Trying out a new way of eating

So I am doing a new thing now. But first, a little back story and a rant.

My family has always struggled with weight, and they've tried diets, some have worked, but usually we get busy and go right back to eating like we used to. And it's so frustrating! I got sick of diets that promised ridiculous(dangerously ridiculous) fast results, they just never sit right with me. And paired with the fact that they basically are in it for their own gain("Oh only use my own sugar replacement for your desserts/buy the food I designed/only recipes in my books") and all that.

My parents are on one now, and this one works for them, but it's driving me absolutely nuts. It's completely strict to the point of it being ridiculous, the science is half bogus to me(really? You, an actress, figured out the secret to weight loss but no one else is catching on?) but you do lose weight--just not for the exact reasons she claims. The diet basically forces you to cut back on caleries without saying that's what it's doing(claiming any weight loss all in the secret good foods and funky foods and the right food mixes and timing and whatever) But the problem is because of this, the diet has no limit to what you eat--you don't count caleries, so who needs serving sizes! But like I said, the food mixing still almost guarantees you eat less than you would with a carb and a protein. BUT..if you cheat, even once, forget losing any weight at all. That's the catch, the rules are ridiculously strict.

But yeah, it works for them. They lose weight, they are being healthy, it's fine. It's just not for me. I like thinking of things on a more nutritional level(partially t hanks to owning reptiles and balancing their nutrition) and trying to eat BETTER foods, and getting more out of what I eat(sweet potatoes are awesome, ridiculous amount of nutrients. These things are banned in practically every diet. Just be careful on portions and don't eat it every day!)

Anyway during this diet my parents have been following her recipes which are mostly meat based. Just chunk after chunk of steak, pork, chicken, steak again, more steak, steak, burgers with no bun, etc. again and again!(okay, to be fair, it isn't so bad, but I just get sick of eating the same thing again and again, and my mom is a picky eater, so she picks the same recipes a lot) I live at home, so I've been eating with them, and I've just been getting sick off of so much meat! Don't get me wrong. I love a good steak. But it's gotten ridiculous. And honestly, I find that my favorite meals are a little lighter on meat. Instead of a big parmigiana chicken, I like alfredo with bits of chicken or shrimp. I like ceaser salad, etc.


So, I remembered back to when my friend had the exact opposite problem, when she tried to go vegetarian to support her boyfriend. She ALSO was a picky eater and pretty much ate nothing that gave her any protein! She kept going to the doctors from feeling ill because she was depriving herself of nutrients! She ended up going back to eating normal, but we talked about it, and if she ever went back, she'd probably not be full vegetarian, and maybe eat some chicken every week or two.


And honestly, that's what I'm sort of about to do now. I know veggies are good, and there are a lot of vegetables I just love(I have been snacking on roasted garlic artichokes and zucchini fries..delicious!!) but there are also meats I enjoy! I figured out there is actually a diet that fits this exact description called "flexitarian" which I think is a clever name, lol! Honestly, the nice thing about it is the diet itself is flexible--you don't have to just buy the book, just use any vegetarian diets, keeping in mind health(maybe switch out for whole wheat if it calls for white flour, etc.) and you can add meat every once in a while--some people have one meal a day with some meat, some people have it every other day, or just on weekends. And if you cheat and have a burger at lunch and you come home to chicken for dinner, that's cool, just try not to eat too much, and be good later. It's flexible and common sense. I like that a lot better, and it's easier to get around in life(you don't have to just sit and starve at a party, you get some options)


Plus, I've been obsessing over cooking lately, and this doesn't limit me as much as other diets do. I've already got like 50 vegetarian/semi vegetarian recipes bookmarked, so you can tell I'm SUPER excited!!


but yeah.. the plan..less meat, more veggies. Yummy food. Eat better! Right now my main goal is to be healthier--while many people link health and weight together, I know a lot of studies that show that they are not(skinny people who eat nothing but potato chips will be less healthy than heavy people who eat good nutritious vegetables and better give their bodies what it needs!) So health comes first for me, and weight will follow(probably right alongside health)

But if I don't lose weight quickly, I'm okay..I still feel confident that I will eventually, but I know that eating the right things is important, and I'll feel a lot better doing it!


I can say I haven't been under 200 pounds in several years now, and it would be super nice to see a 1 in place of that 2 someday. Honestly I like being curvy, but I'd like to be it at a more reasonable weight. 150 is my first goal, after that I may shoot for lower. But I would feel confident in myself if I can get to that size. Anyone who has any recipes or support is welcome to comment.. It's gonna be an interesting road ahead of me, and I'd like to think I can stick to a meal change like this. It sounds easy, and I'm hoping it will be, but it never hurts to have people there for you! I know I have been optimistic before, and had things crash and burn..but I am trying to keep myself driven and positive, so I don't slip back into old habits!

Sounds like you're on the right track to finding a balanced, healthy lifestyle that you can maintain.

A person can be "vegetarian" and still be completely unhealthy because they still choose junk food over wholesome foods. (I have a niece who is an example of this...she's been eating vegetarian for a couple years now, and has actually gained weight because she still snacks frequently on fried and packaged junk)

The key is whole foods...veggies, fruits, whole grains. If done correctly, plenty of protein can be taken in that way. But I'm with you in preferring some meat. So long as it's moderate portions, there's nothing wrong with eating meat of all sorts. (Again, we're talking fresh meats and not the nitrate-filled packaged junk) So yeah...whatever name you want to give that lifestyle...I think it's a great one to strive toward!

It sounds like your parents are doing some version of the Atkins diet. I tried that one. It does work if you're super careful and follow the plan strictly. And it can lead to some very painful side effects. I'll never do that one again! Plus, the moment you stop doing it, all the weight comes back faster than ever. :(

There's a sticky at the top of this forum with some great recipes. Also, another AWESOME resource is a site called SparkPeople. It's totally free...and has just about every tool and resource you can imagine for supporting weight loss efforts.

Good luck! And feel free to use the Journey Forum for blogging, venting, questions or whatever you need to help along the way!

good luck!

Well, first off, congratulations on wanting to get healthy, and also for realizing that those "fad" diets are something to steer clear of. I am currently an NCO in the Army, but have gotten my degree in Nutrition Science, and use that degree to help all my overweight soldiers (both in and outside of my unit) lose weight to meet the Army Standard.

Everything I have studied have shown that these "fad" diets are unhealthy, and eventually do more harm than good. They are much like the myth that diet soda is better than regular soda. Each are bad in their own way. Yes diet soda has less calories, and suger, but has a much higher aspartamene content. Aspartamene is something that causes your body to not process glucose (sugar) properly. A higher level of aspartamene in your system causes your body to retain more fat, so even though you are consuming less sugar and calories, you are actually getting heavier. Its crazy, but thats how these "fad" diets work. They promise one thing, but end up giving you something worse.

Here is something that one of my teachers said to me, "you can generally eat what you want and you can/will lose weight, as long as moderation, portion control, and variety are things that you constantly think about." Basically, you can enjoy a huge variety of foods, just watch how large the meals are. Try to stay away from all the sweets, and sodas, but you can definatly have a cheat day. Cheat days are completely neccessary to keep you motivated, and to keep you happy. I am very big into nutrition and weight lifting, which means I eat a lot of boring food, and the same foods over and over because I am trying to gain weight all the time, but even I have a cheat day once a week. I eat whatever looks/sounds good to me on that day. It keeps me sane. Changing your diet is such a lifestyle change, but it is something that if done, will make you so happy. It will take time to get right, and mistakes will be made, but as long as you are putting in a conscience effort, and mixing in good physical exercise, weight loss will happen. That 2 will be replace by a 1 before you know it.

