy. The second, came from a friend who had it as a pet for many years. Both snakes were active but one ate often while the other would go months between meals.

I get my frozen rodants threw RodentPro. I've never had any promblems with them.

I bagged the fella that has passed and have an appointment with my Exotic Animals vet tomorrow morning.

I have a vast collection of Ball Pythons and can only hope that this unfortunate event is a natural occurance.

Thank You Everyone...

Qt process is supposed to be 90 days. However doesn't sound like it contributed to your issue. Hope yo figure it out.

Sent from my DROID2 GLOBAL using Tapatalk

95 degrees won't get the rodents hot enough IMO. When I was doing F/T I had the water at almost 120 degrees and they still needed to blow dry at 140 degrees to get them over 100 for more than a few brief moments. I'm going to reaffirm my original guess that the rodent was too cold internally. I would try a different process if you are going to keep feeding F/T. Sorry to hear about your loss and best of luck moving forward.

Regards,

B

Wow I have never heard of anything like this before. I am so sorry for your loss :(

I agree on internal temps.

I've never thought much about my thawing method. I let the rats thaw at room temp for a few hours, then put them under hot tap water for 15 minutes or so. I hit them with a hair dryer to heat the head and I'm good to go. Or so I thought. Imagine my dismay one evening when one of my best eaters struck, coiled, started swallowing and then spit out the rat. I reheated it with the hair dryer and no interest. I decided to try heating one more time, and while massaging the rat and turning it over, I moved the hair dryer by accident, and was shocked to find the center of the rat felt cold. Not cool, but truly cold. I borrowed my hubby's temp gun, and discovered all the rats I thought were ready to go, were actually still partially frozen in the stomach area. :O

I began leaving the rats under a thin, running stream of hottest tap water for a full 30 minutes before I towel dry them, then I use the hair dryer to give a final all over heating. Since I started this new method, I've had many picky eaters become voracious feeders. I don't know how I didn't make one of my babies sick, but I have no doubt in time I would have done just that or worse.

So, if for no other reason than peace of mind, double check those temps before feeding the f/t. They should be at least 100 before offering.

Gale

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kara

My guess is that the snake aspirated fluid when it regurgitated the rat, and potentially suffocated on that. While snakes can regurgitate, it's very tough on them, and considering that the windpipe (aka glottis) is located on the floor of the snake's mouth, it's relatively easy for one to accidentally breathe in some digestive fluids while in the process of "throwing up" a meal.

Very sorry for your loss. :(

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^This. This is the most plausible explanation to me. I've also lost an adult snake through re-gurgitation, and Kara explained this to me at the time.

I brought the ball python to my vet for an autopsy and samples are being sent away for research. Just precautionary measures. Thanks everyone for your input.

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Originally Posted by angllady2

I agree on internal temps.

I've never thought much about my thawing method. I let the rats thaw at room temp for a few hours, then put them under hot tap water for 15 minutes or so. I hit them with a hair dryer to heat the head and I'm good to go. Or so I thought. Imagine my dismay one evening when one of my best eaters struck, coiled, started swallowing and then spit out the rat. I reheated it with the hair dryer and no interest. I decided to try heating one more time, and while massaging the rat and turning it over, I moved the hair dryer by accident, and was shocked to find the center of the rat felt cold. Not cool, but truly cold. I borrowed my hubby's temp gun, and discovered all the rats I thought were ready to go, were actually still partially frozen in the stomach area. :O

I began leaving the rats under a thin, running stream of hottest tap water for a full 30 minutes before I towel dry them, then I use the hair dryer to give a final all over heating. Since I started this new method, I've had many picky eaters become voracious feeders. I don't know how I didn't make one of my babies sick, but I have no doubt in time I would have done just that or worse.

So, if for no other reason than peace of mind, double check those temps before feeding the f/t. They should be at least 100 before offering.

