Attention breeders in Florida...

This could really go in this section of forums or in the law section.... I just wanted to make sure that Florida breeders look at this and see how it can affect them. So I figured this was the best spot for that.

I had a visitor at my HOUSE yesterday morning. It was the local Florida Wildlife Commission investigator! He introduced himself, showed his badge and then asked to see my Florida license for selling wildlife in Florida. Safe to say my heart just about stopped... Especially when I saw his handcuffs on his belt!

I knew I had to have that license if I had snakes for sale at a pet shop or at a reptile show... But I thought private sales were a gray area that didn't really require the license. I WAS WRONG!!!!!

I immediately invited him into my home and showed him my entire collection. I showed him my racks, my hatchling racks, my incubator (filled with Bp eggs). I did this just to show him that I didn't have any restricted species.

I answered all of his questions honestly and apologized for not taking the time I should have to have a better understanding of the laws in regard to the private sales of ball pythons.

I'm not sure how exactly he was able to find out who I was or what I did or where I live. None of that matters though... I will never sell a snake without the proper licenses.

He came to fine me heavily. By Fl law he could have even put me in jail for up to 6 months! I was very lucky and he let me go with a serious warning. He was thankful for my cooperation in offering to show him everything I have. He also saw that I really didn't realize how bad what I was doing was!

Lessons learned:

you can not sell a ball python in Florida (even a single one, even privately) without breaking the law unless you have the required license.

You can not buy a ball python in Florida (not even a single one, even privately) without breaking the law unless the seller has the required license!

You better keep records. The Florida Wildlife Commission investigator can request to see all records showing where you acquired your snakes from to ensure you did not purchase any of them illegally (like buying from a private breeder without a valid license.)

Hope that everyone who needs to see this post sees it.

Mike cavanaugh

This could really go in this section of forums or in the law section.... I just wanted to make sure that Florida breeders look at this and see how it can affect them. So I figured this was the best spot for that.

I had a visitor at my HOUSE yesterday morning. It was the local Florida Wildlife Commission investigator! He introduced himself, showed his badge and then asked to see my Florida license for selling wildlife in Florida. Safe to say my heart just about stopped... Especially when I saw his handcuffs on his belt!

I knew I had to have that license if I had snakes for sale at a pet shop or at a reptile show... But I thought private sales were a gray area that didn't really require the license. I WAS WRONG!!!!!

I immediately invited him into my home and showed him my entire collection. I showed him my racks, my hatchling racks, my incubator (filled with Bp eggs). I did this just to show him that I didn't have any restricted species.

I answered all of his questions honestly and apologized for not taking the time I should have to have a better understanding of the laws in regard to the private sales of ball pythons.

I'm not sure how exactly he was able to find out who I was or what I did or where I live. None of that matters though... I will never sell a snake without the proper licenses.

He came to fine me heavily. By Fl law he could have even put me in jail for up to 6 months! I was very lucky and he let me go with a serious warning. He was thankful for my cooperation in offering to show him everything I have. He also saw that I really didn't realize how bad what I was doing was!

Lessons learned:

you can not sell a ball python in Florida (even a single one, even privately) without breaking the law unless you have the required license.

You can not buy a ball python in Florida (not even a single one, even privately) without breaking the law unless the seller has the required license!

You better keep records. The Florida Wildlife Commission investigator can request to see all records showing where you acquired your snakes from to ensure you did not purchase any of them illegally (like buying from a private breeder without a valid license.)

Hope that everyone who needs to see this post sees it.

Mike cavanaugh

Holy crap. Is all I've got to say


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

I thought that was a gray area too. SUCKS! What's the name of the permit? Can you apply online?

Yes you can apply on line... is i believe for selling Balls You need category III license

here is a link : http://myfwc.com/license/wildlife/captive-wildlife/

I'll be sending mine in this week :O, FWC trolls craigslist.

Glad to see the Florida still hard at work enforcing the laws after doing such a fine job with the Casey Anthony trial...

Speaking one Cavanaugh to another ;)

I just found out about this recently as well. I think I am good though. I already have a Class III for exhibit and sale for some of my ducks. I think I just have to add ball pythons to the species list when the time to renew comes. It's only $50 a year so it's not a big deal. The permit is very easy to get.

Yes, It's getting even weirder here in Florida! I went to the Tampa show yesterday to pick up feeders. I hadn't seen my feeder guy in a while, and was very surprised to find out he had sold off most of his snakes, would not be breeding/selling any more reptiles, and was in the process of cutting way back on his feeders (maybe getting out completely). He said he's now required to document the name and number of every buyer. That may be how you were found. Have you purchased an animal at a show recently?

