Mojave vs lesser

Has anyone else noticed people transposing these two morphs? I have seen a lot of advertised lessers that look more like mojaves than lessers. I have only seen 1 or 2 ads for mojaves that look like lessers but even those I question my eyes. Do you think that labeling mojaves as lessers is intentional due to the price gap between the two? What do you think about that?

Possibly just poor photo shooting skillz?
mojo's do not look that much like lessers :confused:

I think they look completely different as well. I've never seen anyone accidentally mistake the two morphs. Mojaves are so much darker then lessors.


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Mis labeling those 2 would be like labeling a cinny a regular pastel, way different colors

Hmmmm. Well I can give some good examples but I don't know if it is kosher to post someone elses photos. Input?

Give proper credit to the owner of the photo and don't hot link and you'll be fine.

I know my cinnys look nothing like my lesser and I have a dark lesser

I'm just saying there is no reason to trans pose a lesser and mojo, the difference is huge its like comparing a cinny to a pastel its a big difference

MAYBE CONFUSING A MOJO WITH A MYSTIC BUT I DONT SEE HOW ANYONE COULD CONFUSE A MOJO WITH A LESSER!!:confuse:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GR8DANE

MAYBE CONFUSING A MOJO WITH A MYSTIC BUT I DONT SEE HOW ANYONE COULD CONFUSE A MOJO WITH A LESSER!!:confuse:

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I've seen some poor POOR quality lessers that even made me take a second look. Now couple that with a bad pic of it on the internet and yea I can see.

I have yet to see a lesser look like a mojo, not saying it can't happen but that's a big difference in color

I produced some lessers last year by a dark normal female, that were so dark, people SWORE they were mojaves, but there are differences in color that aren't apparent unless you're really familiar with both morphs. They don't really look identical, even when the lessers are as dark as a typical mojave.

With lessers like these:

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r...710_02_LRG.jpg

...it's easy to see how folks can get confused.

Okay I found some photos and although not the best examples of what I was talking about, it was all I could find in a pinch. Okay, look at the 4 photos below and see if you can identify the lesser (don't cheat!!!!!).

http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n...gzcrunch/3.jpg
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n...gzcrunch/1.jpg
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n...h/DSC09242.jpg
http://i336.photobucket.com/albums/n...gzcrunch/2.jpg

Photo credit to
SERPENTINE EXOTICS
Renick Reptiles

Some examples.

Lesser:
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...3/dsc_0101.jpg

Mojave:
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file..._0476_copy.jpg

adam only problem is that lesser is a great lesser not a poor lesser and wingedwolfs lesser looks alot like a mojo at first glance and you could bring the whole white snake complex into this if you wanted to if someone dosent have an eye for spoting morphs it could happento an inexperanceed herper

3 and 4 are lessers, though 3 is in shed, which makes it difficult.

1 I would sooooo hold back, if it was mine, lol. That is one seriously smokin' mojo.

Along this line, I have seen pictures recently of mature mojaves that were very golden in color and to an inexperienced person they could be confused with a Lesser.

Now babies is another matter, but adults I have sen pictures of some that could be confused.

Gale

Here is an example of both a really light mojo AND a bad picture:

http://snakemorphs.com/images/201106...010_mojave.jpg

I took this in the sun and too washed out but she is very light. I sure hope she is a mojave and not a lesser as I want to eventually produce potions.

Here is her father that came from a clutch where both a mojave and a lesser male where used but we don't think there where any lessers in the clutch:

http://snakemorphs.com/collection/im...MMVT01_med.jpg

Any more guesses before I tell which snake is the lesser?

this is a lesser i bought of this guy.is it a lesser or is it a lesser pastel,or even a butter???

/[IMG]http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3167/lessermale.jpg[/IMG]

here is 2 mojave's i also picked up

[IMG]http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/4...javefemale.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/8384/mojavemale.jpg[/IMG]

I have to say I've been breeding Lesser's for 4 years now if you are confusing a Lesser/ butter(same thing) with a mojave move on to the next prospective ad bottom line.

In my years in this hobby I have only seen one mojave that very much looked like a dark lesser. Again if your not sure move on to the next one.;) I like mojos I have a couple of them lessers blow them away. IMO:D

So....everyone seems to exclaim that "they" can always tell the difference but only one person chose to take a stab at guessing what morph each of the 4 bps I posted was. Since no one else wants to guess....I will expose the TRUTH about those photos.

Photo 1 - For sale as LESSER advertised by Renick Reptiles on Kingsnake

Photo 2 - For sale as 2 MOJAVE females advertised by CBN on Kingsnake

Photo 3 - My owned female MOJAVE not in shed

Photo 4 - For sale as LESSER advertised by SERPENTINE EXOTICS on Kingsnake

Here is what I think is happening. The genes are becoming muddy because of the similar super form and the guesswork associated with the clutches sired or dammed by a BEL of mixed morphs lesserxmojave. They are a variation (does not mean the same just very close) of the same morph and I think if the two are not being selectively bred we will soon have a single morph.

I think that there are two determinations associated with these two morphs color and pattern.

The mojave should have single eyed alien heads running down both sides of the body. The color should be a chocolate brown with plenty of blushing with a gun metal grey or blueish accents. The belly should be clean.

The lesser should have a reduced pattern with few or no alien heads and or spots. The color should be light brown/tan with light yellow accents. The belly should be clean.

My mojave seems like a good specimen color wise but does not have a perfect mojave pattern.

Please comment.

Interesting -- I came in too late to toss in my guess, but I did have a tough time ID'ing a few of those. I got that #1 was an ugly lesser, but I thought that #4 was a pretty mojo. Huh.

Because I do think that lesser and mojave are distinct alleles, not just different bloodlines of the same morph like lessers and butters, I don't think they'll ever become one morph. Whatever makes them different on a molecular level will always remain different. Lessers will never be able to make potions or passions or what have you; mojaves will never be able to make quite as "clean" a leucistic in homozygous form, etc.. At least, that's my suspicion. They just seem too different to be different bloodlines of the exact same allele.

I do agree, however, that without selecting for the traits that make them visually unique, the line gets blurred -- not on a genetic level, but from an identification standpoint.

I will say, this year I bred lesser x mojave and got BELs and two lessers. There is not one single shred of doubt in my mind that my lessers are lessers, and not mojaves, and of all my unrelated lessers and mojaves (it occurred to me awhile back that I have rather a lot of BEL-complex animals relative to my collection size, heh), not a one is ambiguous IMO. Still, I guess if the clutch had been sired by the lesser in picture 1 and out of the mojave in picture 4, it might've been a little bit tougher ... :rolleyes:

Remember these snakes are very variable plus our snakes colors are constantly changing during their shed cycles. That bottom lesser can easily be a couple weeks from shedding this in turn would change its color just like it does to its belly. I'd bet that's why most didn't bother guessing.

All of my snakes are constantly changing, there is only a 10 to 15 day time period after a shed to get a good representation through photos.

Mojos are too lessers what cinnys are too black pastels, breed them together and they do produce a Bel and black snake but they do not change each other at all. To me what changes these animals shade of light or dark is the other copy or allele the wildtype side I guess you can say. Not the platinum complex allele because I believe that always stays the same its the other side that decides color variability and busyness or reduced patterning.