Help me See If I got the right Morph :D

I was interested at a snake at our local repticon and the individual had it listed as a Male " Tiger Axanthic Paradox "

What do you say?
I see some metallic Blue Sheen
http://img.lulz.net/src/uptime.JPG

http://img.lulz.net/src/nommers.JPG

Grey and Black here
http://img.lulz.net/src/IMG_0602.JPG

http://img.lulz.net/src/IMG_0603.JPG

honestly, i see a verry grey normal... But for that price, really not an axanthic.
But im still new to the hobby so i'm gonna leave the experts talking!

Its Hard to take a picture of him, where he doesn't show the grey and blacks instead of brown.

I thought the whole Blue Colored Sheen / Metallic / Primary Greys and Blacks looking stuff was a trait of axanthic

Mine have that blue screen to when there just out of shed...
But i repeat, i'm really not an expert!!!! i could be a thousand miles away of the real morph :)
but its a beautifull bp, thats for shure!

I purchased this from "TheSnakeMachine" at the Columbia Repticon last Sunday. $250, I heard he is a pretty reputable dealer.

Hi,

I'd say it isn't a USA tiger (desert enchi ) but it might be a European tiger (reduced pattern ). It seems to have a few too many alien heads though.

It isn't a paradox that I can see - can you take pictures of the area that looks different to the rest of the snake for us?

And it doesn't look like much of an axanthic to me either. But I suck at spotting those so wait for more input.

Did you buy it and if so how much did you pay?


dr del

Looks like a normal from here.

Hi,

There is certainly no reason to mistrust Michael Jolliff though as he has a fairly good name as far as I have heard.

I'd still like the pics of the paradox spot though. :)


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

There is certainly no reason to mistrust Michael Jolliff though as he has a fairly good name as far as I have heard.

I'd still like the pics of the paradox spot though. :)


dr del

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Yea, He was pretty nice and didn't want to seem to give it up at a reduced price, I had a 220$ limit, and said 2 other people wanted to trade it for it... but i guess real $$$ always trumps over a trade (?) =)

Can you give me an example of what Im looking for in this "Paradox" spot? I've only ever had Spider morphs so this is a totally new one for me.

What caught my eye at the show was that it silver all over and black markings more drabby grey and dark black with a metallic blue sheen on light.

So yea and I got her home to charleston and opened it up... looks like a totally different snake.

Joliff has his own line of Axanthics, and I doubt he'd call one axanthic if it wasn't. I can see the axanthic traits in the picture provided. I don't see the "paradox" part, but it may be just a small spot.

I don't have very many different examples yet, but you can check out this thread:
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...145719-Paradox
for an explanation of what "paradox" means and see some examples.

One thing to realize, is that lighting can make a HUGE difference in how your snake looks. Especially with a subtle morph like the axanthic. The blue sheen you see is simple iridescence and all ball pythons (at least all those with dark pigment) have it to some degree or another. It's more prominent in some than others....but regardless, it only shows up under the right lighting condition. Stress and temperature changes and phases of the shed cycle can also affect how a ball python appears at any given moment. Not dramatically so, but colors can appear less vibrant or more vibrant depending on circumstances.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

Joliff has his own line of Axanthics, and I doubt he'd call one axanthic if it wasn't. I can see the axanthic traits in the picture provided. I don't see the "paradox" part, but it may be just a small spot.

I don't have very many different examples yet, but you can check out this thread:
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...145719-Paradox
for an explanation of what "paradox" means and see some examples.

One thing to realize, is that lighting can make a HUGE difference in how your snake looks. Especially with a subtle morph like the axanthic. The blue sheen you see is simple iridescence and all ball pythons (at least all those with dark pigment) have it to some degree or another. It's more prominent in some than others....but regardless, it only shows up under the right lighting condition. Stress and temperature changes and phases of the shed cycle can also affect how a ball python appears at any given moment. Not dramatically so, but colors can appear less vibrant or more vibrant depending on circumstances.

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Thanks for the info it was also listed as "Tiger" along with paradox

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freya Crescent

Thanks for the info it was also listed as "Tiger" along with paradox

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Yeah...I would have commented on that part as well, but would have just repeated what Derek (dr del) already said. There is a genetic reduced pattern line called "Tiger" and it may be that. The pattern seems a bit busy, but it could be a less-than-stellar example of one. I don't know that much about them. If you bought the animal directly from Jolliff, then I would be comfortable taking him at his word on it. :)

Are you sure it's not a het Axanthic?

That would be the cheapest axanthic I've ever heard. I'm with Stephanie, possibly a het axanthic instead?

Regards,

B

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SlitherinSisters

Are you sure it's not a het Axanthic?

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What would be the difference if he was "HET"

The Tag in the box of 2 Males stated "Tiger Axanthic Paradox"

One was silver, black and dab grey ( the one i took ) and the other one was dark brown with spider morph looking pattern on his back.

If it is het axanthic that would mean that the snake carries one of the two genes necessary to get a visual morph. So it means if you would bread that one to another het axanthic or an axanthic you could get axanthic babies

I see an Axanthic.

Maybe it's the light but I see either a very browned out axanthic or a normal.

Older axanthics are browning out
and most of all the The snake keeper line

Yea the camera makes the grey and black look brown... I dunno. I emailed him for some more info.

He is a pretty snake and hope his colors come out more as he gets bigger.

I guess if he is HET I could always look forward for some babies :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freya Crescent

Yea the camera makes the grey and black look brown... I dunno. I emailed him for some more info.

He is a pretty snake and hope his colors come out more as he gets bigger.

