Misconceptions - Can we clear this up?

After reading many threads here, I think there may be a misconception regarding feeding ASF’s to Ball Pythons. I keep reading again and again that if you feed ASF’s to BP’s that you will have difficulty switching them back to rats.

I’ve bred ASF’s in the past and fed them to my BP’s. Since I had no baby BP’s and the ASF’s took so long to grow, I fed them all of and went with rats exclusively. There was no problem switching over 20 BP’s back to rats. When I was breeding ASF’s - sometimes I did not have enough to feed off and filled in with regular rats. My snakes had no problem going back and forth between ASF’s and rats from one week to the next.

Since I’ve got babies in the racks, I’m going to once again breed ASF’s, but after reading these threads to brush up on what needs done, I was surprised at the number of times of predictions of dire consequences if you fed ASF’s to ball pythons. Some of the threads even warn that it is irresponsible for a breeder to feed ASF’s because a buyer may not have access to ASF's and the ball python will not switch back.

These kinds of posts seem to be posted by someone who knows someone who may have had a problem – at least the ones I’ve read. We all know that these snakes have their individual personalities and there may be some that will not switch back, just like there are some BP’s that insist on mice and will not touch rats. If anyone has any firsthand knowledge of issues switching around rodents, then please post. Otherwise, let’s put this rumor to bed.

I’ve got babies in the racks and they are switching around from mouse hoppers to ASF hoppers to rat pinkies because I cannot get a steady supply of just one feeder for them. That’s why I’m going to start breeding ASFs again. So far, none of the babies have had an issue, except for when the pinky’s were a little too big and that was a size issue, not type of food issue.

I agree with you and I've made posts explaining this somewhat in the past. I've done the same thing. I only have one snake in my collection that has always refused to take rats but he will still take mice if offered so I give him ASF and mice depending on my supply.

I often use ASF to start babies that refuse rat pups. They are perfect for hard starters and I've never had a baby that would not eventually go to rat pups after a few meals of larger ASF hoppers.

I 100% support this post!

They are all individuals and some will and some won't switch back and forth, the older they are the harder it seems to be to get them to switch.
I have successfully switch one adult and had zero luck with 2 others, they will not take rats period.
Hatchlings are easy to switch IMO.

Have you tried to sell hatchlings with the words "asf eater" in the ad?

I love feeding all of my guys ASFs, but there's no way in hell I'd start hatchlings on them if I intend on selling them.

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Originally Posted by spitzu

I love feeding all of my guys ASFs, but there's no way in hell I'd start hatchlings on them if I intend on selling them.

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Why? Have you had problems switching them over?

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

Have you tried to sell hatchlings with the words "asf eater" in the ad?

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No because right now, they are eating mouse hoppers, pinkies and ASF Hoppers - whatever I can get my hands on. The snakes don't seem to care as long as it is the right size. I do disclose to the buyers what has been eaten and include a feeding card with each hatchling.

In my experience hatchlings do not imprint on a certain prey type, I have had a 100% switch over rate.

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I love feeding all of my guys ASFs, but there's no way in hell I'd start hatchlings on them if I intend on selling them.

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Many/most(?) people start their hatchlings on mouse hoppers and then switch them over to rats right away, how is that any different than starting with asf's?

I agree. All balls have totally different personalities. My hatchlings have no problem going back and forth from whatever food source I want to feed them. Adults are not so quick to switch. I work closely with a business partner on a few projects. One of our co-owned snakes a lav albino female is about 2 years old. She was exclusively raised by her breeder on asfs. We got her when she was 9 months old. She will not feed on absolutely anything else but asfs. She is the only reason he has asfs and breeds them exclusively for her. Ultimately she will stay around with us. I think the thing that kind of irritated us was we didn't know until half a dozen refusals of rats. We were told she was a food pounder and we didn't worry about it. After I called the breeder only then was it said that she is exclusive to asfs. I assumed she was a rat eater and that was my bad. I guess when I give advice about asfs this girl comes into mind. Just like any ball they can and will make food preferences. Asfs were not easy for us to get and they weren't cheap either. I choose to tell people that if you don't have easy access to asfs then to be aware of buying exclusive asf feeders, or making it a habit of feeding asfs.
Just what I've personally seen. This goes for any food source. Some will switch back and forth no problem. Others will Not. Unfortunately for some asfs are not as plentiful as others.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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Originally Posted by Homegrownscales