So, for all you Florida herp owners - before you even think of breeding your animals, think - what will you do with the hatchlings? If you intend to keep every single one, that's okay. If you plan to enter into ANY transaction, get a Class III license first. Document the details of each transaction. If you don't want to do this, don't breed to sell or trade.

What a bunch of BS, just another way for them to get money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jjhall8

What a bunch of BS, just another way for them to get money.

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This is for years now.. they just step on enforcing that law more and more in recent years... and honestly this is not only Florida situation...
I'll bet every state have law regulating sales of wildlife.. and even if local law enforcement not knock to your door yet... that doesn't mean that You dont breaking the law selling Your snakes to a friend... without proper license...

And @ Mike... From what i heard.. CL Fauna and Kingsnake are more and more often monitored by Wildlife Officers ... If you have Facebook with You "reptile business" they can find You too... and this is probably how they found you.

$50 isn't so bad. If you want to breed and sell colubrids here in TN you have to fork over $250. :mad:

From the website;
E. Class III Wildlife
A permit is required for personal possession, exhibition or sale of Class III wildlife. Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.

There is no formal list of Class III species. You must check the lists of Class I, Class II, and species not requiring a permit to determine if an animal in question is a Class III species. Florida residents 16 years of age and older may apply for permit to possess, exhibit or sell Class III wildlife

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoFride08

From the website;
E. Class III Wildlife
A permit is required for personal possession,

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I think I'll get a class III permit, just to protect myself, even though mine are all pets (never been bred). :(

You can't apply online for the permit. You can print the document and mail it in(as far as my search on there showed).

Thanks for posting this, as I have had my permit for three years, but let it lapse last year because I didn't have anything to sell(lousy egg year). I'll have to reapply for mine.

Make sure you have your "escape plan" written up and kept handy in case they ask to see it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

You can't apply online for the permit. You can print the document and mail it in(as far as my search on there showed).

Thanks for posting this, as I have had my permit for three years, but let it lapse last year because I didn't have anything to sell(lousy egg year). I'll have to reapply for mine.

Make sure you have your "escape plan" written up and kept handy in case they ask to see it.

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Uhh You right my bad.. there is only links for regulations not on-line application in link I provided...

Mike,

I copied your post into the legislation forum as well to try and help spread the word.


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jjhall8

What a bunch of BS, just another way for them to get money.

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It could be a lot worse. Honestly I don't see a problem with requiring the license... I wish the law had been a little clearer.. It would have been great for it to say more directly something along the lines of "you can't sell a snake in Florida without this license, even privately" The clearer the law is stated, the less grey area... the easier it is to follow.

Keeping the records though is a different story. That is difficult to do with a large collection. Don't get me wrong, I am going to do it. But it is going to be a pain.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aes_Sidhe

This is for years now.. they just step on enforcing that law more and more in recent years... and honestly this is not only Florida situation...
I'll bet every state have law regulating sales of wildlife.. and even if local law enforcement not knock to your door yet... that doesn't mean that You dont breaking the law selling Your snakes to a friend... without proper license...

And @ Mike... From what i heard.. CL Fauna and Kingsnake are more and more often monitored by Wildlife Officers ... If you have Facebook with You "reptile business" they can find You too... and this is probably how they found you.

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Not every state required a licenses to sell. Some only require tax id if you plan to sell in your state at shows and what not. Other wise your either a business or hobby that pays taxes each year.



Whats FL law on people shipping to that state, does the person still require a licenses to acquire out of state snakes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Not every state required a licenses to sell. Some only require tax id if you plan to sell in your state at shows and what not. Other wise your either a business or hobby that pays taxes each year.



Whats FL law on people shipping to that state, does the person still require a licenses to acquire out of state snakes.

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Uhh I moved from Florida 2 years ago .. but from what I remember You for sure need Florida Category III license when you going to Florida Show and want to sell Your snakes there...
I dont know what law applies when you ship snake from out of state to Florida customer...

Thank you so much for this information! *note to self get proper license before selling ball pythons* knowing my luck I wont get a warning :colbert:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

You can not buy a ball python in Florida (not even a single one, even privately) without breaking the law unless the seller has the required license!