Last little tip...eat 5 or 6 small meals throughout the day, this causes your matabalism to run 24/7 which in turn will burn more fat than if you ate only three good sized super healthy foods. Eat lots and lots of veggies, and fruit. Eat a reasonable amount of carbs, meats, and dairy. Keep your diet balanced, just like the food pyramid, and you can't go wrong. Like you said, get healthy to get fit. Thats how it is. . . do you think we had all these "fad" diets a thousand years ago? no way!! we just ate what we had, we were physicall, and we were happy. I wish you good luck in your path to weight loss, and a healthier happier you. If you need anything, let me know. . . I hope this helps.

:D Thanks!


I'm really truly enjoying this diet. It's forcing me to cook more often which means I don't get the instant gratification of getting food when I am not even that hungry. I have to be willing to make it and still want it when I'm done cooking.

This way of eating is so flexible too. I think it works for me because I never feel limited. I can eat almost any food, in moderation. I try to limit my meat intake, but if I am visiting my grandpa, it is OKAY if I eat a little bit of steak. I don't have to feel guilty about it. Because it doesn't feel like cheating I don't get the terrible "well it's already bad enough that I'm cheating, I might as well eat a little more while I'm at it/have dessert too"


I do have a SERIOUS sweet tooth, it's my favorite taste. Terrible for diets I know. But I've been researching low calorie desserts that are also high in nutrition. I've replaced sugar with more natural sweeteners(Like honey) and even though they are similar in calories, the fact that honey is more of a whole food and less processed makes it a lot harder for my body to absorb it. I recently made mini pumpkin pie turnovers. 3 pieces are 110 calories, but they are just the right size that I honestly only eat 1-2 when I do pick them up after a meal. The person who coined the term 'flexitarian' actually has a ton of really great snacks and treats that honestly I like better than what I ate before. Sometimes I forget I'm dieting, and it just seems like I should be gaining weight with this good food. :D Nothin' wrong with that!! Especially when I step on the scale later!

I have my calories set pretty high as I don't want to burn out on losing too fast. I'm losing a steady 2 pounds a week. I fluctuate occassionally, but it's nothing to worry about. And it's not even about the weight. I feel SO much healthier. I never feel that tired sluggish feeling when I eat these yummy meals.


I think a lot more about what's actually good for me, but since there are so many healthy foods, I also get to make it taste awesome. Instead of buying bland versions of junk food, I can make awesome food that's already super healthy and tastes the way it's SUPPOSED to :D


Working on pilates as well as cardio. Right now my cardio comes from jogging with the dog, but it's been SO HOT that I've been slacking.. When we finish moving I'll be able to use the treadmill too so I can run on hot/rainy days too!

May I ask what diet your parents are on? Seems like Atkins diet.

Diet has 2 80/20 rules.
-Weightloss is 80% diet 20% exercise.
-Eat right 80% of the time and the other 20% you can cheat a little.

Everyone will have different opinions on diets, exercise and weight loss. What works for one person may not work for another.

JADE_reptiles mentioned this

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do you think we had all these "fad" diets a thousand years ago? no way!!

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Me and my wife started looking into weight loss a while ago. My wife has tried many different types of diets, calorie counting and nothing seemed to work. I started to do a lot of research on hormones and how they affect a person. Once diving deep into this I started noticing that a common thing popped up, Estrogen. I asked my wife to see her doctor and to get some test done, come to find out she had estrogen dominance at the age of 24!!! The Doctor thought the best action to take is to inject even more hormones into my wife to sort out the imbalance. I thought that was nuts and we dove into more research on how to fix this problem. Eventually we switched all of our chemicals to more "green" type of products and changed the way we ate. (yes there is a point to this story!)

The way we changed our diet was going to more organic/natural types of foods. Fresh meats, fresh veggies, fresh fruit. We cut back on dairy products and stopped eating grains all together. (I stick to the 80/20 and my wife does 100%) If the food has been processed (packed into a box etc...) we stopped eating it. It is amazing how life changes once you start to cut out the junk from your diet, yes your feel bad the first couple weeks (your body craves what is bad) but your body will soon get over it and your have more energy!

Its been a month, any news/updates?

A really good diet, if your cutting down on meat for weight purposes. is to cut down on red meat. so like grilled chicken is really good and some pork. lots of fish is good. (im a vegetarian but i still eat fish)

My parents are on the Suzanne Somers diet, which seems fine and all, but they don't have all her books, and the diet doesn't really suggest eating a proper amount of greens to meat etc. etc. balance, at least in the books they own.

Plus, I swear the people who wrote these cookbooks were meat cooks. The rest of her recipes for veggies and anything else are bland or bitter, but all the meat is amazing. The only good thing I've had that they made was meat. The veggies they made from one of her recipes was so soaked in oil and there was basically no nutrition left in it. :O Yuck!

I've been LOVING this. I'm losing weight slow, but that's alright, because that's not what this is about. :) I've been FEELING better. My skin is clear and I have a healthier glow. Because of that, I even look much thinner, even when I've only lost twenty pounds. I'm not sick all the time anymore and I don't struggle as much to get things done throughout the day.

Because I haven't lost as much weight as them(though they ARE larger than me, by a lot, which I think is part of it, along with simply eating far less than normal and completely cutting out pasta which was a very common food here) my mom believes my diet is a failure and that I should switch to hers. She constantly claims that I am low on iron and protein despite the fact that I DO eat meat--as much as every other day, or as little as once every two weeks, but I do eat it. Along with beans, nuts, spinach, broccoli, etc. I am not nutrient deficient there. And when I eat a salad with fruit mixed in it, she warns me that THAT is the reason I haven't lost weight. Because of the fruit mixing thing her diet says.

It's frustrating, to be honest. She doesn't really respect my views because she thinks you are supposed to lose weight fast. I don't want it all to fall off, because I know if that happens, it's all too easy for it to jump right back on. Not to mention, extreme weight changes(higher OR lower) are ALMOST ALWAYS dangerous.

But it's been hard getting her to let me buy the veggies I want and need. She wonders how I can spend so much on vegetables, even though a weeks worth of my food is far less than hers. Because she still thinks of the veggies as side dishes. It's really frustrating at family occasions, when I'm not able to make my own food(school or something unavoidable) and I want to eat no meat. I'll end up with an entirely empty plate with a spoonful of broccoli, because that was all that was left for me. Then she'll tell my family I'm on a starvation diet and have them freak out about me. Uhhh...WHAT?! :O

I know, I shouldn't rely on them for my stuff--but the thing is, I never got to get my driver's license. My parents were too busy to teach me, and then I left for college where there were busses between buildings. Now I'm back home and I finally got my permit, but I still haven't been taught how to drive. My grandma says she will teach me, but it's all about finding time when my parents will take me over there to actually learn. Honestly I'll probably have to get my boyfriend to take me. Point of that is, I can't drive, and our grocery store is not in a safe walking distance. Every time I've been able to go to get my own veggies, it's been when a friend or Nathan took me. They usually go on their way home from work, so they don't generally pick me up. It just..makes it really difficult. They know I can't transport myself, they know I can't get my own food. Part of it IS mom trying to switch me to her diet, she always mentions how I'd do so much better on it. It's so weird, it feels like peer pressure the way she acts about it, all sneaky like. I know it's because she really thinks it's the best and because it's working for her--which I don't question, it really is. But she doesn't respect that it just didn't work for me. I got so dang sick doing it.


