Hybrids

Simple question. What do you think about hybrids and those who keep and breed for them?

I wasn't really sure how to vote on this. There are some crosses that I like and others that I don't care for. I'm not a fan of BP and Blood crosses, but I love GTP and Carpet crosses....

as in like GTP carpet crosses? Or locality crosses like an Aru Merauke cross?

I voted :I do not like hybrids but will do business with those that keep/breed them with one small addition.. only ppl I know and trust..
I'm genetic purists...
Don't trust most ppl who try to mess with that stuff ... and I wanna be sure that snake I'm gonna hatch in the future from snakes i own is a snake i can 100% say is THAT Specie...

I tired for gtp x carpet this year with no success. Will be trying again next year. To me the argument against hybrids has always been pretty weak.

"what if a bad person misrepresents them" ....your letting "bad people" ruin it? so your also against hets, subtle morphs, lucys, ect.?

also the "its not natural" argument.... either is 99% of the pet trade, are you kidding me?

This is for any and all hybrids but I'm mostly talking about crossing things like balls with burms, carpets with gtp, bloods with balls, boas and anacondas, etc.

ahh. I dont mind locality crosses. In fact some of the GTP ones come out amazing looking. however other types of crosses i am a bit undecided on.

i voted "I like hybrids and want to keep them" because of GTP locality crosses.

I love cheynei x viridis crosses and might try for them in the future.

For me it depends on how dramatic.
If their in similar types I don't care ( boidae to boidae)
But I'm against ones like I saw on a local Craigslist of a Bp to a corn.

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Originally Posted by Maixx

For me it depends on how dramatic.
If their in similar types I don't care ( boidae to boidae)
But I'm against ones like I saw on a local Craigslist of a Bp to a corn.

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I didn't think that was possible. Aren't they too different to produce offspring?

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Originally Posted by Maixx

For me it depends on how dramatic.
If their in similar types I don't care ( boidae to boidae)
But I'm against ones like I saw on a local Craigslist of a Bp to a corn.

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Lol.... Not possible. ;)

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Originally Posted by ScottNBecky

Lol.... Not possible. ;)

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That's what I thought... I don't breed so I'm not sure how far you can hybrid.
but here's the post

http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/a...cornhybrid.jpg

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

I didn't think that was possible. Aren't they too different to produce offspring?

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x2

email him for pics... and then we can most likely tell you what it really is. also ask him for the story on it, he might actually think it is a hybrid and someone scammed him.

I'm not too particular. I just haven't seen too many hybrids that are all that awesome looking. Considering that the ones I like are burm/ball and other crazy "would never happen in REAL nature" kinds, they seem to have a very high difficulty in actually producing a living hybrid in the end. So mostly, it's a LOT of effort for something that makes me not too impressed... That isn't to say I wouldn't love a blood ball or some other cross, they just seem like a lot of time and work for the end result!

and yes, pics please. i want to see a ball/corn "hybrid"

Post is expired now, and no answer on the email.
The person is probably in the hospital now healing up from a rattlesnake bite.
"It looks like a rattlesnake minus the rattle..."

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

email him for pics... and then we can most likely tell you what it really is. also ask him for the story on it, he might actually think it is a hybrid and someone scammed him.

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There was a thread about this same CL post over on the corn snake forum a while ago. The person ended up sending pics to someone and it was just an extremely overweight anery corn snake.

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Originally Posted by Maixx

For me it depends on how dramatic.
If their in similar types I don't care ( boidae to boidae)
But I'm against ones like I saw on a local Craigslist of a Bp to a corn.

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LOL I saw this add, and a friend contacted the lady for pictures. Looked like it may have been just a corn, or a gopher. :rolleyes:

I am against hybrids for the simple fact that careless practice leads to muddy gene-pools.

Example: Google "Jungle Carpet Python" and see how many coastal/diamond intergrades pop-up as "Jungle."

Muts.

I don't like them personally and don't want them.

If someone else does...their thing, not mine. I loves teh morphs and I've talked to a few people who had the same dislike of morphs as I do of hybrids--freaks, polluting the gene pool, yada yada yada. World's big enough for all of us to do what we want if it's not hurting anyone else.

Would I do business with someone who kept them? Sure if the person was honest and didn't misrepresent hybrids as purebred specimens of a species.

Uhh i just saw Wall other day woma/ball and i could change my mind... that is amazing Animal...
But I'm still with Jerhart here...

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

I am against hybrids for the simple fact that careless practice leads to muddy gene-pools.

Example: Google "Jungle Carpet Python" and see how many coastal/diamond intergrades pop-up as "Jungle."

Muts.

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..except that carpet python intergrades aren't species-level hybrids, they're intergrades of different subspecies.

For that matter, lesser pastels (and plenty of other BP morph combos) could be called locality intergrades, as I have my suspicions that the founding individuals came from regionally separated locales of BPs.

