Tofee and Albino Compatible!

hey everyone was just looking at some you tube videos and saw this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TYXSxHfXi0

wow never herd of this, awesome, guess that explains why they look like albinos as babies, now we just need to prove toffee and candy

Oh my god. I thought it was compatable with the Lavender gene. Now is Albino. WOW

Really want to see how it looks when he/she comes out of the egg.

What if the het toffee was also a het albino?

While I do think he most likely is correct it will take a few more breedings to say for sure.

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Originally Posted by garweft

What if the het toffee was also a het albino?

While I do think he most likely is correct it will take a few more breedings to say for sure.

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Would like to add that I think it's great that he is willing to share this instead of keeping it quiet thinking it might hurt the market.

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Originally Posted by mc5guy

Oh my god. I thought it was compatable with the Lavender gene. Now is Albino. WOW

Really want to see how it looks when he/she comes out of the egg.

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If its compatible with albino, its not with lav albino

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

If its compatible with albino, its not with lav albino

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Can't realy say that now can we? It's possible the male was a double het anyways and not compatible. If it is compatible that doesn't mean that it can't be compatible with the other morph.

In case anyone missed it it's been announced by a guy in Canada that he did the exact same thing last year (only sorta on accident) and it's grown up looking like the Toffees do. I feel that this makes it officially compatible.

http://www.reptilescanada.com/forums...5&postcount=10

Also we know that Albinos and Lavenders are NOT compatible so I feel that is unlikely that the Toffees/Candies are compatible with Lavender Albinos.

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...ad.php?t=30005

Possible Gerrick's was a double het but this isn't the first time someone has created a Toffee/Albino. Check out the other thread.

I strongly feel that with that 3rd party coming forward that it makes it official that the two projects, though not the same, are compatible. In my eyes that's a kick square in the nuts of the Toffee/Candy Project.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

In case anyone missed it it's been announced by a guy in Canada that he did the exact same thing last year (only sorta on accident) and it's grown up looking like the Toffees do. I feel that this makes it officially compatible.

http://www.reptilescanada.com/forums...5&postcount=10

Also we know that Albinos and Lavenders are NOT compatible so I feel that is unlikely that the Toffees/Candies are compatible with Lavender Albinos.

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I hear what you are saying about Albinos and Lavenders not being compatible, but that does not mean that another morph could not be compatible with both. Like a new hidden gene. It is possible for one to be compatible with both. Guess we will have to wait and see what happens with this project.

What exactly does this mean...? That toffee x albino= albino? Thats an expensive way to make an albino

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Originally Posted by that_dc5

What exactly does this mean...? That toffee x albino= albino? Thats an expensive way to make an albino

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Actually this isn't anything new in the reptile industry. The same thing happens with Reticulated Pythons and the White, Lavender & Purple Phase Albinos. They're all different but they're all compatible with each other. And if it's anything like the Retics were then the prices will still vary based on newness & supply/demand.

I remember when Purple Albino Retics were twice as much as "Lavender" Albino Retics (Because Lav albino retics were the 'regular' albino retic at the time).

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

I hear what you are saying about Albinos and Lavenders not being compatible, but that does not mean that another morph could not be compatible with both. Like a new hidden gene. It is possible for one to be compatible with both. Guess we will have to wait and see what happens with this project.

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Except that isn't how Genetics work. I'd say this is far more similar to the Black Pastels, Cinnamons & Mojaves, Mystics, Phantoms, Lessers, & Butters; where you have two different looking animals that appear to be genetically compatible. Another solid example is Ben Seigel's Orangebelly's. They're compatible with regular Yellowbellys but only Orangebellys can make Graphite Ivories.

Genetics is not as difficult as people like to imagine it is. It's really more so about what we haven't bred together yet vs what we think we know. However we can make reasonable conclusions based on previous breeding attempts that lead to either Success or Failure.

Besides we already have a recessive mutation that does something very similar: Hypos. You have Butterscotch Hypos, Orange Ghost (Hypos) etc and they're compatible but not the same. However Green Hypos & Blue Hypos and a couple of WC lines of Hypo are not compatible with those two, however that doesn't NOT make them Hypomelanistic it's just a different means to the same End. The same could be said for Axanthics as well.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

In my eyes that's a kick square in the nuts of the Toffee/Candy Project.