Actually in the past month, I have been unable to get any new fresh fruits and veggies. We have some frozen ones--frozen spinach and carrots. I have potatoes too, I like to cook some mushrooms and stuff the potato with the mushrooms. Thankfully Nathan's parents feed me good veggie food when I'm there, or else I'd really be out.


So.. I guess it's been going well, but there have been some struggles. I hope when I get my license soon and get this job(was offered a job at an aquarium store) things will look up. I'm not able to rely on them to help out with this, so I've got to get it all together myself.

But.. I have lost twenty pounds, and like I said, I feel great and happy.

One thing I LOVE about this, is I am able to choose more humane meat easier. When meat is a rare occasion, I can wait til I know I get organic, awesome fresh meat from healthy animals that weren't stuffed with antibiotics and fed nasty stuff. Honestly, the meat tastes better, and I feel a lot better. :)


This next summer I am planning on growing my own zucchini, since I have discovered it is my FAVORITE! :D Delicious!!

i pretty much did what you're doing now, but i started by completely cutting out fast food, and i stopped drinking soda, i've now cut out pork, and cut back on red meat and eat loads more veggies and fruits. i started at 220lbs and over the course of 5 months have lost 60 pounds and still going and am loving it! so mad props to you for getting on track with a healthy diet.

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Originally Posted by JADE_reptiles

Well, first off, congratulations on wanting to get healthy, and also for realizing that those "fad" diets are something to steer clear of. I am currently an NCO in the Army, but have gotten my degree in Nutrition Science, and use that degree to help all my overweight soldiers (both in and outside of my unit) lose weight to meet the Army Standard.

Everything I have studied have shown that these "fad" diets are unhealthy, and eventually do more harm than good. They are much like the myth that diet soda is better than regular soda. Each are bad in their own way. Yes diet soda has less calories, and suger, but has a much higher aspartamene content. Aspartamene is something that causes your body to not process glucose (sugar) properly. A higher level of aspartamene in your system causes your body to retain more fat, so even though you are consuming less sugar and calories, you are actually getting heavier. Its crazy, but thats how these "fad" diets work. They promise one thing, but end up giving you something worse.

Here is something that one of my teachers said to me, "you can generally eat what you want and you can/will lose weight, as long as moderation, portion control, and variety are things that you constantly think about." Basically, you can enjoy a huge variety of foods, just watch how large the meals are. Try to stay away from all the sweets, and sodas, but you can definatly have a cheat day. Cheat days are completely neccessary to keep you motivated, and to keep you happy. I am very big into nutrition and weight lifting, which means I eat a lot of boring food, and the same foods over and over because I am trying to gain weight all the time, but even I have a cheat day once a week. I eat whatever looks/sounds good to me on that day. It keeps me sane. Changing your diet is such a lifestyle change, but it is something that if done, will make you so happy. It will take time to get right, and mistakes will be made, but as long as you are putting in a conscience effort, and mixing in good physical exercise, weight loss will happen. That 2 will be replace by a 1 before you know it.

Last little tip...eat 5 or 6 small meals throughout the day, this causes your matabalism to run 24/7 which in turn will burn more fat than if you ate only three good sized super healthy foods. Eat lots and lots of veggies, and fruit. Eat a reasonable amount of carbs, meats, and dairy. Keep your diet balanced, just like the food pyramid, and you can't go wrong. Like you said, get healthy to get fit. Thats how it is. . . do you think we had all these "fad" diets a thousand years ago? no way!! we just ate what we had, we were physicall, and we were happy. I wish you good luck in your path to weight loss, and a healthier happier you. If you need anything, let me know. . . I hope this helps.

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Actually quite a bit of false info here, not trying to be mean but most of this has no merit.
First, how exactly does aspartame cause you to retain fat and not process glucose? are you saying it blunts insulin?
second, Does the size of the meal matter? and do you have any proof that 6 meals raises metabolism over 3?

My parents are on the Suzanne Somers diet, which seems fine and all, but they don't have all her books, and the diet doesn't really suggest eating a proper amount of greens to meat etc. etc. balance, at least in the books they own.

Plus, I swear the people who wrote these cookbooks were meat cooks. The rest of her recipes for veggies and anything else are bland or bitter, but all the meat is amazing. The only good thing I've had that they made was meat. The veggies they made from one of her recipes was so soaked in oil and there was basically no nutrition left in it. :O Yuck!

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just a question, what do you have against meat? any reason you chose to cut out this macro-nutrient? do you consume other complete proteins? like dairy or eggs?

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I've been LOVING this. I'm losing weight slow, but that's alright, because that's not what this is about. :) I've been FEELING better. My skin is clear and I have a healthier glow. Because of that, I even look much thinner, even when I've only lost twenty pounds. I'm not sick all the time anymore and I don't struggle as much to get things done throughout the day.

Because I haven't lost as much weight as them(though they ARE larger than me, by a lot, which I think is part of it, along with simply eating far less than normal and completely cutting out pasta which was a very common food here) my mom believes my diet is a failure and that I should switch to hers. She constantly claims that I am low on iron and protein despite the fact that I DO eat meat--as much as every other day, or as little as once every two weeks, but I do eat it. Along with beans, nuts, spinach, broccoli, etc. I am not nutrient deficient there. And when I eat a salad with fruit mixed in it, she warns me that THAT is the reason I haven't lost weight. Because of the fruit mixing thing her diet says.

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That's awesome you feel better! Have you tracked how much protein you get in a day? and tell them that the larger you are the quicker the weight will and should come off. And the fruit fear thing is just plain ridiculous, do they know why they are avoiding fruit? I hope the answer is not fructose. why would you cut out one of the most nutrient dense foods around.

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It's frustrating, to be honest. She doesn't really respect my views because she thinks you are supposed to lose weight fast. I don't want it all to fall off, because I know if that happens, it's all too easy for it to jump right back on. Not to mention, extreme weight changes(higher OR lower) are ALMOST ALWAYS dangerous.

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like I said, its all based on how high your body fat is when you start. and all of them could benefit gaining some weight... in the form of LBM.

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But it's been hard getting her to let me buy the veggies I want and need. She wonders how I can spend so much on vegetables, even though a weeks worth of my food is far less than hers. Because she still thinks of the veggies as side dishes. It's really frustrating at family occasions, when I'm not able to make my own food(school or something unavoidable) and I want to eat no meat. I'll end up with an entirely empty plate with a spoonful of broccoli, because that was all that was left for me. Then she'll tell my family I'm on a starvation diet and have them freak out about me. Uhhh...WHAT?! :O

I know, I shouldn't rely on them for my stuff--but the thing is, I never got to get my driver's license. My parents were too busy to teach me, and then I left for college where there were busses between buildings. Now I'm back home and I finally got my permit, but I still haven't been taught how to drive. My grandma says she will teach me, but it's all about finding time when my parents will take me over there to actually learn. Honestly I'll probably have to get my boyfriend to take me. Point of that is, I can't drive, and our grocery store is not in a safe walking distance. Every time I've been able to go to get my own veggies, it's been when a friend or Nathan took me. They usually go on their way home from work, so they don't generally pick me up. It just..makes it really difficult. They know I can't transport myself, they know I can't get my own food. Part of it IS mom trying to switch me to her diet, she always mentions how I'd do so much better on it. It's so weird, it feels like peer pressure the way she acts about it, all sneaky like. I know it's because she really thinks it's the best and because it's working for her--which I don't question, it really is. But she doesn't respect that it just didn't work for me. I got so dang sick doing it.