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Just out of curiosity, what does that mean for you as far as buying snakes from out of state?

what is the license is it.do you know what it cost?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FINGAZZ

what is the license is it.do you know what it cost?

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Class III licensing $50/yr

Quote:

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Originally Posted by llovelace

Class III licensing $50/yr

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thanks now how do i go about geting one.im on the fwc site but im lost.lol

Yeah. in most states you need a license to breed/sell any animal. I was in cali and it is the same deal, just they do not crack down as much since there is sooo many people.

thanks~

Thanks for the heads up...I just got a warning yesterday by FWC for fishing in a pond without a license.

Be aware that if you are applying for the Class III wildlife license to sell, you must also print out and fill out the "disaster plan" and send in just the first page, keeping all the other 7 pages for you at home. Also, send the application to the PO Box listed on top, NOT to the long address that the people in the office give you... and make out the check to FWC(which they don't mention).

Called Tallahassee four times just to understand the crazy paperwork!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aes_Sidhe

Yes you can apply on line... is i believe for selling Balls You need category III license

here is a link : http://myfwc.com/license/wildlife/captive-wildlife/

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But it says this:

"Note: To review Florida Statutes (FS) or rules in the Florida Administrative Code (FAC) please go to https://www.flrules.org

The following species do not require a permit for personal possession as long as no other Rule or Statute applies. Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:

a.Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)"

Ball Pythons are nonvenomous, unprotected, they are not listed under species of concern or conditional reptiles.....?:confused:

This is news to me and I usually follow the laws very carefully. I know a TON of people who buy and sell BPs on craigslist and I have never heard of a problem. Maybe I will contact them and get clarification on the issue.

You do NOT need a license to own... you DO need a license to SELL ball pythons in Florida.

I am so confused about this class 3 permit. For one there are two applications: no-cost personal pet, and one for public sales. Do I need to apply for both or does the second one cover personal sales?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tikigator

But it says this:

"Note: To review Florida Statutes (FS) or rules in the Florida Administrative Code (FAC) please go to https://www.flrules.org

The following species do not require a permit for personal possession as long as no other Rule or Statute applies. Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:

a.Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)"

Ball Pythons are nonvenomous, unprotected, they are not listed under species of concern or conditional reptiles.....?:confused:

This is news to me and I usually follow the laws very carefully. I know a TON of people who buy and sell BPs on craigslist and I have never heard of a problem. Maybe I will contact them and get clarification on the issue.

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Please do because this is making no sense to me.

does the BUYER need a permit (residence of Florida) if they are having a snake shiped in from another state ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

You do NOT need a license to own... you DO need a license to SELL ball pythons in Florida.

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Wolfy, I've looked into this last year when I sold a bumblebee. I don't see any law that requires a permit for the sale of a ball python or a western hognose (the only 2 species I looked at) in Florida unless the law was passed this year. Commercial sale is, of course, covered by the regular business license (license to operate a business in Florida).

Ball Python, in my understanding is covered under "Wildlife Not Requiring a Permit" under the group -
Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)

The only possible section that will prohibit sales of a Ball Python without a permit is under Class III Wildlife, but class III specifically states:

Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.

So, according to this section, Ball Pythons, being part of the list not requiring a permit for personal possession, does not require a special permit to sell.

What am I missing?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jyson

I am so confused about this class 3 permit. For one there are two applications: no-cost personal pet, and one for public sales. Do I need to apply for both or does the second one cover personal sales?



Please do because this is making no sense to me.

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Ball Python is not a Class III Wildlife.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thesnakepitt

does the BUYER need a permit (residence of Florida) if they are having a snake shiped in from another state ?

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The buyer is not required to have a permit.

I hope this has not already been asked, but what if you sell snakes from a different state to an individual living in Florida?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I hope this has not already been asked, but what if you sell snakes from a different state to an individual living in Florida?

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Wouldn't matter. IF there's a law that requires you to have a permit to sell a ball python in Florida, you cannot sell one in Florida without it. BUT, I still haven't found that regulation that requires a permit to sell a ball python in Florida and I've been searching all afternoon.

Of course, if you sold the snake to a Floridian in your state you're cool. Internet commerce to a Floridian will require a seller's permit if you delivered the snake to a Florida address.

Hope that makes sense.

Wolfy... okay I know you've been in contact with Tallahasee... But all I can find on ball pythons is this:

Non-native non-venomous snakes, other than the conditional reptiles, only require a License to Possess Wildlife for Exhibition or Public Sale if you wish to exhibit or sell them, regardless of size. For example: You do not need a permit to own a ball python for personal use (as a pet).