I agree. All balls have totally different personalities. My hatchlings have no problem going back and forth from whatever food source I want to feed them. Adults are not so quick to switch. I work closely with a business partner on a few projects. One of our co-owned snakes a lav albino female is about 2 years old. She was exclusively raised by her breeder on asfs. We got her when she was 9 months old. She will not feed on absolutely anything else but asfs. She is the only reason he has asfs and breeds them exclusively for her. Ultimately she will stay around with us. I think the thing that kind of irritated us was we didn't know until half a dozen refusals of rats. We were told she was a food pounder and we didn't worry about it. After I called the breeder only then was it said that she is exclusive to asfs. I assumed she was a rat eater and that was my bad. I guess when I give advice about asfs this girl comes into mind. Just like any ball they can and will make food preferences. Asfs were not easy for us to get and they weren't cheap either. I choose to tell people that if you don't have easy access to asfs then to be aware of buying exclusive asf feeders, or making it a habit of feeding asfs.
Just what I've personally seen. This goes for any food source. Some will switch back and forth no problem. Others will Not. Unfortunately for some asfs are not as plentiful as others.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

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Thanks for sharing your personal experience. This is the stuff I've been looking for. My older snakes have never had a problem switching back and forth. I will make a note, if I sell an older snake that has been fed exclusively on ASF's, then make sure to disclose it.

Right now, it isn't a problem because everything I've got is on regular rats, except for some of the babies. However, I plan on breeding my own food because I'm spending around $150 per month in rats right now. Anything I can do to reduce that would be good on my pocket. I've done regular rats, but they stink in the house and grow too fast. For babies, I think ASF's are the way to go. They are slow growers and once I get a good cycle going, I'll have my own baby food.

That is what is killing me right now. My regular supplier can not always get me mouse hoppers, but he can get pinkies. I have another source that sometimes has small ASF's. I don't want to rely on others for feeding these guys. I've put too much work into them.

Well, being a breeder, as well as a pet store that buys and sells ball pythons, I personally would never buy from someone who told me they started them on ASF's.
That being said, as long as you are up front to the potential buyer about what it has been fed, then, feel free...
But, with as many picky eater balls as I've had, why even chance the fact that it could get stuck on ASF's?

My personal opinion, if you have a "normal" ball python(don't mean morph), that will eat anything, then there is no problem with switching up the diet, it's actually probably a good idea... However, if you are breeding for future sale, baby ball pythons, why would you chance that it may get stuck?
Just my .02...

I have also had 100% success rate switching hatchlings that were fed or started on ASFs to rats. They have also grown to become great eaters (not ONE of our six holdbacks is a picky eater or refuses rats) and my final goal with all hatchlings whether started on mice or ASFs is to get them on rats before I sell them. I also had a juvenile switch from ASFs to rats. However, I agree, the older BPs haven't switch from ASFs although, I admit, not trying very hard to get them to switch because I have no intention of selling any of them and I breed my own ASFs.

ALSO a side note, it is my experience that a picky eater is a PICKY eater whether its with mice, rats or ASFs. And ASFs are IMO invaluable in this hobby.

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Originally Posted by jasbus

My personal opinion, if you have a "normal" ball python(don't mean morph), that will eat anything, then there is no problem with switching up the diet, it's actually probably a good idea... However, if you are breeding for future sale, baby ball pythons, why would you chance that it may get stuck?
Just my .02...

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Have you ever had a baby ball python that got "stuck"? I have mostly morphs (only a few normals) and none of them got "stuck", even the older snakes. I think the getting stuck idea is not as common as everyone thinks. That is why I started this thread. It seems to be a common thought that feeding a morph ball python will get them "imprinted" on ASF's only, but I have not seen proof yet. Nor, have I seen personal experiences that show anecdotal evidence - just opinion.

And, why would it be good for a normal but not a morph? I would think a morph eating on various rodents would be a good thing too.

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Originally Posted by jasbus

But, with as many picky eater balls as I've had, why even chance the fact that it could get stuck on ASF's?

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All out holdbacks are morphs or hets. I was never worried feeding them ASFs because they are morphs. And if you are in it to breed OR just have a pet BP why would you feed a picky eater rats or mice sporadicly and risk it being underfed rather than giving them ASFs and having big healthy breeders/pets?

The only argument against them in my book is availability. Which is pretty big if your supply isn't reliable. But breeding them is a breeze.


