Some husbandry questions.... (Mainly to do with temps)

So if/when I get a baby ball python(trying not to get too hopefull) I plan on keeping him in a plastic 15q tub. And I have a few questions. ;)
1) Is a wider and shallower 15q tub better than a deeper and not as wide 15q tub?
2) http://www.reptilebasics.com/ve-100 is this a good thermostat? I'm looking for a proportional one, and if this isn't a proportional one, what is a good(fairly inexpensive) one?
3) What size and brand heat mat is best for that sized tub?
4)Is it easy to get a temperature gradient in a tub so small? If not, the ambient temp should be
85*f right?(If not please correct me!)
I think that's everything I wasn't sure of...

Nevermind on the 'if that thermo was proportional or not. I just saw it was on/off. Couldn't see that at first.
So I guess my question stands at'what is a fairly inexpensive but good quality proportional(sp? Too tired to check ATM..) thermo?

-Go with the wider, shallow tub. I have a 15qt tub that measures 16"L X 13"W X 6 & 5/8"T.

-The Under Tank Heater for a tub that size will need to be small. Either an UltraTherm or ZooMed in the 6" X 11" size, or an Exo-Terra Heatwave Desert in the 8" X 8" size. Or, ordering a piece of Flexwatt heat tape is also an option.

- Here are your choices for a proportional thermostat:

Reptile Basics- VE-200...$114.99
VE-300...$139.99

http://www.reptilebasics.com/thermostats


Helix- DBS 1000... $139.00

http://www.helixcontrols.com/DBS1000.htm

Spyder Robotics- Herpstat...$109.00
Herpstat II...$199.00
Herpstat Pro...$299.00

http://www.spyderrobotics.com/home/products.html

Vypyrz as usual has answered everything perfectly. I'll just pick up your last question.

A true temperature gradient (2" per degree) is not possible in a small tub. There is no exact evidence it is needed either. Providing a hot spot and cooler spot is enough. A gradient requires space and distance tubs in general drop off too fast and are too small.

Again it is not needed few people have a gradient most just have a hot spot and cool spot with little to no distance in between.

Ambient temps of 85 are on the high end of ok 79-85 for ambient air temps. I tend to try for the middle with temps rather than an end. It allows for fluctuations, inaccuracies.

My personal temps are cool side 80ºF hot side 90ºF and the ambient air temps are about 82ºF . The middle of the ranges. Little snakes often do a bit better with cooler temps (faster metabolism) so ranges like 78-80 C 88-90 H and ambients about the same are fine for little snakes as they grow temps can be raised a bit.

After a few months and you soon to have snake settles in and is eating for you. After you start to know it better you can adjust the temps based on the snake. If it is always seeking cool temps you can drop the cool side temps a touch if she starts to regulate some. If always on the heat raise the cool end temps. You can adjust for the individual, always maintain the hot spot just ensure it isn't too hot.

So I'd(of course) put the heat pad on the hot spot, and in a tub that small, it should help heat the rest of the cage up to that much? It only needs to be 78-80 on the cool side, so that should be easy enough to obtain...
And the hot side temp is just controlled by the thermostat.
Those are all good working thermostats I presume? If so, I just looked at and like the Spyder Robotics- Herpstat.
Feel like I'm forgetting something....
But anyway, thanks for the replies!

You have it :) I recommend heat tape also though. Where will the tub go?

More floor space is always better.

There are a few places the tub can go in my room... It just mainly depends on if my rat is still alive when I get the snake. If she isn't, then I have a whole table I can dedicate for the snake, if she is, I'll clear somewhere off. I have a spot by my bearded dragon, but It's by the hot side, and 1, the snake cage could make my bearded dragon cage too humid, 2) the light might disturb the snake 3) the heat lamp might dry out the snake cage.
So I guess not there. XD I normally find room.

Okay as long as it's on a nice surface and not on carpet or material or anything, I would totally go with the flexwatt heat tape. I got mine from big apple pet supply or whatever they are called.

Okay... Flexwatt heat tape... how much of it would I need and where would I put it?(*isanooobwhenitcomestoheatape*)

Flexwatt is fine or just a UTH or heat cable it really doen't matter much. Personally I'd not bother with flexwatt for a small tub. You would need a small bit (6" of 3" wide) and then to wire it and such it just isn't worth it for a small single tub. You will be upgrading the set up in 6 or 8 months so I world go uth the small ones and use it for warming rats... :D it is only 12 $ so not really a problem just grow the pad until you hit the larger tubs.

I like herpstats myself. The others are also have good reputations too I have used a helix and herpstats. Rich is great to deal with (VE200) so no issues there either basically similar units and features, it doesn't really matter much pick one.

You say warming rats with it... so like after I thaw it, put it on the heat pad for a bit so it warms up?

Yes.

And good point ... I just love flexwatt heat tape, but you're probably better off with just a heat pad. I just hate heat pads :)

Yup, I have a couple of small pads that I am no longer using for enclosures but I use them to bring F/T rats up to temp (90s) add a little blast to the head with a hair drier and done.

