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Male and Female normals
I have a fairly large cage 4x2x2 that I keep two snakes in a male and a female. I have been told that it is not good to keep two snakes in the same tank/cage because they will go off their feed. Both of them eat well. My female was off her feed for about a month but that was before I got the male. Since then she and him are both eating. They both share the same hide and most of the time are laying together. Seems to be no friction between them at all. Look like a happily married couple. :)
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Use the search feature and you'll quickly see why it is NEVER a good idea to keep them together. Do more research.
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BPs are not social. They do not share the same hide because they like each other. They are competing for the best spot. The most secure area. The best hot spot. The best humid spot. Etc...
They are solitary animals until it is breeding season when males go looking for females inside their dens where they will literally fight other males for the female.
Have you seen the photos of cannibalism?? Rare but possible. And gruesome.
Do more research or you will end up with eggs that you won't know how to take care of or 2 sick snakes. If one gets sick, they will both get it.
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What do I search for? I have search for keeping snakes together, and found nothing.
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OK so I have read all the threads that were provided and still have many questions.
First how do you know the snakes are stressed?
What do they do that makes you think they are stressed?
Why have snakes if you are going to put them in Tupperware containers and hide them away?
Neither were competing for a hide, they were plenty of hides available. They choose to stay in a dark corner. The male would use the hide and the female would stay in the corner. Sometimes the female was in one hide and the male in the corner underneath plants. I feed them separately in a different tank.
I have separated them but will be doing more research as far as I can see and what I have read in the links provided it is more of a "I would not do it" then a real rule. I will continue to house them by themselves and build a divide for my cage. It is large enough to give each snake plenty of room for their own.
There does seem to be plenty of different answers for almost all questions from how much humidity to what is the correct temperature. I read one thread where the high side should be 92-95, I have been told by others that, that is way to high. I have also read that the temp should not fall below 80 but others have said falling to 75 is not a problem.
It seems asking questions and getting answers just bring more questions. :)
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People have successfully housed BPs together but it is not recommended. Some snakes are the exception but it is rare.
Most BPs honestly do better in tubs than tanks. Just asks the many members who have snakes who would not eat until they were moved to smaller enclosures and kept darker, warmer, and in more of a natural environment then in an open and exposed tank. They live most of their lives in a small hole in the ground or a termite mound. Females rarely leave if ample food wanders by often enough. Males wander more often.
We just try to give the best advice for the animal but if that's what yours is use to and it eats fine, then maybe change is not needed. Just be sure you do keep temps correct. I say 80 ambient/cool side and 90 hot/belly heat. Give or take a couple degrees. 60-70% humidity and a little higher during the week of shed.
But still, if one does happen to get an RI, the other will most likely get it having the same water bowl.
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I am reading and reading and learning. I have read the caresheet at least three times already. I am confused with two hides, a tank 36x18x12 for a adult snake with a water bowl and two hides seems a bit small to me. My temps are apparently were they need to be, but, my humidity is low. I am going to try switching from a heat light to a normal light. I am using a heating pad on medium heat under a carpet the female seems to like lying there and basking as the heat lamp is fairly close to the pad. On the other side I have three large potted plants arranged in a circle with a opening large enough for the snake/s to get through. They seem to prefer that to the hide. Maybe the humidity is higher there because of the plants.
I am going to continue to keep them separate for now because that seems to be the best advice until I do more research.
I am not ready for eggs at this time and hate for her to lay them and have to destroy them. My cage is 4feet by two feet by two feet high with a screened front. If I divide this in half will 2x2x2 be large enough for a adult snake? I will have a plant,water bowl and a small hide on each side. Each side will have it's own under the carpet heating pad. I find they are more easily to control then other types.
Thank you all for your answers even though some left more questions.