Actually in the past month, I have been unable to get any new fresh fruits and veggies. We have some frozen ones--frozen spinach and carrots. I have potatoes too, I like to cook some mushrooms and stuff the potato with the mushrooms. Thankfully Nathan's parents feed me good veggie food when I'm there, or else I'd really be out.


So.. I guess it's been going well, but there have been some struggles. I hope when I get my license soon and get this job(was offered a job at an aquarium store) things will look up. I'm not able to rely on them to help out with this, so I've got to get it all together myself.

But.. I have lost twenty pounds, and like I said, I feel great and happy.

One thing I LOVE about this, is I am able to choose more humane meat easier. When meat is a rare occasion, I can wait til I know I get organic, awesome fresh meat from healthy animals that weren't stuffed with antibiotics and fed nasty stuff. Honestly, the meat tastes better, and I feel a lot better. :)


This next summer I am planning on growing my own zucchini, since I have discovered it is my FAVORITE! :D Delicious!!

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congrats on the weight loss so far! :gj:

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I'm getting my masters in the next year and a half and becoming a registered dietitian. I have lots of nutrition training and am currently involved in a dietetic internship.

There is no reason to cut out lean meats and fish from your diet. Other than that, you sound like you are on the right track. As JLC said, tis the right balance of low fat dairy, whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and I'd like to add lean proteins such as chicken/turkey breast, fish, beans, and nuts. And cutting out pre-packaged/processed foods when possible.

As others have mentioned, "diets" are a bad idea. It's a way of life, which you seem to understand, but I wouldn't be following any type of diet as much as understanding the food pyramid and balancing out healthy foods along with allowing yourself to have a treat here and there.
Also, I advise against "cheat days" as they can make a lot of progress disappear fast. You need to have treats in moderation. Portion sizes are imperative. Cheat days, no. Treats here and there in moderation, good.

And remember to balance calories in with calories out.

Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

I'm getting my masters in the next year and a half and becoming a registered dietitian. I have lots of nutrition training and am currently involved in a dietetic internship.

There is no reason to cut out lean meats and fish from your diet. Other than that, you sound like you are on the right track. As JLC said, tis the right balance of low fat dairy, whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and I'd like to add lean proteins such as chicken/turkey breast, fish, beans, and nuts. And cutting out pre-packaged/processed foods when possible.

As others have mentioned, "diets" are a bad idea. It's a way of life, which you seem to understand, but I wouldn't be following any type of diet as much as understanding the food pyramid and balancing out healthy foods along with allowing yourself to have a treat here and there.
Also, I advise against "cheat days" as they can make a lot of progress disappear fast. You need to have treats in moderation. Portion sizes are imperative. Cheat days, no. Treats here and there in moderation, good.

And remember to balance calories in with calories out.

Good luck.

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That's awesome your an actual dietitian (or going to be).
Out of curiosity, what are your recommendations for daily protein intake in a non-athletic individual?
and do you have any issues with the current food pyramid?
and what is wrong in regards to "cheat days"? are you ok with "cheat meals"? is it the overall caloric surplus or probability of low nutrient density?

good luck with your new lifestyle choice. it isnt always easy to eat healthy with all the unhealthy fast food restaurants around. a couple months ago i completely cut out soda and gatorade and pretty much anything else other then milk, i love milk lol, and drink just water 90% of the time. partially for reasons of a diet but also because its cheaper, ive cut down on eating in general, i started eating some fruits that i like and stopped eating out and one day went in and weighed myself for the first time in forever and somehow 10 lbs was gone. a month later ive lost another 10 and am still going.

i dont workout at all and actually spend most of my time in front of the tv/computer, i know its bad but its what i do. i have a 40+ hr per week job that keeps me on my feet and walking around, seriously its a stupid amount of walking, and moving heavier objects. i do have my weak moments when i get some mcdonalds or something whenever im out but thats maybe once a week so its kind of a treat.

like the OP i havent seen the low side of 200 in years but i think if i got down to 210 id be happy as thats a lot smaller than where im at now but still some meat on the bones. i dont want to be skinny i just want to be more fit then i am now and hopefully i get there.

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Originally Posted by djansen

That's awesome your an actual dietitian (or going to be).
Out of curiosity, what are your recommendations for daily protein intake in a non-athletic individual?

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The ADA's recommendation is to get .8g/kg of body weight.

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and do you have any issues with the current food pyramid?

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The food pyramid currently is set just fine. It even works for vegetarians as the dairy group includes soy milks and almond milks and the protein group includes beans, eggs, etc.

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and what is wrong in regards to "cheat days"? are you ok with "cheat meals"? is it the overall caloric surplus or probability of low nutrient density?

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The whole notion behind "cheat days" can overthrow a week's worth of progress. It of course is okay to have a day where you just overeat here and there, but we are talking holidays, far and few in between.

If you have 1500 calories daily on a weight loss diet, and you are working out, and then all of the sudden you have a cheat day. Let's say you have a large dinner and a large dessert, totaling about 2000 calories (that is being generous for today's portions in restaurants). If you eat healthy the rest of the day, it won't hurt you a ton, if you say have a 200 calorie breakfast and a 300 calorie lunch (eating a little light to make up for your cheat meal, which is still a bit overzealous). I would also recommend a good workout session before dinner on these kind of days, to help your metabolism burn through those extra calories a little more efficiently.

Now, let's say you changed this to a cheat DAY. You have a 1000 calorie all out breakfast and a 1000 calorie all out lunch (again, I'm being generous here, you'd be surprised. And this is assuming with no snacks). That puts you at at least 4,000 calories. While this is not a true overhaul on your diet, it is a lot for your body to handle. Especially as your body adapts to your healthier diet, your body will not react as well to this "cheat day." It would most likely result in gas, upset stomach, lethargy, and the effects will most likely last throughout the next day as you work through your food coma.

In a bigger sense, you are allowing yourself to regress and have bad eating habits. And by allowing yourself a cheat day or even a cheat meal, you are putting on the notion that these foods are cheat foods and are off limits, when really you should just be concerned with moderating portion sizes so that you can still be enjoying them here and there without ruining your diet.

For example, instead of finishing off your cheat meal with a cold stone creamery ice cream in the biggest size (this is trend for cheat meals, ordering the biggest and the best), you have a nice healthy dinner and allow yourself a small portion in a bowl, not offsetting your intake. You worked out hard earlier in the day to make up for it. You feel great. If you had your cheat meal, you will most likely feel awful and stuffed and completely full.

As I mentioned, holidays are the exception, and that is why we only have so many throughout the year. Allow these to be your "cheat days" and don't consider them that. They are holidays, where food is being celebrated instead of being used in a negative tone of voice ("cheat").


I feel like I'm rambling here, but I hope you get what I am trying to say.