Flexwatt is great but for small bits it is more a pain than anything else.

Should I, then, for warming rats, buy 2 heat pads? They aren't too expensive, so that wouldn't be a problem, but I'm just a lil confused of in you put the rat on the heat pad in the cage or out of it on a seperate heating pad?

Hair drier works well you don't really need two I have 9 to feed so I like the head start on warming when it is a spare one then you might find a use for it. I'd rather than spend the cash on a second UTH use it for something else.

Alright, Thank you for the replies! You're very helpful.:D

i am using a 15qt right now just like you are planning. i think i only paid 5 bucks for it. i am using the ultatherm uth and a hydrofarm stat(hoping next month for a proportional) and i am having no problems at all. my hot is 91 and my cool is at 79. my ambient air is between 80 and 82. i have a very good electrical multimeter with temperature measurement probe that i use instead of a temp gun. my temperatures do fluctuate a degree up and down, i think that is from the on/off stat. i have my tub sitting on the bookcase. it fits perfectly between shelves :D

later, dave g

So your On/off one works fine? It's cheap. :3 I like that and I don't at the same time. How long have you had it? A 1 degree fluctuation doesn't seem that bad...
If it works fine, for the moment I might try to go with that one.
I think I'll have to end up paying for everything by myself.(Might try to get the snake itself for a bday present, since the reptile expo is 10 days before it)
So the cheaper the better, as long as it's good quality. ;)

I just read all the info on the hydrofarm stat! It seems great!
I think I'd go with that one. :3(cheaper than the proportional one I wanted)

i have had it up and running for 2 and a half weeks now. i ran it dry for a week and half. this is the first tub i have kept anything in. years ago i had a bp that i kept in a tank that worked fine but i started reading on here and decided to go the tub route and am very happy i did. very easy to set up and the temp and humidity are tons easier to keep good. i went with the hydrofarm after reading many others using it and it working for them. for the money you cant beat it to start with. it looks to be made a lot better than the other cheap ones i looked at, but time will tell of course.

good luck, dave

Alright, cool. :D Thanks so much for the reply! I think I'll start with that thermostat.

The on off types do best in somewhat stable temps and with heavier bottom containers (like glass or heavy plastic) They also work well with indirect heat. I don't own a hydrofarm but I do own a Johnson, it is great in indirect heat (the heater does not touch the enclosure directly. like in many racks) heater applied directly to a tub can be problematic.

The 1 degree shut down range isn't too bad add a 2º+/- error possibility to the probe it starts looking not as good. (all the major proportional manufacturers are +/-0.5ºF) the next thing is how fast does the unit react to the probe input the sample rate. The rate is not very fast so it allows full power on the mat to run for a min or so before it makes an adjustment. This in cool room conditions can cause a huge swing up and down. The set point is just an average temperature of dead max and off during the cycle. I don't know what the cycle rate for a hydrofarm is but as it is designed to heat soil it doesn't need to be short.

.....So......... is it one I could try or not? My room is normally 75* I think and gets maybe 69* at night... Not sure...
so... I dunno what one I should get. It seems there are lots of positve reviews from snake owners on that one. I'm just a little confused on where to put the probe. If I just put it on the heat mat under the cage itself and put the probe from the thermometer on the heat spot on the inside so I can read the mat temps and the substrate temps, and so the snake doesn't wrap around the stat probe and cause the temps to shoot up and burn it.
???

Like all things it has its own pros and cons you have to understand how it works. thin plastic with no buffer between the heating element and the snake means while the t-stat is at 100% power it will heat the enclosure to that temp quickly. If the heating element is on something that doesn't heat as quickly that short burst of heat get absorbed by the enclosure. The question of how quickly it switches on and off come in, is it faster or slower than the time it takes for the tub to transmit heat (very fast). Cold rooms compound this issue as they make the enclosure cool faster than the element does so it drops quickly and then requires the keeper to raise the set point as it is degrees cooler than expected which means longer 'on' times.

There are ways around this, mounting the heating element to a piece of glass and having that under the tub. It will heat the glass then radiate to the tub. That high temp spike can be eaten up by the glass. I would never use a on off type with a plastic tub when the heating element is attached directly to the tub unless the room is very warm (80ºf constant) as then it does not require much on time to get to 90ºF. It is a tool and like all others is good for somethings and not so good for others.

Ahh, I understand now. :/ S'pose that means I'll have to get the herpstat anyway....

herpstats are very versatile. The on off systems work really well under regular conditions and with so thermal mass not so well with out any mass and really irregular systems. They can be made to work you could attach the uth to a bit of glass and place the tub on that. A herpstat doesn't care much it will handle what you toss at it, same for the other proportional units basically they are the same.

I think it might be easier to go with something like the herpstats. I know it will work with my plastic tub, so I think I should go with something I can trust, even for the extra price. More can be better in the long run.