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Two hides are necessary for proper thermoregulation. They should be identical hides as they will choose security over safety, and if they favor one hide over the other it will prevent them from thermoregulating. Snakes are cold blooded, meaning they need a heat source and a cooler side. They adjust their own body temps, but they won't if they don't feel secure. The UTH should be on the outside of the tank, not on the inside. Also, be sure you are using a reasonably accurate device to measure temps and humidity. Search the forum for other people's setups for an idea of how it should be set up (in general). Obviously decorations and other "things" will vary, but the general setup should be very similar. I hope the UTH is on a thermostat, set to a degree, not a setting...
Edit: I wanted to add that the "whats the point of having a snake if you're just going to stuff it in a plastic bin" question is probably the first question and most asked question of people who are brand new. In my experience I started out thinking the same thing. After having food refusal and husbandry issues, a ton of trial and error and literally hundreds of dollars spent....I tried a DIY rack with 34 qt tubs. I can keep it set up just like a tank, two hides and a water dish. I was amazed how much more comfortable my snakes seemed, I haven't had a food refusal, and I had PERFECT sheds every single time. It's easier to have and keep proper husbandry in the "plastic bins", so we sacrifice trophy showing our snakes for their well being. I don't see much of a problem with that.
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While I agree that it can be done if done correctly it is usually alot more than just a good sized tank, heat, and a few hides. I think if you want to do and do it the correct way so much mire research, and talking to folks that actually do it for years with no issues and talk to them about their experiences. They I'm sure are out there. What I will say is that most multiple tanks are not done with balls. Balls are a solitary species. They are also a competitive species. They'll compete with their own kind for food, heat, hiding, security etc. They don't realize That you are providing it. For me personally, i find the husbandry is easier With tubs. Easier for me to provide all the correct heat, humidity etc.
Even though breakdowns don't have to be done often I do them about every 3 months it is easier with tubs. I've used tanks and a complete sanitization is a pita with a 20 gallon. But even harder with a multiple animal 50 gallon. I also like to record defecations,sheds, regurges, things like that. Who does it is never the question with a one animal set up. It's known. Illnesses are another factor. With a multiple tank you'll be treating both. With separate only one. It's a precaution I like to take. Especially with the cost of vets I'm not into paying double. There's also other factors like stress lowers their immune system making 1 susceptible for illness that the other could catch. Stress will often cause fasts. Not a good habit to get in to. Accidents can and will always happen with any animal. With reptiles especially they are all instinct. Oh I smell food need to eat. Bamm 1 accidentally grabbing and constricting the other. For me the risk out weighs the convenience, or show factor, whatever.
It doesn't add up to me. Anyways this is all my experiences. I've done a two animal setup. It didn't work. That Was in my very unknowing early days. I learned the hard way. Treating two Ris at the same time taught me immediately. I hope this helps.
Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com
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Re: Male and Female normals
Yes. It is a more of a "it can be done but not recommended" approach. Especially for beginners. I wrote a well received post a few weeks ago on the subject. It basically boils down to them not being social aside from breeding. The risks taken with multiple housing should be done fully educated. Zoos, universities, and advanced keepers such as ViperKeeper how multiples together. They have years if not decades of experience and understand the risks involved and are prepared to deal with them.
Most of us know the risks and chose not to take them.
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I'm also confuse about the carpet heat pad thing. Is that inside the tank? I'd take it out ASAP. I'd also be worried about a potential fire hazard. Fiber, heat , not good. Heat does need to be on a thermostat. They get hot like over 100.f hot. I've seen one clock in at 160.f. That will fry any herp.
Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com
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You say you think it's too small after cluttering it with hides and a water bowl... That's the point. BPs prefer small spaces. They are not a display snake like a boa or carpet python. Not in the slightest. A happy BP is a hidden BP. They spend their entire lives in a small underground rodent burrow or termite mound. They do not like wide open spaces.