On another note WHY do pet store sell these things for and arm and a leg?!?! I used to get them from a breeder at a show for $2 a piece. The local store sells them for $6-$8!!

Well there has been many cases of "mousers" so it doesn't seem too beyond reason to think that there may be "asf-ers". I'll agree with you that I don't think it would be a problem switching a young ball between rodents, those things are just hardwired to stuff their faces. Not to slight anyone that does feed asfs, but I'll personally just pass an ad by if it mentions "feeding on asfs" or "mouser", as that is not what I feed my snakes. It would also be irresponsible of the seller if they didn't mention that the snake they're selling is feeding on asfs.

It's just one more issue when dealing with ball pythons. With so many breeders, and so many snakes available, it's wise for the consumer to be picky.

i switch everyone over to rat pup as soon as they can eat them. Id start them on them but as we all know theres not much movement with the pinks.

My local petstore ordered 1.2 asfs for us. That group cost us a bit over 45.00 with tax. A rat goes for 8.00. Its pretty rediculous. That is the only reason that I usually pass on ads for asf eaters. To have the small colony just for that 1 specific girl works well. We grow them out and freeze. Luckily she'll take ft so we will always have food for her.

With my collection I keep everyone on Rats and babies are switched over to rats and not sold until then. I would hate it if anyone had an issue going through the same thing we did with the lav girl. So i try and make things easy for others that my babies go to.

No matter what food source it is, I think any ball can get stuck on what they like and know. Older animals are more stuck in their ways than younger ones. I dont think it has anything to do with morph, wild type, its just each individual and what theyve known their entire lives.

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Originally Posted by Don

Have you ever had a baby ball python that got "stuck"? I have mostly morphs (only a few normals) and none of them got "stuck", even the older snakes. I think the getting stuck idea is not as common as everyone thinks. That is why I started this thread. It seems to be a common thought that feeding a morph ball python will get them "imprinted" on ASF's only, but I have not seen proof yet. Nor, have I seen personal experiences that show anecdotal evidence - just opinion.

And, why would it be good for a normal but not a morph? I would think a morph eating on various rodents would be a good thing too.

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By "normal", I meant, a ball python that will eat anything... Not, normal or morph...

Yes, I do have balls that are "stuck". LIke I said, it's not common, but why risk it on baby balls? I mean, if you are breeding, than obviously, you have access to a food source, so why not start them on a diet that anyone can get? Especially, if you plan on selling them... Like I said, this is just my opinion.

I have an 06 albino female, picky eater, had her since she was born, only eat gerbils, won't touch anything else. She has been so small her entire life, that I just bred her this past year(didn't take either)... She's only 12xxgrams, and she's stuck at that weight, won't move...
I have a mojave that will only eat mice. Tears them up, and he's a good eater, but only on mice.
And, a lesser platinum that eats only ASF. So, yes it is common, maybe not as bad as alot of people say, but, it happens.
I mean, you can do what ever you want, but this is just my way of thinking.

I sell baby balls in my store, and as sad as it is, the majority of them are sold to a first time reptile buyer. Personally, I'm not going to risk selling them a picky eater if I can do everything in my power to help it... I want them to enjoy the pet, and not have to worry about where they will get their next meal, should they move or whatever.
And, I will reiterate.... This is not a super common problem.... Just why poke a bear with a stick?

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Originally Posted by Don

Why? Have you had problems switching them over?

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My first clutch hatches in 2-3 weeks, so no, not personally, but why risk it when it's pretty easy to find live/frozen rats? If they won't eat rats I'll go out and buy mice hoppers to feed to them before I feed off my own ASFs. This misconception, true or not, is not going to go away. I don't want "ASF" anywhere near my feeding cards.

Jasbus just reinforced my feelings on this issue in his first post here. It would suck if it takes like 6 months to sell my babies just because their first 2-3 meals were ASF hoppers.

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Originally Posted by Jessica Loesch

I 100% support this post!

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+1

Ok I'm going to weigh in here on this.

• 2008 I hatched out 20 snakes, started them all on mice, 15 out of the 20 took rats after two meals and never looked back. 3 of the remaining 5 took longer to switch over, the last two haven't touched anything but mice from day one
• 2009 I hatched 30 snakes, some started with no problem on rats some took mice all of the switched over to rats after 2 meal's
• 2010 I hatched 30 snakes started every single one of the on ASF hoppers. Every single one of them ate the first time offered and switched to rats after their second meal and did just fine.
• 2011 I've hatched roughly 72 babies some have started on rats first meal some need mice to get going, all of my mousers so far have switched over just fine.