It is much more feasible in a healthy lifestyle to allow yourself a treat here and there in a small, reasonable portion size instead of going all out. It is much harder on your body to do that and it is much easier on you to allow yourself to have the foods you like more often, as long as you moderate how much you eat and work them into your calories.

The ADA's recommendation is to get .8g/kg of body weight.

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I see. I could make a case for higher in trained individuals but I tend to agree here. though, I see no downside to increasing it.

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The food pyramid currently is set just fine. It even works for vegetarians as the dairy group includes soy milks and almond milks and the protein group includes beans, eggs, etc.


The whole notion behind "cheat days" can overthrow a week's worth of progress. It of course is okay to have a day where you just overeat here and there, but we are talking holidays, far and few in between.

If you have 1500 calories daily on a weight loss diet, and you are working out, and then all of the sudden you have a cheat day. Let's say you have a large dinner and a large dessert, totaling about 2000 calories (that is being generous for today's portions in restaurants). If you eat healthy the rest of the day, it won't hurt you a ton, if you say have a 200 calorie breakfast and a 300 calorie lunch (eating a little light to make up for your cheat meal, which is still a bit overzealous). I would also recommend a good workout session before dinner on these kind of days, to help your metabolism burn through those extra calories a little more efficiently.

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so in this scenario you only be about 500 cals above maintenance providing you were running a 500 cal deficit. if you stuck to your diet the rest of the week the impact would be nothing.

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Now, let's say you changed this to a cheat DAY. You have a 1000 calorie all out breakfast and a 1000 calorie all out lunch (again, I'm being generous here, you'd be surprised. And this is assuming with no snacks). That puts you at at least 4,000 calories. While this is not a true overhaul on your diet, it is a lot for your body to handle. Especially as your body adapts to your healthier diet, your body will not react as well to this "cheat day." It would most likely result in gas, upset stomach, lethargy, and the effects will most likely last throughout the next day as you work through your food coma.

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again, provided I stuck to my 500 cal deficit the rest of the week even taking 2000 cal above maintenance on one day would be harmless (minus the discomfort lol.

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In a bigger sense, you are allowing yourself to regress and have bad eating habits. And by allowing yourself a cheat day or even a cheat meal, you are putting on the notion that these foods are cheat foods and are off limits, when really you should just be concerned with moderating portion sizes so that you can still be enjoying them here and there without ruining your diet.

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I totally agree here, avoid food avoidance.

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For example, instead of finishing off your cheat meal with a cold stone creamery ice cream in the biggest size (this is trend for cheat meals, ordering the biggest and the best), you have a nice healthy dinner and allow yourself a small portion in a bowl, not offsetting your intake. You worked out hard earlier in the day to make up for it. You feel great. If you had your cheat meal, you will most likely feel awful and stuffed and completely full.

As I mentioned, holidays are the exception, and that is why we only have so many throughout the year. Allow these to be your "cheat days" and don't consider them that. They are holidays, where food is being celebrated instead of being used in a negative tone of voice ("cheat").


I feel like I'm rambling here, but I hope you get what I am trying to say.

It is much more feasible in a healthy lifestyle to allow yourself a treat here and there in a small, reasonable portion size instead of going all out. It is much harder on your body to do that and it is much easier on you to allow yourself to have the foods you like more often, as long as you moderate how much you eat and work them into your calories.

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I agree fully with what you are saying. I think the idea of cheat meals or days is where you go all out and binge is a problem. That said, I think it is fully reasonable to allow yourself to have full meal of whatever you enjoy like maybe a burger and fries once a week or even more frequently. If you understand your caloric intake and expenditure it should not be an issue. But overall, I think your suggestions are perfect for majority of the population.
thank you for addressing my questions.

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after re-reading I think I may have echoed some of what you said lol.

What you are saying is a little bit off of the point I Was trying to make. When people say "cheat meal" they tend to binge. If you just have a bit larger meal of burger and fries at mcdonalds and don't follow up with a large dessert, of course that is easier to rebound from. However, it would be best to get a small fry and a cheeseburger rather than a triple stack and a large fry with a milkshake, and you would probably be just as satisfied without the feeling of lethargy or self-regret.

Your 500 deficit theory is correct per regular cheat meal, where I theorized a 2500 calorie day, you would be at 500 surplus, which is correct. Of course this won't kill you, but there is no reason not to get smaller portions as they will satisfy you and avoid you discomfort.

The 2500 surplus however, with your 4000 calorie day (opposed to the theorized 1500 "limit", which isn't really a good way to put it as you should listen to your body and eat a little if you're hungry), will cancel out every other deficit you had that week except for one. Worth it? Not really.

I think most people would be surprised how fulfilled they feel if they would opt for the smaller portions of what they consider a "cheat meal" and realize there is no need for these terms at all.


PS
excess protein CAN be a bad thing, if you aren't using it. It is great to increase protein to 1-1.5g/kg (note, I said KG not LB), if you are healing through an injury, and it is recommended to not really go above 1-1.2g/kg for lifting as excess protein will not help you any beyond that. It is hard on your body to eat excess proteins unless you need them for healing (muscle, injury, etc).

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Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

What you are saying is a little bit off of the point I Was trying to make. When people say "cheat meal" they tend to binge. If you just have a bit larger meal of burger and fries at mcdonalds and don't follow up with a large dessert, of course that is easier to rebound from. However, it would be best to get a small fry and a cheeseburger rather than a triple stack and a large fry with a milkshake, and you would probably be just as satisfied without the feeling of lethargy or self-regret.

Your 500 deficit theory is correct per regular cheat meal, where I theorized a 2500 calorie day, you would be at 500 surplus, which is correct. Of course this won't kill you, but there is no reason not to get smaller portions as they will satisfy you and avoid you discomfort.

The 2500 surplus however, with your 4000 calorie day (opposed to the theorized 1500 "limit", which isn't really a good way to put it as you should listen to your body and eat a little if you're hungry), will cancel out every other deficit you had that week except for one. Worth it? Not really.

I think most people would be surprised how fulfilled they feel if they would opt for the smaller portions of what they consider a "cheat meal" and realize there is no need for these terms at all.


PS
excess protein CAN be a bad thing, if you aren't using it. It is great to increase protein to 1-1.5g/kg (note, I said KG not LB), if you are healing through an injury, and it is recommended to not really go above 1-1.2g/kg for lifting as excess protein will not help you any beyond that. It is hard on your body to eat excess proteins unless you need them for healing (muscle, injury, etc).

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yeah, it was a little off point. But, saying that small portions will satisfy you is kinda a blanket statement. I personally don't get satisfied by small portions, that's why I tend not to eat high "junk" (for lack of a better word) food because a small serving like a small fry and single burger wont cut it. And yeah, the 4000 cal day is prob not worth and I am not arguing with you here, going on an all day binge is never a good idea.

And, excess protein is hard on your body how? kidney concern? bone density?
I am not taking about an extreme amount but quite a bit more then the RDA .8g/kg. I understand we are talking about sedentary individuals and not athletes but depending on the individual and how long they run a caloric deficit that range could be too low. Also, I am assuming that the individual is healthy and has no signs of renal failure.

It won't hurt you to eat excess protein for a little while, but I wouldn't exceed 1.5g/kg unless you're hurt really badly. They found no benefits to exceeding 1.2g/kg, I believe it was, in a study that was done. I believe it was published in ACSM journals.
Yes, it is a renal concern.

Of course, this is a longterm thing.