That is why we are telling you that the majority of BPs, out of the thousands that are kept as pets out there, are not eating as well as they could or should be because they are not as comfortable and secure as they could be. The thing about BPs is you can not over feed them. Unlike most other snakes, you can feed a BP a proper sized meal every 5-6 days if you want, and if it will take it because at some point that BP will go on a fast. Wether it's a females 1000 gram fast, a males breeding season fast or anything in between, it will most likely happen. Other snakes can become obese but we want to fatten our BPs up. For some reason, they never seem to eat too much or get too fat as long as you put enough days between feedings to allow for digestion.
So if your snakes are long and slender and look snake-like, (your female at least) then they may not be the ideal size and weight and may not be eating as well as you think they are.
BPs do not show stress in the way that mammals would.
In terms of housing, BPs are the one snake where smaller is better. I would never say that for most other snakes.
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the heating pad that I am using has a auto shut off on it. Has five heat settings and I use the second one. Have been using that for almost two months now with no problem. Shuts off automatically, carpet feels slightly warm and not hot. By dividing the crate I will be putting a 2x2 piece of plywood covered on both sides with contact paper or maybe simply clutter the big one up with plants and water and hides etc. No problem with the tank it is small and with a water bowl and hide it is good.
Still have no idea how to tell if a snake is stressed or not. My male usually just stays in the hide while my female at night gets active and then settles down later in the evening.
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Re: Male and Female normals
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepsouth
the heating pad that I am using has a auto shut off on it. Has five heat settings and I use the second one. Have been using that for almost two months now with no problem. Shuts off automatically, carpet feels slightly warm and not hot. By dividing the crate I will be putting a 2x2 piece of plywood covered on both sides with contact paper or maybe simply clutter the big one up with plants and water and hides etc. No problem with the tank it is small and with a water bowl and hide it is good.
Still have no idea how to tell if a snake is stressed or not. My male usually just stays in the hide while my female at night gets active and then settles down later in the evening.
But how are you reading the temps? And if the carpet feels "slightly warm" that means it is warmer than 98.6 degrees, which is what temp your body runs....which is too hot for a ball python.
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I have a digital thermometer directly above the carpet that has the heating pad under it. By warm I mean when I put my hand on it, it feels warm. Like a warm towel. I have placed a thermometer on it and and it was only about 80 or so. Not to hot for the snake. Loves it and the basking light. Right now she is hide behind all the plants in a nice dark corner of the cage. She prefers that to her hide.
Based on a comment about my female I will be going and getting food tomorrow, she ate three days ago and he ate four days ago. I will try slightly larger prey this time.
I think by dividing the cage it will also help with my humidity problem. Since a large 4x2x2 is hard to heat and get proper moisture. Will keep everybody posted and thanks so much for all the help.
Please though somebody tell me how to tell if a snake is stressed.
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Just don't think that we are getting on you or anything. We really are just trying to help and I'm glad you're wanting to make some improvements.
For properly monitoring temps just run to Walmart and in the section where you find tools, paint, DIY, find the outdoor thermometers.. Look for the smallish grey rectangular one called the accurite weather station. It has a probe on a long cord. It reads 2 temps and the humidity. Place this directly inside the enclosure on the cool side. Put the probe on top of the heat mat on the hot side.
The "outside" temp on the screen will be the probe reading of the hot side. This should be 90 degrees give or take a couple degrees.
The "inside" temp will be your cool side/ambient temp reading which should be 80 degrees give or take.
The humidity should be at least 50% or above. 65-70% is preferable during the week of shedding.
If these temps are not reached and maintained, your snakes will be stressed. Wether they show signs or not. They will be unable to properly digest their food, fight off illness, and more likely to get an RI.
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The gauge you are talking about is what I have. I guess I should read directions on how to get two readings on it. It shows only one temp plus the time plus humidity. I have the probe on the wall just above the heating pad and it is reading between 80-85 and that is on medium heat. Will raise it to the third light and monitor heat every 15 minutes to see what it reads. Since the one that I purchased seems to only show one temp, will get another digital for the cool side to check that. Will get large tank correct prior to dividing it in half.
I am thinking of closing off bottom half of screen to see if I can raise humidity. Is not at 50 % even with misting. Although I had a BP many years ago for almost three years with nothing but a aquarium light and top on it and a glass bottom. Snake ate great, shed well and never had a problem.