I guess if he is HET I could always look forward for some babies :D

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Ok here is how you can determine if its a het for axanthic.Did you get any papers saying this snake was het for axanthic? If he is het for axanthic the ONLY way you will produce ANY axanthic babies from him is to buy either a female het axanthic from Mike Jollif (since its his line) or a visual axanthic(once again from Mike).When looking at snakes at a show you need to look at the words on the lid of the container and make sure you ask questions.Since the sellar knows which snake is which it makes life easier for you knowing what you really have.

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Ok here is how you can determine if its a het for axanthic.Did you get any papers saying this snake was het for axanthic? If he is het for axanthic the ONLY way you will produce ANY axanthic babies from him is to buy either a female het axanthic from Mike Jollif (since its his line) or a visual axanthic(once again from Mike).When looking at snakes at a show you need to look at the words on the lid of the container and make sure you ask questions.Since the sellar knows which snake is which it makes life easier for you knowing what you really have.

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Pretty sure it said HET Male Tiger Axanthic Paradox, He sold it to me himself, but no paperwork for it. There was another in the container with him that was almost totally dark brown. He didn't wanna give it up for anything less then the $250, but offered no paperwork with it. He was in a pretty rush to get it done and get back to where ever he was.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freya Crescent

Pretty sure it said HET Male Tiger Axanthic Paradox, He sold it to me himself, but no paperwork for it. There was another in the container with him that was almost totally dark brown. He didn't wanna give it up for anything less then the $250, but offered no paperwork with it. He was in a pretty rush to get it done and get back to where ever he was.

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Are you sure it didnt say Male Tiger Het Axanthic maybe ? When people have several snakes in one container at a show they right several things on the lid(descriptions of each snake in it) and if you dont know which snake your looking at it can get confusing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Are you sure it didnt say Male Tiger Het Axanthic maybe ? When people have several snakes in one container at a show they right several things on the lid(descriptions of each snake in it) and if you dont know which snake your looking at it can get confusing.

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Nah.. the containers were big enough that they didn't run into each other. He tried to point out the paradox spot to me but had trouble finding it :3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joepythons

Are you sure it didnt say Male Tiger Het Axanthic maybe ? When people have several snakes in one container at a show they right several things on the lid(descriptions of each snake in it) and if you dont know which snake your looking at it can get confusing.

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Here us what I received back from him, I wish I spoke snake talk :p

The Tiger is a dominant or co-dominant genetic banded form. Supers seem to have a very clean pattern &/or pattern reduction as well. The paradox is barely visibly now but randomly occurs in various mutations. It just means there are parts that are mutated & parts that are "normal" in color. The normal spot on that guy has kinda blended out but it was just one saddle of brown up against the silver/black/white snake. All animals change in age & multiple things factor into how brown the animal may get. The animal you purchased is a Tiger meaning approx half the offspring will have genetic banded pattern. It is also PH VPI Ax. & Ghost

Hi,

Then, if he has the morph info right, in regards to what you stated in your first post you didn't get what you thought you were getting. You did get a morph which might or might not also carry the traits needed to make axanthics or ghosts.

But there is also some odd things in his email that I would ask to be clarified.

If the snake was only a possible het axanthic how did it come to be silver/ black/ white? Those are the colours of a visual axanthic not a het.

It's possible he means the snake was a genetic banded ( the european tiger morph ) axanthic that has browned out - which might explain the paradox spot being masked.

But I would ask him about it - he may be confusing you with the person who bought the normal looking snake you mentioned was in the same tank or something.


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freya Crescent

Nah.. the containers were big enough that they didn't run into each other. He tried to point out the paradox spot to me but had trouble finding it :3

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freya Crescent

Here us what I received back from him, I wish I spoke snake talk :p

The Tiger is a dominant or co-dominant genetic banded form. Supers seem to have a very clean pattern &/or pattern reduction as well. The paradox is barely visibly now but randomly occurs in various mutations. It just means there are parts that are mutated & parts that are "normal" in color. The normal spot on that guy has kinda blended out but it was just one saddle of brown up against the silver/black/white snake. All animals change in age & multiple things factor into how brown the animal may get. The animal you purchased is a Tiger meaning approx half the offspring will have genetic banded pattern. It is also PH VPI Ax. & Ghost

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See now you know what i meant when i said make sure you read the description of the snake and ask question.So thats why you did not get paperwork because its only a possible het.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Then, if he has the morph info right, in regards to what you stated in your first post you didn't get what you thought you were getting. You did get a morph which might or might not also carry the traits needed to make axanthics or ghosts.

But there is also some odd things in his email that I would ask to be clarified.

If the snake was only a possible het axanthic how did it come to be silver/ black/ white? Those are the colours of a visual axanthic not a het.

It's possible he means the snake was a genetic banded ( the european tiger morph ) axanthic that has browned out - which might explain the paradox spot being masked.

But I would ask him about it - he may be confusing you with the person who bought the normal looking snake you mentioned was in the same tank or something.


dr del

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It's possible het VPI axanthic, key word being VPI, not Joliff. Still a visual homozygous jollif axanthic. The paradox blending in probably happened when the grey faded to brown so to speak, so it's hard to see now, as it probably changed in colour in the same way. The email all makes sense to me, I think you may have just gotten mixed up on the possible het VPI thing. Nice axanthic by the way OP! I'd breed to a hypo if I were you, just saying. Good luck! ~Caylan.s.~

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Originally Posted by Inugohan

It's possible het VPI axanthic, key word being VPI, not Joliff. Still a visual homozygous jollif axanthic. The paradox blending in probably happened when the grey faded to brown so to speak, so it's hard to see now, as it probably changed in colour in the same way. The email all makes sense to me, I think you may have just gotten mixed up on the possible het VPI thing. Nice axanthic by the way OP! I'd breed to a hypo if I were you, just saying. Good luck! ~Caylan.s.~

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Thanks for the optimism! It doesn't look like many others share your outlook on my baby. Do you think the price was right for something like this?