Snake Vomit?

So I fed my snake on Sunday morning as usual and all seemed well, and today when I got home today I noticed something white in her tank that looked almost identical to what I asked about in my last thread. Being days after her meal I'm sure its not regurge and I'm skeptical of it being poop as well. This time I noticed a slimy substance coating it, again not much smell to it and this now has me worried again. She has an appointment with the vet tomorrow at 2:30 and I bagged the sample to bring with me to find out for sure what it is. I just read something about vomiting as apposed to regurge and now think that's whats going on since it happened so soon after a meal and still long enough after to not be regurge. Has anyone else had one of their snakes vomit a few days after a meal? She is still acting normal from what I can tell, and her temps and humidity haven't changed. Any suggestions for what to do in the mean time?

Here's a link to the bit I read
http://www.herpcenter.com/herp-aware...on-snakes.html

I'll try and get a picture of the object in question posted.

Is it urates? If it's not regurge then it's urates. It's a white chalky substance they pass with urine...like a solid urine.

Ya dude that is totally snake urine, it is white and chunky, and if it is fresh it can be slimy as well..

Sounds like urates to me, too. They can be dry or slimy, and they may or may not have some amount of liquid waste alongside. And they can range in colors...mostly white to yellow...sometimes greenish or grey.

I'm pretty sure its not urates its not chalky at all and it definitely looks like a mostly digested mouse, covered in fur and in the same general shape as her normal poop, just not quite poop yet. Her urates usually form in more of a ball shape as well. I wish I caught the action of her expelling it from her body so I knew for sure which end it came out. Last week when it happened there was a normal poop with urates attached to it then there was also something similar to what I found today.

One more thing, regurgitation freaking reeks! It will smell like barf but orders of magnitude worse than any barf you have ever smelled...

Not only that, a regurgitated rodent will almost always look alot like a puked up rodent... In other words a partially digested sloppy mess with its skin full of putrescent holes and its innards hanging out all over the place... Plus a crapload of snake digestive fluids...

If it has fur and looks like the mouse she ate, and this is the second time she's regurged, I'd bring a stool sample to the vet asap to check for parasites, and/or double and triple check your husbandry.

In that case, you're doing the right thing with the vet appt and keeping the sample. Even if it is just a weird urates, it'll be good to get such confirmation from a vet who has seen and handled it personally. All we can do here is guess based on vague descriptions. :P

In the meantime...I don't think there is anything special you need to do for the snake. Just leave her be and don't do anything to add to her stress. The less handling, the better, until you're certain she's healthy.

Good luck. Let us know what the vet says.

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Originally Posted by Ham

One more thing, regurgitation freaking reeks! It will smell like barf but orders of magnitude worse than any barf you have ever smelled...

Not only that, a regurgitated rodent will almost always look alot like a puked up rodent... In other words a partially digested sloppy mess with its skin full of putrescent holes and its innards hanging out all over the place... Plus a crapload of snake digestive fluids...

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If it looks like a mouse than it might be a mouse, but they will never crap out anything that looks like a rodent, if it resembles what went into the snake than it must of come out the wrong end... Make sure not to feed anything bigger around than the widest part of your snake, and make sure your temps are correct, too much or too little heat can make em puke, and do not handle for 48 hours after feeding the snake, that can make em puke too, also you should not worry too awful much, just wait 5 days and feed the snake again, maybe a smaller prey item...

http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/a...Z/IMG00718.jpg

Sorry about the quality but that's it, the brown stuff is just coco fiber stuck to it. It's much smaller than the mouse was to begin with and seams to be mostly digested. My dad is going to sterilize the tank while she is at the vet and I'm going to set it back up the way it was for QT with paper towels and plastic hides before she goes back in. I just put up a piece of cardboard on the front so she has black out on all 4 sides now. All her temps and humidity are still stable and she has fresh water from this morning. Thanks for the help everyone and I will let you know what it is and what the vet says as soon as I can.

That there is a mouse...regurgitated. Good luck at the vet :(

http://i945.photobucket.com/albums/a...Z/PICT0574.jpg

here's a better pic

Yep mouse, maybe the snake accidentally swallowed some cocofiber and that irritated her? I have never used that stuff for snakes, I use the Cypress mulch. I would think the cocofiber would pose a risk for accindental ingestion.