The biggest problem I have is with adults one more than one animal I have seen them go for long fasts and long time rat eaters go literally 6+ months off food ad only come back on after being offered ASF or mice. The problem is then that they seem ,most of the time, to get stuck on them. Now not all mind you but some do seem to get a taste for them and not want anything else. Only after breeding and laying eggs did two of mine switch from eating only ASF for 2+ years to eating rats again.

Babies due to their nature seem to be more eager to switch back and forth the ones that haven't I've notice have been trouble starters, at least for me.

My motto.. Feed them what they'll eat. But don't be shocked if you can't sell a mouser only snake or an ASF only snake.

With it being pretty common knowledge that a significant percentage of ball pythons are imprint feeders (regardless of prey type - I've seen rat feeders that wouldn't take mice), I really don't see any reason to feed ASF's to ball pythons unless they are WC individuals that will only eat those or gerbils. WC animals like that just aren't common enough in collections anymore for this "ASF fad" to have taken off like it seemingly has - especially considering the high price of ASF's, and their relatively poor availability in many places. It certainly doesn't help that ASF's are illegal to have in some states. This type of thing creates problems for potential customers, which is why I avoid ASF's. Even though some will switch to mice or rats with no problem, it just doesn't seem to be worth the risk to me when rats are simple for any keeper to obtain an inexpensive supply of.

I have some that have switched back and forth, but I have one female who latched onto ASF and won't let go. I've tried everything, and only ASF's work - and she has gone a LONG time without food. It's too risky for me to ever feed ASF's again.

I don't think the title of this thread will go away....
Maybe the "misconceptions" aren't so misconceiving afterall... Super common problem, no, but yes, it does happen.
Anyone want to buy an 06 albino stuck on gerbils, just as a say-so? j/k.... :O

Agree, my Bp's and Boas have all tasted asf's and will take to anything else I put in there. I have yet to see one go off feed yet so I don't know the frustration.

I have lots of Ball Pythons! I raise rats, mice, and Asf's. I feed my guys what ever I have a surplus of. I have never had any trouble switching. I received 6 babies right out of the egg last year. I started them all on asf's. I did not have any issues. I bought a 800 gram female that was raised on mice. She was my most difficult to switch, but she did.

I own 1 major problem child. It does not matter what you give her, she will only take food once a month. Maybe twice on a good month. The food also has to be left in overnight. She is around 500 grams. Her sister is 1800 grams.

I believe if a snake is going to be picky, it does not matter what you are feeding.

I have had hundreds of ball pythons over the years. Many have been from a local home based rescue that I run. I have had everything you can imagine come in... Some real horror stories. That said, here are the facts (in my experience).

1.) I have never had a snake that in time I could not get eating again.
2.) I feed asf rats because that is what ball pythons are supposed to eat.
3.) I have never been unable to switch a snake from ASF's to normal rats. or vice versa. If everything else is right, it isn't a problem.

Very good post! I also have had no problems doing the switch. I have fed ASFs a few times here and there, same for mice actually. I have a local supplier sometimes there is more demand than supply and it is a case of feed or not. I have picked up adult mice and sometimes ASFs.

I believe that ball pythons imprint food groups they seem to prefer one over another but at least in my experience they will eat what there is to eat if they are hungry. I believe the Barkers say 'happy healthy ball pythons will eat' sooner or later.... :P

Very informative thread. I have kind of an issue with the sentiment that I see a lot of people expressing, that all ball pythons are different. Certainly there is a range of personalities when it comes to these animals. That being said I think that the variety of experiences that people report are more likely the result of differences in the people caring for these snakes. When we hear two stories. One person says they have had problems switching their one or two snakes and another where someone says they have no issues with their 20 what should we think? I see a lot of people jumping to the conclusion that the person with two snakes has snakes that are different than the 20 the other person has. It seams far more likely that with some small changes the person with the troublesome snakes would have success. I don't have 20+ BP so I don't have the expertise but I do respect the expertise of those who do have large collections. I have seen some compelling evidence that mousers are very real. I have tons of warnings and no real evidence to support imprinting on gerbils. I have mixed evidence surrounding ASF imprinting but so far I am trusting that switching from ASF to rat is easy when compared to getting a mouser to take a rat.