Is this project worth pursuing?( warning, dead baby pics!)

Alright, so here's the scoop on this clutch.... it was a huge disaster!
I started out with 8 eggs from a nice looking normal x spider. Half way through incubation one of the eggs died. Another baby died trying to hatch early (43 days in).
So I was left with 6 good eggs. On day 52 they began to pip, so I cut the rest to find a dead normal and a dead spider. So now I'm left with 4 babies in eggs, one spider, 2 normals, and "something else". Well, the spider tried to crawl out, but it had the umbilicus wrapped around it's body so I tried to unwrap it and ended up having to cut and tie it off because the umbilicus had actually tied into a knot. I'm not sure if it's going to live or not, but he's a fighter.
Another normal crawled out and died later in the day. So now I have 1 normal and "something else" in the eggs and a spider that may or may not live.
Wait.... it get's better!!
So today I come home from work and check on everyone, the spider's still clinging to life and the "normal" had crawled out of his egg and is doing good. So I check the last baby, the "something else", and it's dead in the egg:tears::tears: I pull it out and it had the umbilicus wrapped around it's neck.

Here's where my dilemma comes in. I'm not sure at all what this baby was, but it's cool looking. The "normal" sibling has some similarities, but nothing as extreme. The spider is interesting looking with a weird head pattern and color.
So, knowing what a train wreck this clutch was, do I try this same pairing next year or no?

Let me know what you guys think!!

The "something else" that didn't make it
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/P6211225.jpg
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/P6211222.jpg
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/P6211223.jpg
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/P6211224.jpg
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/P6211228.jpg

The two remaining babies
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/P6211230.jpg

closeup of the spider's head
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/P6211231.jpg

"normal" sibling with spot on it's head and neck tripe similar to the dead baby
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/P6211233.jpg

It may also be worth mentioning that the last clutch this female laid was 2 years ago and I got an AMAZING looking pastel and another "normal" with a spot on her head
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/P8300398.jpg
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/P8310406.jpg

Thanks for looking!

sorry for the bad luck, its an interesting looking baby. How did her clutch do 2 years ago, in terms of survival or loss of eggs?

Wow that's tough losing so many of them. I'm sorry you had such bad luck, but at least the 2 survived. Did you have a lot of temp fluctuation during incubation?

As far as trying again, I guess it depends if you think it is worth the time and money. If the spot on the head is genetic, you could possibly unlock a gene and get a suprise... I think I would try again :)

You have a very nice spider, and a killer pastel by the way!

Do you have any pictures of the dam on this clutch?

Personally, with two babies that appeared "off" or similarly marked, I'd say it's worth maybe giving her another go.

Looks like you may have some kind of fader gene in there. I'm sorry about the clutch. This female has bred and laid 2 good clutches. Sounds like something is going on during incubation that's causing the developmental stuff. I would say triple check your incubation husbandry and give it another go!
If it is a fader gene, a male yellowbelly combo or single gene or lesser/lesser combo male would be a cool pairing.

Jim

The incubation process has been the same for every clutch for the last 3 years. All the other clutches have been normal and healthy. The last time this female laid eggs there were 7 in the beginning but 4 died right off the bat.
here's mom
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/P5050111.jpg

WOW, I like mom!!! I'd try again

Quote:

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Originally Posted by herpchick

The incubation process has been the same for every clutch for the last 3 years. All the other clutches have been normal and healthy. The last time this female laid eggs there were 7 in the beginning but 4 died right off the bat.
here's mom
http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o...e/P5050111.jpg

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Mom looks good. Especially if she produced that pastel you showed us. Try again!!

Is the spider kinked? It looks like it has a mild spine kink. Those 2 survivors look like preemies. Small heads with no fat reserve.

Honestly I don't know.. If there was no problem w incubation then it could be a fluke or a genetic problem. The only way you'll know is to try one more time and see what happens.

the sweet pastel you showed a picture of looks almost like a pastel vanilla. and the one baby "normal" has some awesome characteristics as well. head spots are indicative of vanillas as well. mom doesnt look like an adult vanilla though, maybe on the same allele??? id breed her to the pastel again...lol
i agree both babies look like premee's hope they make it. i think you have something special with the mom going on though.
adam jeffery

Id try again for sure, very nice animals were hatched even though you had those issues, im sure itd be best to try at least one more time. The spots on the head are cool especially with the normal that had it on the head and neck, makes it look like it got moved out of the head and placed on the neck...good luck

I'd try again for sure, the pastel reminds me of a pastel spector, maybe try her to a yellow belly or pastel yellow belly! I'm sure she would make insane enchi's as well. Best of luck, I'll be watching her, I think you got something there! ~Caylan.S.~

Thanks for the input everyone!
Both of the babies are definitely preemie looking, that I completely agree with. I'm not 100% why though? The spider I'm sure is because the umbilicus was tied and wrapped around his body so he didn't absorb any of the yolk. The other one though only absorbed a small amount of yolk before it crawled out.
I'm currently in the process of trying to get a male enchi, so I think if that comes through I'll try with this female to an enchi next year. I agree that if there is something there it's definitely with the mom, but if the next clutch has similar issues I think I'll just retire her from breeding!
The spider isn't kinked at all. I think it's just a combination of the pic and his little preemie thinness. I keep expecting everyday to come home from work and find him dead, but he's a fighter. I'll keep everyone updated on how things go with the babies.

aww such a sad turn of events there.
i'm rootin' for that little spider :P! if he survives, you should hold him back and name him trooper or something strong-sounding. :gj:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

Honestly I don't know.. If there was no problem w incubation then it could be a fluke or a genetic problem. The only way you'll know is to try one more time and see what happens.

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I agree with this 100%. It looks like you may have something cool going on genetically with the similar pattern markers, and that in itself would be worth perusing IMO. (She's also a lovely girl to just keep around for the heck of it.) However, the wrench in it is that it also seems like you may have some genetic defect going on as well that seems to be killing off a lot of her offspring. It seems that it would lie with her since you must've used different males both years.

So, I would definitely breed her again -- hoping that you get more neat-patterned babies, but prepared to consider retiring this girl from breeding if you get more dead eggs and babies.

Good luck!!

I would say try again because that's the only way you'll know if it's something genetic or just bad luck. The offspring looked amazing too, so I think they're worth a shot. Or you could try the same project with a different spider male and see if the same thing happens - i.e. if you get the same phenotypes or if a lot of the offspring have issues.

I agree, try again with a different male. The pastel looks very healthy and robust. She is too pretty to give up on. :gj:

Good luck with the survivors, I'm rooting for them!