I don't think she swallowed any coco fiber I feed her in a plastic tub. Though she may have while drinking if she knocked some into her water bowl. I've always used coco fiber for snakes and haven't had an issue anything like this so far. My guess is that the humidity rise during her last shed may have helped incubate a bacteria of sorts since this first happened after her post shed feeding, and in the article I read 'Vomiting vs. Regurgitation in Snakes' says vomiting that happens days after a feeding could be bacterial and is usually an internal problem. I also noticed some sort of fly in her tank a couple weeks ago but I just killed it and passed it of as one of the many random bugs I find in my house this time of year. I'm not sure if that could have anything to do with it like introducing a parasite or something. Ahh I'm thinking too much into it right now though. Time for some guitar therapy to get my mind off it for a while. Thanks again everyone.

Handling her from putting her from her separate tub to her enclosure could be an issue, especially if she's just a small thing. There is really no need to feed in a separate container...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ham

One more thing, regurgitation freaking reeks! It will smell like barf but orders of magnitude worse than any barf you have ever smelled...

Not only that, a regurgitated rodent will almost always look alot like a puked up rodent... In other words a partially digested sloppy mess with its skin full of putrescent holes and its innards hanging out all over the place... Plus a crapload of snake digestive fluids...

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I really did NOT need that visual! :puke2:

Gale

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Originally Posted by LGray23

Handling her from putting her from her separate tub to her enclosure could be an issue, especially if she's just a small thing. There is really no need to feed in a separate container...

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That's a possibility I guess, but wouldn't she regurge a few hours after the handling or no later than the next day from being handled just that once instead of 3 days later?

I only feed her in a separate container because the bedding gets stuck all over the F/T mice and I don't want her eating the bedding as well. I guess I can just put a layer of paper towels or something down over the bedding and feed her on top of those then just pull them out when she retreats to one of her hides. She will be on just a few layers of paper towels when she gets back from the vet so I won't need to put her in a separate container for feeding. So I'll see how those feedings go.

When you take her to the vet, be sure to get some flagyl. This helps kill parasites and also helps recoup from regurges.

Next meal needs to be 2-3 weeks from the day you found the regurge. Offer a smaller mouse than usual. Once she eats and it stays down, offer same size again in 1.5-2weeks. As she keep them down slowly move up in size and frequency. Go to fast you will cause her to be a constant regurger. Slow and steady will get her back on track.

I just got back from the vet and so far she sees no problems with Toki. She said that Toki seems to be in excellent health, much better than the average BP that she sees. I had her look at the sample and she could not be 100% that it was regurge due to the consistency of it and how well digested it was. She thinks it was a bowl movement made a little early, no bones or anything just a well furry mostly digested mouse. I'm going to get a scale so I can monitor her weight I believe she weighed in at 215 grams. She did not want to start any treatment at this point, just wants me to monitor her weight and activity and to give her a call if I notice a decline in her weight or overall health. Thanks again everybody, I'll keep you updated on how Toki is doing.

I'd get a new vet....

That is almost certainly a regurge. I have never heard of a snake bm that was animal like. I'd also suggest another vet. Two regurges would almost certainly be a serious issue.

This was my first time going to this vet, but good news, I think.... I just caught her in action like just 5 mins ago and those things are definitely coming out of her vent I just saw her pass one and it looks exactly like the other 2. There were never any bones in the first 2 and both seemed pretty digested and not at all close to the size of the mice she ate. I guess shes just not digesting hair or something which is the conclusion we came to in the first thread. With that amount of hair still there it kinda still looks like a mouse. I'm still keeping a close eye out for anything weird. Should I still skip her next feeding and downsize when she continues just to be safe for now?

You actually witnessed this happening again and are sure it was out of her vent? I'd be worried about that too! Why wouldnt the snake be digesting completely? Ive never seen poop that didn't look like poop.

sent from my EVO

If she is pooping these out as bowel movements, this seems really frequent for the snake to be digesting all of the nutrients which is maybe why they are coming out really quickly.

I would think keeping regular weight checks would see if your snake is digesting any of the rodent, or just passing it through undigested..

Hi,

Those aren't normal bowel movements.

Have we asked how you are heating and how and where you measure in the temps?


dr del

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,

Those aren't normal bowel movements.