Gale

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I have to agree with simpleman and angllady on this one. Although I don't feed F/T, I do know how long it can take to properly thaw and warm things and a lot of people really don't realize just how long this process can take. By the thawing/warming method you have described using I'm going to go with this being a contributing factor of the death along with the possibility of the asphyxiation/drowning from regurgitation. It is possible if the rat was still possibly/partially frozen that it led to the regurgitation and possible asphyxiation together. This is just speculation of course but, I stick to my original thoughts on the thawing process. Even a small animal like a rat can take a good while to fully thaw and then even longer to bring up to the proper feeding temp without overdoing it and cooking it. I would definitely adjust your method regarding this area to be safe.
Either way though, I am very sorry to hear of your loss and hope you can find an answer and solution soon!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rat160

This is exactly why I dont feed F/T. When you have 25+ snakes this process takes WAY too long. I just simply feed live and keep a careful eye out. Now feeding takes me maybe 30min-an hour.

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I have always fed f/t. My collection always fluctuates between 10 and 25, depending on the time of year. I thaw the rats while I'm cleaning and watering. Mine typically only take about an hour to an hour and a half in hot water, being changed 3 to 4 times throughout the process. Always squeeze the midsection and head to feel for cold spots.

Wow, I have never heard of something like this. Thank you for the useful post for others and myself to learn from. I am deeply sorry for your losses.

I usually thaw out my rodents in a ziplock bag the night before feeding in the refrigerator. The following night I heat up the head for a minute or so and the body for a bit with a hair dryer. I have never checked for temps on the actual rodent.

This was very eye opening and will make me change my thawing process.

Frozen or thawed,.. I use a heating pad with a timer. Just so I don't forget while I'm off doing other stuff.

Hi,
Is there a good thermometer to get to check the temp of F/T mice? and what do you do to check it is it inserted to the mice mouth?

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Originally Posted by Boomstick

I buy from rodentpro and I slow thaw them in warm water.
Before I feed them I check to make sure that they are not still frozen or cold.

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I feed exclusively f/t. I have a dozen animals, I've had them 3+ years, most of them have eaten nothing by f/t in that time, including some slightly overcooked, some slightly under-thawed, and some slightly questionable smelling rodents, and this has never happened to me.

And what you're describing is actually a pretty ideal way to thaw any sort of meat. I really DON'T think the problem is your thawing.

I will say that the only time I did have a regurge was because of a temperature drop followed by a temperature spike in my baby enchi's cage after a very large meal. She was tiny, she'd just eaten three hoppers---she's a huge eater, she always wants more--- and I think she would have been fine, except that I unplugged her tank to vacuum, and then forgot to plug it back in. And it was winter, so the temps in there probably got down to the mid-to-high sixties for 12 hours. And then I noticed that I'd done it, and plugged it back in, and the temps went back up to 95F.

And I think that was too much for cold blooded digestion to deal with. Maybe the mice began to rot before she could digest them? Anyway, she regurged. She didn't even regurge all of it---just the last two hoppers, of the three she'd eaten. So of course I freaked out and I didn't feed her for 21 days after that, which she HATED. Sorry, Maureen!

I've heard regurge can happen if the food starts to spoil before the snake can digest it, and that this is more likely to happen if the snake eats a very large meal?

How big of a meal was it?

After that, I'd think about temperature spikes in the housing, and then maybe just bad luck. Maybe you just had a couple sick animals? But I don't think feeding f/t is your problem.

And: I'm really sorry about your loss.

This happened to me with my very first ball python, and he was eating live prey. I'd fed him one week, and he ate that fine and if I remember correctly eliminated, then the next week he ate another prey. He died 1-2 days later with a regurg next to him and a green spot on his belly.

I'm still not sure what killed him (as my other snakes afterward did fine) but did yours have a green spot on its belly?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slashmaster

This happened to me with my very first ball python, and he was eating live prey. I'd fed him one week, and he ate that fine and if I remember correctly eliminated, then the next week he ate another prey. He died 1-2 days later with a regurg next to him and a green spot on his belly.

I'm still not sure what killed him (as my other snakes afterward did fine) but did yours have a green spot on its belly?

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He looked fine, normal color head to tail.

This is a really Interesting case.
Though I am truly sorry for your losses. There was a short time inbetween these two unfortunate deaths and I do have to attribute that to a variety of a couple things. I do think the internal temp of the rat could have effected things a bit, a cold spot would put the ball into shock because of the massive temp change in their bodies. I also think that because of the shock, the snake was frantic on regurging making aspiration more of a danger. I would get a necropsy done, I think that's the smartest thing to do. And I hope you find the answers you need.
I am sorry.

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