And I still have to disagree, a high fat meal like cheeseburger and small fry should at least satisfy you. If it doesn't, then that is odd. You don't need to feel full to feel satisfied. Of course that's a mentality thing.


Small portions ONLY apply to energy dense foods.
You can have very large portions of high nutrient dense low energy dense foods and be fine, of course. It's much better to eat a large bowl of salad with chicken breast and tomatoes and peppers for example, than to eat 3 double cheeseburgers, but if you were to eat one double cheeseburger, it would be a better choice. However I'd rather eat a huge salad that one cheeseburger.

Too much meat really makes me feel bad honestly, same thing with dairy (lactose intolerant)
I've just always prefered eating small bits of meat--light chicken sliced up in a salad rather than a huge steak cooked in butter. I'm 'cutting back on meat' to what I think is a more normal serving.. I don't think 80+% of the diet should be meat. And that's all I see with people around me :O not even an exaggeration.

Yeah, the fruit avoidance IS the fructose. They will eat it, but only alone and on an empty stomach. They also don't eat avocado, squash, carrots, potatoes, sweet potatoes, etc. The idea of the diet is to prevent the body from being able to absorb any fat by completely forcing your insulin to never spike, and if it does spike, have nothing else to 'feed' the fat. So fruit would cause an insulin spike, so eating anything with fruit would cause weight gain.. And then all the other weird mixes they aren't allowed. Makes it tricky for my picky eater of a mom. Not to mention they just get lazy and just don't buy the stuff. I haven't seen my mom touch a fruit in about 2 months now.

I've always been raised on a really, really, REALLY high protein diet. Breakfast would be sausage and bacon, lunch would be something like barbeque, dinner would be a steak. That was pretty much every day. Rarely ate veggies as sides, maybe those soft cooked baby carrots or green beans. Our usual side was mashed potatoes or fries or, maybe even a side of more meat. Fruit was never a big deal in the family. Other than meat was of course breads and pastas, boy don't those do a body's waistline wonders, LOL. But basically..I dunno. My doctor told me I had developed irritable bowel syndrome and I always grew up feeling sick after I ate. Just a lot of meat and a lot of oil and a lot of heavy foods that just affected my digestive system poorly.

Even the way I eat now I still get the recommended amount of protein, and a lot of it is still from meat. Some people think I've gone full veggie, I just..need a break!! :O I don't want to end up hating meat, I actually do quite love it. I just am about to get sick of it, so I need a little rest for my system...

Not to mention, one thing I do like about deciding meat doesn't HAVE to be the main course is it not only has helped me branch out(I've learned to love so many new fruits veggies now that they are no longer that side dish that can be ignored and are now forced to be the 'star' of the meal!) but I also get to pick healthier meats. I can afford to spend a little more to get a nicer pick of meat because I'm not spending all that money on it every day. I can afford to eat meat from more humane meat companies or just try out something new, cause it's a treat! :)

Honestly it is a lot more than just the meat. It goes into nutrients, portion control, exercise, all that and more. But that's just really what got me started. I just got tired of feeling sick, and I knew I felt sicker the moment that veggies and fruits were almost completely cut out from my life, and I just..Wanted to see if I could try something to make me feel better. So I focused on nutrition. I actually talked to the doctor to see where I was at. Turns out I had hemochromatosis (Iron overload), even though I had always guessed I must have had iron anemia. They both have some similar symptoms (fatigue, weakness, etc.) that was quite a shock. I had always tried to eat more iron when I felt bad, clearly I was doing the very worst thing i could do! :O Seriously, get checked out by a doctor, don't try to self diagnose or have others try to figure it out. That was horrifying. Other than my iron overload, the rest of my nutrients were just sort of pathetic. Nothing awful like I was about to keel over or anything, but I definitely wasn't doing myself any favors.

Another thing is, I want to get away from total food avoidance. I'm cutting back on meat, yeah, but not depriving myself. If I want it, I'll eat it. I just don't feel like eating it as much because..I just don't? My parents diet is ALL about food avoidance. They just can't eat anything and just about every event we go to. Even eating a single bite would completely throw off the entire diet and cause them to absorb all the fat they should have absorbed all day. Their diet you cannot cheat on, or you will not lose. But it cuts out so many GOOD foods and just.. Well, I felt deprived on that diet. I couldn't eat foods--good foods, not like "Boo I can't eat my lasagna", but "What, I can't eat a fresh winter squash? This strawberry will cause me to gain tons of weight if I don't wait 3 hours after eating?"

When I eat like I do now, I never feel like I'm not getting what I want, which I like. I just..am eating better and making better choices. If my friend comes to town and wants to go to a steak place, I can go eat steak that night. I just watch myself later, as I would when eating any higher calorie meal. It's just a hell of a lot trickier to eat 4000 calories in straight up raw veggies haha! So if I've been eating bad, loving and eating these veggies lets me feel full and still keep my weight down.

So right now I'm sort of working like this--first thing I do is make sure I get ALL my nutrients I need in the day. I get all the veggies, fruits, nuts, beans, whatever it takes. I make my food from what I need. I like to start with vegetables because I can fill myself up on them while they are super low in calories. It's hard to get fat on veggies LOL.. I eat my fruits through the day as snacks as well as for breakfast, being a light enough food I feel good eating it in the morning without feeling sick. If I want to eat some meat I'll usually do that for lunch, cause I like my 'big calorie' meal to be earlier in the day. But I'm flexible, if we have a guest over for dinner I'll eat with the family and guest. Sometimes that means I'll end up eating lots of meat just like I used to because the day just ended up that way, sometimes that means instead i just eat vegetarian all day(and cook myself up an awesome roasted butternut squash or something. Delicious)

Thankfully a lot of my now favorite foods are also super super nutritious! If I'm going to blow a bunch of calories on something, it might as well be stuff that does good stuff for me! If that means it's a unique salad with avocados and flax seeds, bring it on. If there is meat on that plate, that's fine. I'm just..not eating as much as I did. Maybe I've been scarred. It was a messed up diet. A big plate of brown with a side of brown. :O No thanks!

I know my parents are getting their nutrients, just through taking vitamins instead. I still don't know how I feel about that, but I am glad they are still losing weight. They've each gone down nearly 100 pounds now! It's very impressive. I just hope things stay good, it just freaks me out sometimes. For a while they started to get very weak. They bought fruit again to make smoothies in the morning and got a lot stronger and better and it was awesome. But now they slacked off again and haven't been buying anything, it's just too much of a hassle since they go bad so fast and all that. I think they just care more about the weight loss than the health factor. I just hope that doesn't mean yo-yoing back up or anything worse.


Still losing slow and steady here. Been able to kick it up a couple notches since it's gotten so cold! I can go out running more often without wanting to pass out from the Texas heat! Also just doing anything and everything to be active. Instead of just watching tv, I'll use our little 'on demand' program list and find a short 10 minute work out video or dance tutorial to get moving. I also am playing DDR, which I LOVE, and play extreme level songs for about 30-50 minutes(or, well, longer if there is a song I REALLY must conquer and have trouble with it..lol. I'm very stubborn) I also love the work out program on our DDR. I don't know how accurate it is, but according to their method of calorie counting(about 2 calories a step depending on the weight you entered) I am burning about 300-400 calories each DDR session. :D That plus just walking and getting around. Trying so hard to put together a regular workout routine, but it's hard without someone there telling me what to do, or without a video to watch. There are just so many different types of workouts and and stretches, it's just easier to watch and do it, haha!