Have we asked how you are heating and how and where you measure in the temps?


dr del

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I know they aren't normal this is why I got worried in the first place, I am just glad to see that she isn't regurging. I haven't lowered my guard with the situation yet just a bit relieved to see it was a BM instead of regurge. I did pick up a nice digital scale to keep track of her weight. How often should I weigh her? Is once a week good?

I use a UTH on the warm side and a red light to bring up ambient air temp, both of these are on the plug in style dimmer switches. The temp in her warm hide is currently 92.7 and ambient temp in middle of the tank is currently 84.5. I use an Acu-rite indoor outdoor thermometer with the probe buried right over the UTH, and I mounted the unit on the back wall of the tank in the middle approx 1/2" above substrate using a few dabs of silicone on the back around the edges so I can cut it out for cleaning. The wire is buried under multiple inches of coco fiber so there is no chance of her 'digging' it up and the probe is secured with a built up dab of silicone as well with about 1"-1 1/2" packed coco fiber under that hide. The unit also has a hygrometer which is currently reading 58%

Having bowel movements like that with half digested rodents is just as bad as a regurge.

Which is why you need a new vet. Any good vet would of given flagyl as its cheap and does wonders for snakes.

I'm not comfortable giving my snake any meds without knowing 100% what the cause is, especially meds that she can build up resistance to. From my understanding of the last thread it is not uncommon for snakes to have undigested hair in their BM and that is still a possibility of what is going on here. I examined the first one myself when I found it and it was well digested as in I didn't find bones, organs, flesh or anything that resembled a mouse other than the thick coating of hair.

I'm looking around for a different vet at this point but wont be able to afford another visit this week unless its absolutely necessary i.e. decline in weight, activity, appearance of health. She is still quite active in the evening hours before I go to bed and she is still thermoregulating, so far the only thing out of the norm is extremely furry poop.

Again, I'm still keeping a close eye on everything and haven't let my guard down. I will weigh her every few days and try to monitor her activity each night and if anything else raises a flag it's off to a new vet.

Snakes CANT digest fur period. But those pictures is not a bowel movement of just fur.

Flagyl is not a med that they build resistance to. Its a med used to kill internal parasites and helps snakes digest food better with the added bonus of better feeding response. Few dosings will help this snake over time.

Like i said get a better vet

Hi,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Twiz

I know they aren't normal this is why I got worried in the first place, I am just glad to see that she isn't regurging. I haven't lowered my guard with the situation yet just a bit relieved to see it was a BM instead of regurge. I did pick up a nice digital scale to keep track of her weight. How often should I weigh her? Is once a week good?

I use a UTH on the warm side and a red light to bring up ambient air temp, both of these are on the plug in style dimmer switches. The temp in her warm hide is currently 92.7 and ambient temp in middle of the tank is currently 84.5. I use an Acu-rite indoor outdoor thermometer with the probe buried right over the UTH, and I mounted the unit on the back wall of the tank in the middle approx 1/2" above substrate using a few dabs of silicone on the back around the edges so I can cut it out for cleaning. The wire is buried under multiple inches of coco fiber so there is no chance of her 'digging' it up and the probe is secured with a built up dab of silicone as well with about 1"-1 1/2" packed coco fiber under that hide. The unit also has a hygrometer which is currently reading 58%

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We might be getting somewhere ( or not :cool: ) but can you take a temp reading on top of that packed down substrate inside the warm end hide?

Low temps would cause the snake to have problems digesting and that is a lot of substrate between the heater and the snake.

I know they can burrow down but packed down coco-fibre might be a little trickier.


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

Hi,



We might be getting somewhere ( or not :cool: ) but can you take a temp reading on top of that packed down substrate inside the warm end hide?

Low temps would cause the snake to have problems digesting and that is a lot of substrate between the heater and the snake.

I know they can burrow down but packed down coco-fibre might be a little trickier.


dr del

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I'd need to borrow my brothers temp gun for surface temp in the hide. The probe isn't directly on the tank bottom I 'stacked' silicone there it sits about 1/2" above the glass and is about half an inch below the substrate surface. So my guess would be that the temp in the burrow is gonna be a pretty close but not exact. In the mean time I think I have a digital medical thermometer I can probe it just below the surface to get a better idea of the temp loss through the substrate. Shes currently in there right now though so I'll wait till later when she comes out to explore or switch hides. She does seem to prefer her cool hide directly after her feeding but I haven't kept track of time spent in each one when she switches. When she feeds again I will try to clock time spent in each hide and see if maybe shes spending too much time on the cooler side

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Snakes CANT digest fur period. But those pictures is not a bowel movement of just fur.