I am not a breeder nor do I want to be. I am a photographer and have the snakes as props. All my models seem to want to shoot with snakes. :)
But since I have them I want to make sure they are healthy and happy.
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wow F thanks for the info. Just went and checked and sure enough two temps are available.
Inside 81.7
Outside 73.8
humidity is at 53.1%
That is with the heat lamp off and the heating pad down to one. So at level two I am thinking it will fall into the range you are talking about. Will keep you posted more tomorrow.
Again thanks for all the help
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Sounds like you want the heat higher on the warmest spot. 88 degrees is usually the lower recommended temp for belly heat with BPs. They can and often do prefer the cooler side, but the key point is that it is available for them at all times.
Most BPs do not drink right from their water dish, especially if the humidity is at the right point, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to give them fresh water two-three times a week. Occasionally I will refresh the water after having left it for a week and the snakes will be so excited and drink as soon as i put it down... Even if they hadn't cared for it the last time i refreshed it doesn't mean they won't need it the next day, or the next. This can also help explain why I, and some others don't house their snakes together. We can't read their minds and know what they like best but we can rely on accurate info about how they live in the wild and get their needs met.
Two snakes may do fine 364 days out of the year, but if one of those days they have an incident, or get sick, I'd rather have them separated. They don't really seem to benefit from being together unless you are having them mate. And mating has its own risks, which every keeper needs to keep in mind. I've taken care of many animals and most domestic pets do seem to like having company of some kind. Most of the reptiles I've known, snakes especially, seem to be most content and less at risk for health problems and competition, alone.
I'm posting the last few paragraphs more for anyone reading this thread, rather than the OP, since you seem to get why most people keep their BPs separate. But I don't mind repeating and backing up what others say if it gets the point across to other people who might be reading. There are definitely individuals that will be different. I know a bearded dragon who prefers his small cage with lots of social interaction over his huge, secluded cage. So it isn't impossible that some reptiles like company, but I've never met a ball that didn't seem to prefer its own small, dark, well hid cages over an open, specious cage. :D
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I am still keeping snakes separated at this time. Although I am finding through much reading and talking to pet store managers that it seems to be a practice. Managers have told me that they have housed male and females together for years with no problems as long as the cage is large enough and has plenty of hides and heat etc. Others have told me never.
So they seem to be happy both ate today so I will keep them separated based on recommendations from members.
Added cypress mulch and humidity has already climbed five degrees. Changed the heat lamp for a normal bulb also. Temp needs to be higher but working on humidity first and then temp. Again thanks for all the help and information.
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Re: Male and Female normals
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepsouth
I am still keeping snakes separated at this time. Although I am finding through much reading and talking to pet store managers that it seems to be a practice. Managers have told me that they have housed male and females together for years with no problems as long as the cage is large enough and has plenty of hides and heat etc. Others have told me never.
I must point out that the difference between "pet store managers" and people who do this as a first love and hobby is that we don't worry more about cost of housing than the actual well being of the animal.
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Most pet store managers don't know jack about reptiles. Or it could just be the ones around were I live. They always have the BPs piled in the same tanks no hides. Not bashing you just my experience. My Bps are in tubs so much easier to clean and care for. Housed separate. Good luck.
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the one that I have been talking to has numerous snakes in the shop. Each is in it's own tank and there are hides in each one. She has been extremely helpful in answering questions and when she does not know points me a direction. She amongst one other pointed me to this forum. So I trust her judgment.
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I'm glad you've separated. I hope you see that they seem to just do Better that way. My only concern is the heat pad you're using. Because it's giving off heat and there's moisture involved, it's a breeding ground for bacteria. Setting the animals up for bacterial infections. Heat and humidity= bacteria. The carpet Is just going to hold all of that in and will be impossible to sanitize regularly. My other concern is that the heat pad is in the tank. God forbid it ever malfunction the snakes would seriously get hurt/ killed. Condensation from humidity, dumped water bowl, even pee. Could cause a short and it to malfunction. Serious hazard in my opinion. Personally I would change that to an under tank heater attached to a thermostat. That will keep everyone much safer and it's the same concept without the bacteria play land/ fire hazard.