Thanksgiving is going to be interesting. It's going to be fine now. I'm going to kick butt and still rock eating right. I don't need to eat like a piggy to enjoy delicious food. :gj: I want to prove this to myself that I can go to a big food based event and not just eat. I'll just pick out my favorites, eat just a little of them so I can really appreciate the taste and get myself to be not hungry and head back home feeling like I'm on top of the world! :D :D That's the plan!

It won't hurt you to eat excess protein for a little while, but I wouldn't exceed 1.5g/kg unless you're hurt really badly. They found no benefits to exceeding 1.2g/kg, I believe it was, in a study that was done. I believe it was published in ACSM journals.
Yes, it is a renal concern.

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are you talking sedentary people only?
in strength trained individuals .86kg/kg showed a decrease in whole body protein synthesis and a negative nitrogen balance with 1.4g/kg showing the best results in regards to increases protein synthesis without excess amino acid oxidation.
In middle age men (55-57) the RDA .8g/kg over 14 weeks with no exercise mid-thigh muscle area decreased by an average of 1.7 cm. The authors concluded that the RDA recommendation may not meet the metabolic or physiological all older people. Let me know if you want links to the studies.

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Of course, this is a longterm thing.

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That's where it is a grey area. As far as I know no adverse effects (as high as 2.8g/kg) have been seen in people with healthy kidney function. And that's up to 6 months. I would love to see more long term data, if you are aware of any more current studies on protein safety I would love to see them.

The point I am trying to make here is that for ageing people, active people (not only training), and people in a caloric deficit I feel the RDA .8g/kg is too low. Especially for people like vegetarians for example, who find it harder to find complete proteins reaching that amount may be flirting with low protein levels. In regards to maintaining or adding LBM with no adverse effects seen in a huge range above but negative effects seen close too .8g/kg or lower why would you not consume more protein? And I am not advocating cutting out one macro-nutrient but setting your protein and fat and protein requirements and getting the rest through CHO based on your target calories.

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And I still have to disagree, a high fat meal like cheeseburger and small fry should at least satisfy you. If it doesn't, then that is odd. You don't need to feel full to feel satisfied. Of course that's a mentality thing.


Small portions ONLY apply to energy dense foods.
You can have very large portions of high nutrient dense low energy dense foods and be fine, of course. It's much better to eat a large bowl of salad with chicken breast and tomatoes and peppers for example, than to eat 3 double cheeseburgers, but if you were to eat one double cheeseburger, it would be a better choice. However I'd rather eat a huge salad that one cheeseburger.

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Ok, I am weird then ;). I think we agree here, I am not advocating going on a binge and think your advice about small portions works well but the amount of "junk" can be left to discretion with little to no effects within a realistic range if you know your daily caloric intake.
Have a happy Thanksgiving!

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Yeah, the fruit avoidance IS the fructose. They will eat it, but only alone and on an empty stomach. They also don't eat avocado, squash, carrots, potatoes, sweet potatoes, etc. The idea of the diet is to prevent the body from being able to absorb any fat by completely forcing your insulin to never spike, and if it does spike, have nothing else to 'feed' the fat. So fruit would cause an insulin spike, so eating anything with fruit would cause weight gain.. And then all the other weird mixes they aren't allowed. Makes it tricky for my picky eater of a mom. Not to mention they just get lazy and just don't buy the stuff. I haven't seen my mom touch a fruit in about 2 months now.

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Wow, I think your parents should look a little into fat metabolism and the role of insulin and less into what is it Suzanne Summers? has to say. Fearing the GI and "insulin spikes" is just silly (unless your diabetic of course).
Fruit is very nutrient dense and do they realize how much actual fructose is in a piece of fruit?
Here is a good read for you on fructose:
http://www.alanaragonblog.com/2010/0...tose-alarmism/

Overall I think you have the right idea and if you throw in some exercise you should be well on your way. Good luck and Happy Thanksgiving!

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Djansen, while you have good points, I suppose I just speak from seeing the extreme side of things, where excess protein CAN cause problems. I intern at the heart hospital and we have to make sure we don't recommend too much protein because a majority of the patients have renal failure.

Now, I may have misworded something somewhere. Excess protein won't necessarily cause renal failure, but it will be harmful if there are risks. It can be hard on the kidneys and yes there is research out there but I don't think it is based on a certain amount rather than a cause and effect type study.


As far as protein recommendations go, the .8g/kg recommendation is for a healthy, moderately active individual, not sedentary.
When someone is sedentary, of course they will lose muscle mass. That's agiven. It has nothing to do with how much protein you eat at that rate, because if you don't use your muscles, they WILL waste. The protein can help decrease the rate of this, but it still happens. So I don't think the study you are referring to was necessarily aimed towards recommendations for a healthy, active lifestyle but more towards avoidance of muscle wasting in say the sedentary, elderly population, which is a great study because muscle wasting and bone loss in the elderly are big issues.

As I mentioned, it is recommended to get 1-1.2g/kg by ACSM for strength trained individuals, and yes that extra .2-.4g/kg does make a bigger difference than you think. So a .8g/kg causing problems would make sense in heavily strength trained individuals.

However, remember, one study doesn't mean we can generalize this to all, because there are more studies out there that contradict that. I think we can agree to that statement alone.



As far as the comment to fructose:
To the OP - the diet your parents are on is insane. Suzanne Sommers is not a food scientist nor a dietitian.

For one, fructose does not cause insulin spikes. Glucose is accepted by GLUT4 transporters into the blood, and fructose uses a different GLUT transporter. GLUT4 transporters cause insulin secretion, and they are located in the pancreas. Fructose however does not use the same pathway and does NOT increase blood sugar nor insulin. Therefore there is no reason for you not to eat fruit.
The only negative about fructose, which is commonly seen with high fructose corn syrup (concentrated source of fructose), is that it inhibits leptin secretion signaling that you are full and is more readily converted to fat rather than glycogen. However, the reason this is not important for fruit consumption, is because you don't eat enough fruit in one sitting to cause this problem to be an issue. I'd like to see someone TRY to eat enough to cause weight gain.

Oh, and insulin spiking does NOT cause weight gain. It is an important mechanism in your body that allows you to regulate your blood sugar so that you can be active and live well. If you didn't have insulin, you wouldn't be able to lower your blood sugar after having a piece of birthday cake. And when you are exercising, your body is converting glycogen to glucose for your body to actively using energy, and the same thing happens when you have an adrenaline rush. But what happens when you have excess glucose in the blood? Insulin is secreted and it is converted back into glycogen, which is stored mostly in the liver and some in the muscles.

So what does cause weight gain then? EXCESS calories/energy cause weight gain, excess fat especially. Not carbohydrates, which are, by the way, essential for the brain. The brain uses glucose to function, and if for some reason there is no glucose available, it uses ketone bodies, and believe me - you do not want that to happen.

I think it's time to reevaluate what diet you and yours are partaking in :)

The best way of eating is to watch portion sizes of your heavier energy dense foods, eat more nutrient rich foods that are not energy dense (vegetables, fruits), and follow a diet rich in whole grains, low fat dairy, and lean proteins.