Flagyl is not a med that they build resistance to. Its a med used to kill internal parasites and helps snakes digest food better with the added bonus of better feeding response. Few dosings will help this snake over time.

Like i said get a better vet

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I found 2 other 'exotic' vets in my area but found no one who deals exclusively with reptiles. I called both of the others and explained whats going on and neither of them where of much help either, I was told to "soak her and monitor her weight". So I called back the vet she saw and we had a little conversation about Flagyl and what I witnessed last night. She agrees that this isn't normal and that since it's persisting she will give me a prescription for the Flagyl. I am unable to go back there until Monday as I will be out of state tomorrow and they are closed on Sunday.

So before I just go and get these meds or have her give my snake meds I would like to know your experiences with this particular drug so I know that she is getting it right. Like what dosage would you expect to be given to a 210g BP? How often is the medication given? How many doses are usually required? Are there possible generics I may be given instead? Is it possible to to give the medication through a regular feeding by putting it in a mouse? What is the least stressful way to give this stuff to her? Are there possible side effects or reactions I should be aware of? How much should this cost? Sorry about all these questions but I have no experience with this drug and I'm not even big on medicating myself unless I'm in a hospital.

I will skip her feeding this Sunday as to not cause a possible regurge when medication is given. I will be asking these questions to the vet too and discuss what I hope to learn from your experiences with her as well if I feel something isn't right. My search continues for a reptile specific vet that is close enough within reason. If anyone knows a trusted vet north of Atlanta GA (Cumming, Buford, Gainesville, Lawrenceville areas preferred) referrals are welcome. I am willing to travel to Atlanta if the vet is highly recommended.

Thanks again

Quote:

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I found 2 other 'exotic' vets in my area but found no one who deals exclusively with reptiles. I called both of the others and explained whats going on and neither of them where of much help either, I was told to "soak her and monitor her weight". So I called back the vet she saw and we had a little conversation about Flagyl and what I witnessed last night. She agrees that this isn't normal and that since it's persisting she will give me a prescription for the Flagyl. I am unable to go back there until Monday as I will be out of state tomorrow and they are closed on Sunday.

So before I just go and get these meds or have her give my snake meds I would like to know your experiences with this particular drug so I know that she is getting it right. Like what dosage would you expect to be given to a 210g BP? How often is the medication given? How many doses are usually required? Are there possible generics I may be given instead? Is it possible to to give the medication through a regular feeding by putting it in a mouse? What is the least stressful way to give this stuff to her? Are there possible side effects or reactions I should be aware of? How much should this cost? Sorry about all these questions but I have no experience with this drug and I'm not even big on medicating myself unless I'm in a hospital.

I will skip her feeding this Sunday as to not cause a possible regurge when medication is given. I will be asking these questions to the vet too and discuss what I hope to learn from your experiences with her as well if I feel something isn't right. My search continues for a reptile specific vet that is close enough within reason. If anyone knows a trusted vet north of Atlanta GA (Cumming, Buford, Gainesville, Lawrenceville areas preferred) referrals are welcome. I am willing to travel to Atlanta if the vet is highly recommended.

Thanks again

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A good herp vet will answer ALL those questions for you while there. Ive used it many times when I worked fro BHB. When there the Flagyl was administered with each feeding for 3 feedings. Dosing it on the rodent enough to cover the rodents head and offer it. Of course if using frozen rodents. By doing just the head of the rodent, it gave the snake just enough to settle the digestion system down.

Other wise its given orally and dosages depend on the mixture the vet has on hand.

Thanks I guess some of those questions where vet specific. This vet seems to be better qualified than others I spoke with, shes just not as experienced with reptiles as a reptile specific vet would be. For now its all I got and I will go through with the Flagyl treatment so long as shes able to answer all my questions and nothing seems fishy. Otherwise I will have to find a reptile specific vet that hopefully wont empty my gas tank just getting there.