For some reason, people don't seem to care about BP localities, and certainly there is no preference for western hognose snake localities. The latter is my biggest pet peeve, because the locality-based color variation in "normals" is huge, if the hobby cared about locality purity with western hoggies we could accomplish some seriously awesome projects. For the longest time, corn snake localities have been ignored as well, except for okeetees. I doubt most of the anti-intergrade guys even give a second thought to corn snake morphs that originate east of the Mississippi river vs corn snake morphs that originate west of the 'sippi. The only ones that people seem to care about are carpet pythons, GTPs, and boa constrictors.

I dont have an issue with hybrids so long as they are documented. I like to know what the snake actually is. In the case of locality subspecies with carpets or boas, there is such a range of sizes and colors just naturally, that they start to get mixed and muddled, and you can't tell if your snake is going to get 4 feet, or 12 feet.

I know that with most other species (e.g. some birds, mammals such as mules), the offspring are infertile if the species is seperate enough.... is this the case with bloods and balls? or carpets and balls? I see no harm in breeding for these hybrids, if the offspring can't reproduce.

I am also wondering about whether the offspring could reproduce or not. See, I love hybrids. I think they are simply stunning animals. I would love to breed for hybrids in the future, thus the need for this thread, but I was worried that if I got into keeping or breeding hybrids, that I wouldn't develop a very good reputation in the reptile community. A good 11% of people that have taken this poll would not do business with someone who keeps or breeds for hybrids. And that is just from a small sample. It might even be higher. I would hate to think that someone would not do business with me just because I keep or breed hybrid animals, especially if I was very very careful in my documentation and representation. I would never misrepresent an animal as something it wasn't, but I understand there are a lot of people out there who would not be as honest. And that ruins it for us that want to do the right thing and be honest with what we are producing. (We see the same thing with ball python morphs. Someone pays for a morph only to find out it is not what they paid for)

If I were to get into keeping or breeding hybrids, I would be incredibly careful to keep accurate documentation about what I'm breeding and the outcome. The only problem is, then when you sell those animals to others, you have no control over how they go about keeping or breeding such animals.

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Originally Posted by Anatopism

I know that with most other species (e.g. some birds, mammals such as mules), the offspring are infertile if the species is seperate enough.... is this the case with bloods and balls? or carpets and balls? I see no harm in breeding for these hybrids, if the offspring can't reproduce.

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kingsnake x corns I believe are fertile.

carpondros seem to have an inability to reproduce with other carpondros, but are capable of producing offspring with either parent species.

As far as the other hybrids, I know of no published attempts at further crossing.

Here's something to think about:

The more "different" two species are that can hybridize, typically the more unique the offspring look. It's impossible for someone to look at a wall python and think it is either parent species, or any other species for that matter.

The crosses I don't particularly think are good ideas (and typically don't look all that nice either) are things like angolans x balls and carpets x bredlis.

I like Hybrids with Reptiles. Only time i hate Hybrids is when it threatens the species or certain animal. Like with lions and tigers crosses. If the species is not pretty much going extinct and it causes no harm nor can it reproduce then i am fine with it. I do however like BallxBlood crosses =]

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Originally Posted by Aes_Sidhe

Uhh i just saw Wall other day woma/ball and i could change my mind... that is amazing Animal...
But I'm still with Jerhart here...

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oo where could i see this?

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Originally Posted by pinkeye714

oo where could i see this?

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http://tinyurl.com/3eqek2a

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

For that matter, lesser pastels (and plenty of other BP morph combos) could be called locality intergrades, as I have my suspicions that the founding individuals came from regionally separated locales of BPs.

For some reason, people don't seem to care about BP localities, and certainly there is no preference for western hognose snake localities. The latter is my biggest pet peeve, because the locality-based color variation in "normals" is huge, if the hobby cared about locality purity with western hoggies we could accomplish some seriously awesome projects. For the longest time, corn snake localities have been ignored as well, except for okeetees. I doubt most of the anti-intergrade guys even give a second thought to corn snake morphs that originate east of the Mississippi river vs corn snake morphs that originate west of the 'sippi. The only ones that people seem to care about are carpet pythons, GTPs, and boa constrictors.

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Ah, you've touched on a pet peeve of mine.

I'm a big fan of localities. I love locality pits, locality drys, locality pythons and locality boas. The fact that a bull snake from Colorado may only attain 4' in length or that a Kankakee bull has a great pattern is worth preserving. Ocean County Pines can attain great natural yellow coloration and other localities can turn brick red. On the same token, I'm very frustrated that the captive pool of Louisiana Pines is suspect because someone in the not too distant past tried to "improve" on them.

Then again I love the look of the silver bullet bull, the tiger bull and the specifically line bred reds. I love the morphs but I'm saddened that they have become the focus.