People make diets out to be more than they really are.
I know first hand how hard it is to resist junk food, but if you're dedicated to a diet, at least make it the right one :)

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Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

Djansen, while you have good points, I suppose I just speak from seeing the extreme side of things, where excess protein CAN cause problems. I intern at the heart hospital and we have to make sure we don't recommend too much protein because a majority of the patients have renal failure.

Now, I may have misworded something somewhere. Excess protein won't necessarily cause renal failure, but it will be harmful if there are risks. It can be hard on the kidneys and yes there is research out there but I don't think it is based on a certain amount rather than a cause and effect type study.


As far as protein recommendations go, the .8g/kg recommendation is for a healthy, moderately active individual, not sedentary.
When someone is sedentary, of course they will lose muscle mass. That's agiven. It has nothing to do with how much protein you eat at that rate, because if you don't use your muscles, they WILL waste. The protein can help decrease the rate of this, but it still happens. So I don't think the study you are referring to was necessarily aimed towards recommendations for a healthy, active lifestyle but more towards avoidance of muscle wasting in say the sedentary, elderly population, which is a great study because muscle wasting and bone loss in the elderly are big issues.

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I myself consume a "high" protein diet (1g-1.2g per lb body-weight depending on CHO intake) and have been on one for about 6 years and in all my blood-work I have had no issues to speak of. I have reviewed a lot of literature and I have yet to see any negative effects on healthy individuals. I am not saying there are none because I am sure there are and I would really like to review them.

And in regards to the study on the elderly, that is true that if you don't use your muscles they will atrophy. But here is what I got from that study:
Though a loss of muscle mass and bone density is inevitable as you age my goal would to be delay for as long as I can OR reverse some of those effects by A: engaging in some form of resistance exercise and B: consuming adequate protein AND adequate calcium intake (calcium deficient people are a different story). Why would I shoot for the bare minimum and risk this? and i'm not saying an unreasonable amount, 1.2-1.4g/kg sounds reasonable. do you see where I am coming from?

And, great post on insulin and fructose. :gj:

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Originally Posted by djansen

I myself consume a "high" protein diet (1g-1.2g per lb body-weight depending on CHO intake) and have been on one for about 6 years and in all my blood-work I have had no issues to speak of. I have reviewed a lot of literature and I have yet to see any negative effects on healthy individuals. I am not saying there are none because I am sure there are and I would really like to review them.

And in regards to the study on the elderly, that is true that if you don't use your muscles they will atrophy. But here is what I got from that study:
Though a loss of muscle mass and bone density is inevitable as you age my goal would to be delay for as long as I can OR reverse some of those effects by A: engaging in some form of resistance exercise and B: consuming adequate protein AND adequate calcium intake (calcium deficient people are a different story). Why would I shoot for the bare minimum and risk this? and i'm not saying an unreasonable amount, 1.2-1.4g/kg sounds reasonable. do you see where I am coming from?

And, great post on insulin and fructose. :gj:

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I think I have actually read that study, and I agree with it 100%. However for a normal individual, .8g/kg should be significant enough, if they aren't doing a lot of strength training (involving muscle tears thus needing extra protein for rebuilding) but remaining active. I have not seen any research done on a younger individual that is healthy and active on the impacts of the recommended protein intake. As Americans, most of us get plenty of protein anyway, thus it is not a concern for a vast majority of us. However once you hit a certain age, and I think it is detailed in that study or others, it is important to increase your protein needs just a little, not a lot. We recommend at least 1g/kg protein at the nebraska heart hospital, where 95% of the patients are at this point.
I think muscle wasting is less due to the amount of protein intake, and more due to the amount of protein utilization within the body, concerning absorption, along with maintaining an active healthy lifestyle. Those that maintain that throughout adulthood are seen to have less muscle wasting, so we should not be attributing it to just one factor.
I genuinely believe that if one eats between .8-1.2g/kg of protein no matter on what end of the spectrum, throughout their diet, and maintain a healthy exercise regimen which engages muscles and bones, along with eating a variety of protein sources including ANIMAL proteins, because there is no vegetable source of protein that contains all amino acids (sorry vegetarians, you have to work harder here, but it can still be done), then there is no need for concern. My grandfather is a prime example of that. So to highlight what the study said, I agree - consume adequate protein and maintain a healthy exercise regimen for a longlasting life. I see what you are saying, but I by no means think that .8g/kg is too low for certain individuals, such as naturally thin people, females, etc.

As far as high protein intake, I would not really consider 1-1.4 g/kg high, while it can make a reasonable difference in those training against muscle wasting/repair, it will not make a siginificant difference renally. You are fine :gj:

I think it is where we get above 2g/kg when concern starts to occur, depending on lifestyle of course.

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Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

I think I have actually read that study, and I agree with it 100%. However for a normal individual, .8g/kg should be significant enough, if they aren't doing a lot of strength training (involving muscle tears thus needing extra protein for rebuilding) but remaining active. I have not seen any research done on a younger individual that is healthy and active on the impacts of the recommended protein intake. As Americans, most of us get plenty of protein anyway, thus it is not a concern for a vast majority of us. However once you hit a certain age, and I think it is detailed in that study or others, it is important to increase your protein needs just a little, not a lot. We recommend at least 1g/kg protein at the nebraska heart hospital, where 95% of the patients are at this point.
I think muscle wasting is less due to the amount of protein intake, and more due to the amount of protein utilization within the body, concerning absorption, along with maintaining an active healthy lifestyle. Those that maintain that throughout adulthood are seen to have less muscle wasting, so we should not be attributing it to just one factor.
I genuinely believe that if one eats between .8-1.2g/kg of protein no matter on what end of the spectrum, throughout their diet, and maintain a healthy exercise regimen which engages muscles and bones, along with eating a variety of protein sources including ANIMAL proteins, because there is no vegetable source of protein that contains all amino acids (sorry vegetarians, you have to work harder here, but it can still be done), then there is no need for concern. My grandfather is a prime example of that. So to highlight what the study said, I agree - consume adequate protein and maintain a healthy exercise regimen for a longlasting life. I see what you are saying, but I by no means think that .8g/kg is too low for certain individuals, such as naturally thin people, females, etc.

As far as high protein intake, I would not really consider 1-1.4 g/kg high, while it can make a reasonable difference in those training against muscle wasting/repair, it will not make a siginificant difference renally. You are fine :gj:

I think it is where we get above 2g/kg when concern starts to occur, depending on lifestyle of course.

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It looks like time will tell, I really look forward to future research on this topic. That said, I am not looking at what is "enough" or the bare minimum but rather what is optimal. And I full acknowledge the fact that there a lot of variables at play. I guess overall we are pretty much on the same page, with maybe a few things we can agree to disagree on then.
thank you for the discussion. :)
and good luck on getting your masters on the road to a dietitian. I am also currently in school for exercise science and not sure what exactly what field I want to go into yet.

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Originally Posted by djansen

It looks like time will tell, I really look forward to future research on this topic. That said, I am not looking at what is "enough" or the bare minimum but rather what is optimal. And I full acknowledge the fact that there a lot of variables at play. I guess overall we are pretty much on the same page, with maybe a few things we can agree to disagree on then.
thank you for the discussion. :)
and good luck on getting your masters on the road to a dietitian. I am also currently in school for exercise science and not sure what exactly what field I want to go into yet.

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Good discussion indeed. I started out as a nutrition, exercise, and health science major (basically exercise science), so I added on dietetics. I'd love to do something that combines the two, but we will see.

Hope this info was helpful to the OP.