In the Q&A portion of the FWC site.

But, I re-read the regulation again and I just don't see where it states that you can't sell them without a permit unless I am misunderstanding this statement:

however, this section does not apply to any wildlife not protected by law and the rules of the commission

Did they list ball pythons as a protected species? Because, last I checked, they're only "keeping an eye" on the wildlife importation of ball pythons as they are depleting the native sources - but they haven't listed them in any protection status.

So, what did Tallahassee say? I mean - where does it list ball pythons as Class III wildlife?

Very helpful information, thanks! It'd really suck to have the man knockin at my door like that! :X

I have searched ALL afternoon and have found nothing that states it is illegal to have ball pythons in FL. HOWEVER.....here is something interesting that I think maybe needs to be clarified:

http://biztaxlaw.about.com/od/glossa...rnsepermit.htm

There is a difference between a LICENSE and a PERMIT. You must have a PERMIT to own a dangerous animal (venemous snake, endangered animal, etc). Ball pythons do not require a permit.

However, in order to SELL an animal you must have a LICENSE. I don't know the individual laws on this but I thought there was something about even selling dogs and cats, that legally you must have a breeders license to sell them. Now of course there is a fine line between "selling" and "rehoming". If you are breeding to sell...that is different than rehoming one animal.

And I think that's where things get confusing. I know a few breedes who have gotten busted on craigslist for breeding and selling dogs. They must have a kennel license with our county, and the must have a license to sell in the state of FL.

But Permits are different, permits are needed for exotic animals that may pose a threat or danger if not housed properly (certain species of huge snakes, wolves, bears, venemous snakes and insects, endangered fish, etc).

As far as Fish and Wildlife I have NO idea why they showed upto the OP's property to inspect UNLESS they thought perhaps he had Berms or other "reptiles requiring a permit".

I actually have a business license, so I am able to sell from my home. I cannot, however, do business IN my home (meaning I cannot have people come onto my property to do business (ie: pet store type selling). However I can sell online, etc.....I think a "license to sell" is something the county or government would care more about than FWC.

Ball pythons are class III wildlife. I asked him this exact question via email as I was filling out the application.

Anything that isn't a class I or class II is automatically considered a class III.

Because Ball pythons are not listed under I or II, they are class III.

It is conversations like this that end up leaving people confused about the laws.

Here are the facts:

It is illegal to sell a snake in the State of Florida without a license.

It is illegal to buy a snake form someone in the state of Florida that does not have a license.

You do not have to have a license to OWN a ball python as a pet in the state of Florida.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Ball pythons are class III wildlife. I asked him this exact question via email as I was filling out the application.

Anything that isn't a class I or class II is automatically considered a class III.

Because Ball pythons are not listed under I or II, they are class III.

It is conversations like this that end up leaving people confused about the laws.

Here are the facts:

It is illegal to sell a snake in the State of Florida without a license.


It is illegal to buy a snake form someone in the state of Florida that does not have a license.

You do not have to have a license to OWN a ball python as a pet in the state of Florida.

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Are you talking about a PERMIT or a LICENSE? So you are saying any animal not listed in I or II is automatically in III? So cats, dogs, fish, guinea pigs, parakeets? Somehow I find that hard to believe.

Class I and Class II are restricted species here in TN. You have to go through a lot of red tape and jump through a lot of hoops in order to keep an animal from either of those categories here. All other animals that are not specified in Class I and II are lumped into Class III. Class III covers everything else unless noted otherwise in the guidelines. I'd imagine that it's basically the same for FWC.

Yeah that's not right at all.. They're making the rules up as they go along and they should not be able to do that. So it's ok to change the rules for one animal but not another? Just add it here since it isn't listed there but don't do that with all animals.. Just the ones we don't really like and we know we can get money out of for fining all these people..

Cats and dogs etc etc are not "captive wildlife" but domestic pets. They are covered under other stuff. This is specifically "captive wildlife" licenses. There's a listing of species NOT covered under the "captive wildlife" designation.