I'm glad things seem to be going well. I promise I'm not trying to harp on you. I'm all preventing possible problems. Much more worthwhile in the long run.
Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com
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Also signs of a stressed snake:
Roaming frantically
Striking without coiling or striking repeatedly
Not eating
Sometimes stress can cause secondary problems like Ris, Infections, other health issues.
Stress lower the immune system so the less stressed the snake is, The healthier they are.
Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com
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Homegrown, I do not have a tank. I have a custom made cage made out of of 1/2 plywood and covered on the inside with black contact paper. I cannot put the pad under the wood, it would have to be on high to get through half inch plywood a carpet and cypress chips.
I am open to suggestions other then putting it under the cage. The temperature inside the tank is now at 85 and humidity is between 53-60 percent. The high side is after misting. I turn on a red heat lamp at night to maintain temps. Cage is on sunny side of the wall so sun hits it almost all day long and maintains temps. Misting every couple of hours maintains humidity. Snake is using natural hide made up of real and silk plants creating a natural hide, comes out at night to bask under heat lamp.
Stress she does roam at night attempting to get out and moving around but, I think it is more of a natural instinct looking for prey and she is not striking or aggressive in any way. She is easily handled.
The heating pad is a commercial adult pad that has five settings on it. As stated previously it has a auto shut off and I have never put it on anything higher then the two setting.
I can remove the heating pad entirely and put a small heat lamp (red) over the hide to keep that area a bit warmer then the rest of the cage.
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I understand you've got the custom cage. Perhaps some modifications could be made. Maybe take out a square and fit it with a laminate tile or regular tile, maybe a peice of thinner wood. Then you could have it under The cage. Personally I wouldnt have the pad in the cage. It would always concern me. Again it's your cage your animals, but with mine it's not worth the risk it presents. I'm also a neat freak. Working with these animals for 6 years now on a daily basis I've learned that if you don't prevent the problems they will occur eventually. Poop will be quite hard to clean out of carpet and it will be pooped on. If the bacteria is there it only takes the smallest of lesions to cause scale rot, mouth rot, and bacterial infections. Much easier to prevent them getting any of these than curing them. Just my personal experience with caring for them. I've taken in many rescues as well and generally many of these snakes have many issues and illness' that could have been prevented. Why wait till a burn happens, or a bacterial infection? Just my take on it.
Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com
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tomorrow I will be taking the heating pad out and replacing it with a small 50 watt heat lamp (red) over the hide area that she has selected to stay in instead of her hide. With a humidifier in the cage and that it is becoming nice and cozy for her. This weekend I will be removing the carpet and replacing it with more cypress, much easier to clean. Also going to do some modifications to the cage so that I will be able to open it from the front and not from the top. Will be putting a hinge on the front screen so the entire cage will be easier to maintain.
Looking forward to building another one for the male next week sometime and since I have learned I will not be using plywood but a more expensive particle board and possibly a glass bottom.
Please visit my website for some great photos www.donbothemphotography.com
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If you go that route, plug it into a dimmer switch and fiddle with it until the hot side temp stays pretty even. Someday later on you should invest in either an under tank heater for reptiles and a digital thermostat (helix, herpstat, etc) to control it, or some flexwatt which is fairly easy to wire to a cord and then plug into the thermostat.
Otherwise, run the heat bulb on a dimmer and always have a spare bulb in your cabinet on hand for when one goes out. A lot of members here do use dimmers for lamps because they are inexpensive and easily purchased at a hardware or home store.
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I like the idea of a dimmer switch had not thought of that. Will do that. I think I might also put a dimmer of the main lamp to so I can keep it on at night but dim it so it is not as hot.
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