Our hobby often suffers because there is not a balance between breeding for color and maintaining locality type. Australian antaresia and aspidites pythons are a prime example. Our gene pool is so mixed that half the people can't tell a locality stimsons from a children's. The wonderful variance in woma locality type is lost because of our obsession with producing something that is pleasing to our eye -all at the expense of countless years of evolution.

We're seeing the same thing happening with drys right now - people crossing cribo localities to produce a lemon head or a predominantly yellow corais. No focus on breeding true to localities. Our captive yellow and black tail populations are rapidly becoming designer snakes.......

Now let's be clear, I'm gonna repeat that I am not against morphs and not necessarily against hybrids. I'm just saddened that there seems to be more of a focus on creating an animal that pleases our eyes than appreciating the wide palette provided by nature.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

http://tinyurl.com/3eqek2a

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lmgtfy... Rofl!!!

Good post skip! It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine that certain species in particular have no interest paid to them as far as localities are concerned.

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

http://tinyurl.com/3eqek2a

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:rofl::rofl:

That is awesome.

I like em and wanna breed em,

I'm trying for BloodBalls this year :).

Can you seriously cross a burmese with a ball? Ball with a corn? thats crazy had no idea you could do this.

Edit: Burmese x Ball = Burmball haha

I like hybrids. As long as people are responsible about breeding, keeping, and selling hybrids than I don't see a problem. Most people are not very responsible. I would like to have one but I would never breed hybrids.

Cheers.

I'm not disgusted by them, but I don't think they should be bred. Happening apon a wild hybrid is one thing, but I just don't see a reason to propagate them. Look at all the local varieties in color, pattern, size, and temperment you can find in some species. Then look at the varieties we've acheived through careful breeding. It's unfathomable. Do we really need to make the next step and create hybrids?

Also, even though morphs are "unnatural", at least we know exactly how to care for them and how they will behave. For example, a granite Burm and an albino will act similarly and have the same physical requirements, just as a pewter Ball and a spinner will act similarly and have the same physical requirements. But a hybrid? It's unpredictable. You can't go out some place and observe a wild Burmball to see how they behave and what they really need.

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Originally Posted by ekoplex

Can you seriously cross a burmese with a ball? Ball with a corn? thats crazy had no idea you could do this.

Edit: Burmese x Ball = Burmball haha

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Burmball.. yes

Ball x corn.. no, they are in completely different FAMILIES.

So far, pythons have surprised the herpetoculture community by having NUMEROUS hybridization successes among the family pythonidae, even crossing between different genii (plural of genus, if that wasn't clear).

The success rates on hybrid attempts between species that are genetically distant are very low.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

I tired for gtp x carpet this year with no success. Will be trying again next year. To me the argument against hybrids has always been pretty weak.

"what if a bad person misrepresents them" ....your letting "bad people" ruin it? so your also against hets, subtle morphs, lucys, ect.?

also the "its not natural" argument.... either is 99% of the pet trade, are you kidding me?

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how do you breed the two together i want to try them this season

Skiploader, I think part of the solution to this lies in encouraging the reptile community to keep better lineage records. Central lineage databases like iHerp or the Corn Snake Registry need to be USED...by every breeder.

There's nothing wrong with designer snakes from mixed localities, but we should be able to find pure ones, and trace their bloodline back to the WC individuals they descended from.

I think someone should cross a corn snake with an anaconda.

How did I miss this thread? I wish there was a hybrid section here... Anyway, I'm currently doing a hybrid project, and there's nothing easy about it. Its not like you just put 2snakes together and wala, you have a hybrid. I would not blacklist anyone that was involved in hybrids.
spooky

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Originally Posted by Wh00h0069

I think someone should cross a corn snake with an anaconda.

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Oh lord.. Lol! That reminds me.. Do you remember the person who posted something awhile ago about keeping a boa with a (I think it was a ball but I could be wrong) and they locked and they were all excited at the prospect of hybrids? Not taking into account the fact that one was an egg layer and one was a live bearer therefore it was impossible.

Lol :D

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Oh lord.. Lol! That reminds me.. Do you remember the person who posted something awhile ago about keeping a boa with a (I think it was a ball but I could be wrong) and they locked and they were all excited at the prospect of hybrids? Not taking into account the fact that one was an egg layer and one was a live bearer therefore it was impossible.

Lol :D

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:D No, but that don't surprise me. :rofl:

My next suggestion was going to be a kingsnake with a rattlesnake. lol

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Originally Posted by mr.spooky

How did I miss this thread? I wish there was a hybrid section here... Anyway, I'm currently doing a hybrid project, and there's nothing easy about it. Its not like you just put 2snakes together and wala, you have a hybrid. I would not blacklist anyone that was involved in hybrids.
spooky

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I wish you luck with your project this season. I'll be watching your hybrid thread for updates. :D