*TAKEN FROM THE MYFWC.COM SITE*
The following species do not require a permit for personal possession as long as no other Rule or Statute applies. Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:

a.Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)
b.Gerbils, hedgehogs
c.Honey possums, sugar gliders
d.Shell parakeets
e.Rats and mice
f.Canaries
g.Moles; shrews
h.Rabbits
i.Squirrels; chipmunks
j.Ferrets (domestic; European)
k.Lovebirds
l.Guinea pigs
m.Cockatiels
n.Hamsters
o.Parrots
p.Finches
q.Myna birds
r.Toucans
s.Doves: ringed, ruddy, and diamond
t.Button quail
u.Prairie dogs
v.Chinchillas
Note: Camels, llamas, wild horses, jungle fowl, common guinea fowl and peafowl are considered domestic/domesticated species and do not require a permit. Ratites and bison possessed for farming purposes do not require a permit.

*BREAK*
A permit is required for personal possession, exhibition or sale of Class III wildlife. Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.

There is no formal list of Class III species. You must check the lists of Class I, Class II, and species not requiring a permit to determine if an animal in question is a Class III species.

*END QUOTED SECTION*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Cats and dogs etc etc are not "captive wildlife" but domestic pets. They are covered under other stuff. This is specifically "captive wildlife" licenses. There's a listing of species NOT covered under the "captive wildlife" designation.

*TAKEN FROM THE MYFWC.COM SITE*
The following species do not require a permit for personal possession as long as no other Rule or Statute applies. Examples include, but are not limited to, rules for Threatened or Endangered Species:

a.Reptiles or amphibians (nonvenomous, unprotected species that are NOT listed as endangered, threatened, species of special concern, conditional reptiles, or otherwise regulated)
b.Gerbils, hedgehogs
c.Honey possums, sugar gliders
d.Shell parakeets
e.Rats and mice
f.Canaries
g.Moles; shrews
h.Rabbits
i.Squirrels; chipmunks
j.Ferrets (domestic; European)
k.Lovebirds
l.Guinea pigs
m.Cockatiels
n.Hamsters
o.Parrots
p.Finches
q.Myna birds
r.Toucans
s.Doves: ringed, ruddy, and diamond
t.Button quail
u.Prairie dogs
v.Chinchillas
Note: Camels, llamas, wild horses, jungle fowl, common guinea fowl and peafowl are considered domestic/domesticated species and do not require a permit. Ratites and bison possessed for farming purposes do not require a permit.

*BREAK*
A permit is required for personal possession, exhibition or sale of Class III wildlife. Class III wildlife are all species not listed as Class I or Class II; and not among those species that are specifically listed as not requiring a permit for personal possession in rule 68A-6.0022, FAC.

There is no formal list of Class III species. You must check the lists of Class I, Class II, and species not requiring a permit to determine if an animal in question is a Class III species.

*END QUOTED SECTION*

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Why are wild horses considered a domesticated species?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mft62485

Why are wild horses considered a domesticated species?

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Because they are same specie as horses?? just they are live in the wild...

Only REAL wild horses are Tarpan (Europe) and Przewalski's Horse...Asia... You dont have true wild horses in America

Quote from wiki : The term "wild horse" is also used colloquially to refer to free roaming herds of feral horses such as the Mustang in the United States, the Brumby in Australia, and many others. These feral horses are untamed members of the domestic horse subspecies (Equus ferus caballus), and should not be confused with the two truly "wild" horse subspecies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tikigator

Are you talking about a PERMIT or a LICENSE? So you are saying any animal not listed in I or II is automatically in III? So cats, dogs, fish, guinea pigs, parakeets? Somehow I find that hard to believe.

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Yes theoretically You need a license to sell You Hamster your guinea pig parakeets beta fish to another person...

As wolfy said cats and dogs are "domesticated" animals and they are put in to different shelf but for SELLING anything what is not domesticated You need to have Proper LICENSE...

Why Do you Thing Craigslist have disclaimer that is NO ANIMAL SALES but adoptions ??

Wow, that's pretty scary. I had no idea that you need a license just to sell a BP in Florida. Sorry you had to be fined, but at least you're able to keep your snakes and didn't spend any time in jail.

I am glad that they're taking more interest in who owns/ sells herps without completely banning the animals. I'd rather see a few responsible people pay a fine for their animals than a bunch of idiotsrunning around unchecked and neglecting their snakes.

Charging a rehoming fee would be in violation of the law. I really think a trade could get you into trouble if the person you are trading with is not licensed to sell. Here in florida we are actually lucky that fwcc fights to protect its turf, it keeps the local municipalities from creating a ton of individual laws governing possession of wildlife like many of the northern states and cities.

Mike is very much correct in his simple 3 point breakdown of selling and possession of any reptile. 50 dollars is much cheaper than a court date or the threat of having your animals confiscated.