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Yes and no, you still need Toffees to make het Toffees to pair with Albinos/het Albinos. Since there are only a limited number of breeders working with Toffees they can still control the market. Also, there will eventually have to be a way of tracking how pure the Toffee gene is in each animal, Toffee x Toffee - 100% Toffee, Toffee x Albino - 50% Toffee, etc. So higher %s will be more $. That's how I take it anyway.

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Originally Posted by that_dc5

What exactly does this mean...? That toffee x albino= albino? Thats an expensive way to make an albino

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Toffee x Albino/Het Albino = Toffee or so it seems (I like the Toffino name, lol). They may not fully mature to be as colorful as regular Toffees though, time will tell.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

Except that isn't how Genetics work. I'd say this is far more similar to the Black Pastels, Cinnamons & Mojaves, Mystics, Phantoms, Lessers, & Butters; where you have two different looking animals that appear to be genetically compatible. Another solid example is Ben Seigel's Orangebelly's. They're compatible with regular Yellowbellys but only Orangebellys can make Graphite Ivories.

Genetics is not as difficult as people like to imagine it is. It's really more so about what we haven't bred together yet vs what we think we know. However we can make reasonable conclusions based on previous breeding attempts that lead to either Success or Failure.

Besides we already have a recessive mutation that does something very similar: Hypos. You have Butterscotch Hypos, Orange Ghost (Hypos) etc and they're compatible but not the same. However Green Hypos & Blue Hypos and a couple of WC lines of Hypo are not compatible with those two, however that doesn't NOT make them Hypomelanistic it's just a different means to the same End. The same could be said for Axanthics as well.

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It is possible to be compatible with both, that is how genetics work. You can't say it isn't possible untill it is proven other wise. I am not saying they are.... but it is a possibility.

Also there are some Green Hypos that are compatible with the other lines.

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

It is possible to be compatible with both, that is how genetics work. You can't say it isn't possible untill it is proven other wise. I am not saying they are.... but it is a possibility.

Also there are some Green Hypos that are compatible with the other lines.

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The evidence suggests that they would not be compatible. I feel comfortable with saying that they are not. Since Albinos are Not Compatible with Lavender Albinos then it is a safe bet that Lavender Albinos are Not Compatible with Toffees. The genetic door way doesn't swing 1 way on color mutations. The Lavender is to Albinos what the Ultramel is to Caramels. Except unlike Caramels there is not another morph that is known that is visually different yet still compatible.

I wouldn't be saying this if we didn't already know for a fact that Lavenders are not compatible with Albinos.

And what Green Hypos are you referring to? The only Green Hypos I know of are Greg Graziani's line and they're not compatible with any other Hypo Line especially the 2 most common which are the Orange Ghost and Butterscotch Hypo.

Just a shot in the dark here but could the toffee be two genes in play ? Albino and Toffee so they are infact Double Hets, Would explain why it's compatable with the Albino. Just like the leopards at the moment people think they are all het pied and come from the pied gene.

Or it could just be that his het toffee is het albino, I wouldn't be saying anything until more test breedings been done. But would be strange if these albinos turn out to be toffees and all you need is a het toffee and an albino to produce them ;)

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Originally Posted by TessadasExotics

It is possible to be compatible with both, that is how genetics work. You can't say it isn't possible untill it is proven other wise. I am not saying they are.... but it is a possibility.

Also there are some Green Hypos that are compatible with the other lines.

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We have this thing called a locus, this is were said morphs sits, albino and lav albino have already been proven NOT to sit on the same locus and assuming we don't have a dbl het, this guy proves albino and toffee DO sit on the same locus (aka compatible). therefore it cannot be compatible with lav albino since it does not sit on the same locus.

You can never 100% prove anything is what it is, we base what is "fact" off statistics, chance of the guy having a dbl het male unknowingly from a breeder from a toffee project, really low.... so now their compatible until proven otherwise.

there a multiple lines of green hypo, hence the confusion of some being compatible and some not.

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Originally Posted by Tempestas

Just a shot in the dark here but could the toffee be two genes in play ? Albino and Toffee so they are infact Double Hets, Would explain why it's compatable with the Albino. Just like the leopards at the moment people think they are all het pied and come from the pied gene.

Or it could just be that his het toffee is het albino, I wouldn't be saying anything until more test breedings been done. But would be strange if these albinos turn out to be toffees and all you need is a het toffee and an albino to produce them ;)

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As mentioned earlier in this thread another guy in Canada did the same thing last year and revealed it after Garrick posted his video. It isn't a matter of double hets, they are simply compatible.

I recommend everyone to look into White, Lavender & Purple Phase retics, it's basically the same thing.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

As mentioned earlier in this thread another guy in Canada did the same thing last year and revealed it after Garrick posted his video. It isn't a matter of double hets, they are simply compatible.

I recommend everyone to look into White, Lavender & Purple Phase retics, it's basically the same thing.

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Ahh I see what you mean now I didn't notice another person had done it ( My bad ) The joys of genetics me thinks :) I wonder if they will present theirselves like toffees when older or just stay plain albino. Would be imense if the toffee colouration is a seperate gene altogether.

The best thing about this hobby is something always pops up and you can never expect anything to go smoothly :)

Soooooo.... how much are male toffee hets going for these days? :D

Just opinion here.

How many het albinos were sold as a part of a het Toffee pair? It would be easy for someone to sell a Het Toffee for $3500 and then sell you a Het Albino (worth $100) as a Het Toffee female priced at $7500, or whatever it was. You think you got a pair of Het Toffee balls for $10,000 and in reality you just got a Het Toffee and $100 Het Albino! You’d never know…

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Originally Posted by AaronP

I strongly feel that with that 3rd party coming forward that it makes it official that the two projects, though not the same, are compatible. In my eyes that's a kick square in the nuts of the Toffee/Candy Project.

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I think it's been official for quite some time.... I would assume Garrick did these pairings with 3 het albino females after he heard the "rumors" that were going around about this for quite some time now.

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Originally Posted by MarkieJ

Soooooo.... how much are male toffee hets going for these days? :D

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A lot more than females will be now....

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Originally Posted by Ace of Snakes

Just opinion here.

How many het albinos were sold as a part of a het Toffee pair? It would be easy for someone to sell a Het Toffee for $3500 and then sell you a Het Albino (worth $100) as a Het Toffee female priced at $7500, or whatever it was. You think you got a pair of Het Toffee balls for $10,000 and in reality you just got a Het Toffee and $100 Het Albino! You’d never know…

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That's when you get your hets from a breeding that was done with two het toffees or a visual and a het and not s cross breeding with the albino gene. Get documentation for them and if the offspring don't turn out to be toffees you call up the breeder and get your money back or another animal.
That's one thing about this discovery is it will dilute the toffee gene. So your hets from a clutch of het albino to het toffee or even a visual toffee you won't know what they are het for. You will get normals and hets for albino hets for toffee and double hets. Then as stated before will the visuals produced be albino or toffee and is toffee will they have the same color as a pure blood toffee or if it's albino will it change the appearance of it ect...

With compatibility mentioned like cinnamonxblack pastel, most of those are visual morphs that were mentioned. Being a recessive morph, there would be no way to tell which were het albino and which were het toffee. As someone said, this could create a bit of confusion when selling them. IMO i think it would be best to stay with het toffeexhet toffee, just so that you know what you are getting and to avoid confusion. Just my $0.02.

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Originally Posted by J.Vandegrift

I think it's been official for quite some time.... I would assume Garrick did these pairings with 3 het albino females after he heard the "rumors" that were going around about this for quite some time now.

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I guess the correct way to put it would be "Publicly Official" :). You making anymore Lavs this year John?

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Originally Posted by AaronP

I guess the correct way to put it would be "Publicly Official" :). You making anymore Lavs this year John?

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Not this year. Been kind of a crappy season for me aside from the ultramel clutch.

If a toffee to albino or a Toffee to a lavender makes adult looking toffees, then The clear winner here is the reg $300-$400 Albinos. I do believe this is so. Rumors eventually always come out to be true.

Sorry for the OP, but does VPI's burgundy albino have any relationship with the toffee? They do look quite similar to me in their adult stage.