Ball Python resting beneath substrate. Is this typical?

Hello,

For a week, my BP has chosen to remain contently burrowed under the substrate unless I dig her out.

Is this cause for concern?

Thanks,

Pyth

What kind of substrate are you using? What are your temps and how are you measuring them? Above or below the substrate? It could be that he/she just feels more secure when burrowed and is using the substrate as a make-shift hide, or maybe the temps on top of the substrate aren't warm enough so he/she is burrowing toward the heat...

Good info above. What are you using for hides? Is the enclosure a glass tank? How big are the enclosure and snake?

Regards,

B

Its hard to offer suggestions without a better feel for the situation. When you answer Inknsteel and Simple Man's questions then you'll have better response. My BP use to hang out under the aspen bedding when I got him bigger hides. He wouldn't go in them for about a month. Luck to you:)

In addition to the other questions, what is your humidity level? Its not uncommon for snakes to borrow in the substrate if the humidity is too low.

Yes, here's the information as of now.


Simple Man

Good info above. What are you using for hides? Is the enclosure a glass tank? How big are the enclosure and snake?

Regards,

B.


1 large wood-looking hide (Just got this for her; she preferred the smaller one without a doubt). Enclosure is glass tank. Snake is about 32" (she's hard to measure precisely) enclosure is 12x12x28 inches.



Today 12:44 PM
Inknsteel


Re: Ball Python resting beneath substrate. Is this typical?
What kind of substrate are you using? What are your temps and how are you measuring them? Above or below the substrate? It could be that he/she just feels more secure when burrowed and is using the substrate as a make-shift hide, or maybe the temps on top of the substrate aren't warm enough so he/she is burrowing toward the heat...

Reptile substrate from the pet store. Very soft bedding, resembles moss. Warm end temperature is 90 degrees. Cool end is between 78-82 deg.


Cendalla


Its hard to offer suggestions without a better feel for the situation. When you answer Inknsteel and Simple Man's questions then you'll have better response. My BP use to hang out under the aspen bedding when I got him bigger hides. He wouldn't go in them for about a month. Luck to you

Sounds like you and I have similar Ball Pythons, Cend. :-)


Thanks,

Pyth

It sounds like the new hide might be throwing your BP off. Mine like their hides far longer than they should. They will wear them like hats. Everything else sounds good, what's your humidity though?

Regards,

B

Is it a half log hide? They are no good as they have two large openings so the BP doesn't feel safe. These are great hides: http://www.exo-terra.com/en/products/reptile_cave.php. You need a hide that the snake can barely fit into and it has one small opening! You can make your own too! A plastic dog bowl upside down with a hole in the side would do it and you can get those at the dollar store! Make sure you melt the edges of the hole with a lighter to smooth it out. There are several other ideas out there as well for a cheap hide. Just search it on here!

Yes, it's a half-log den.

Humidity is at 55%.

I measure temperature using strip thermometers, one on each side of the tank, beneath the bulb of the light.

Do you have belly heat also or just lights? The lights might be stressing the snake out. They are nocturnal and don't require uv light. Do you spray to keep humidity up? Screen top tank?

Regards,

B

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pyth

Yes, it's a half-log den.

Humidity is at 55%.

I measure temperature using strip thermometers, one on each side of the tank, beneath the bulb of the light.

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Strip thermometers that stick to the side of the tank do not work at all. :oops: Trash those and get yourself an Accurite thermometer/hygrometer from WalMart.

My corn used to do that very frequently, but yet again they are much more fond of burrowing than BP's. I currently have a half log for the cool end of my tank, but i have foliage behind it to sort of close off one end of it. It's actually my BP's favorite spot to hang out. I can find him there about 75% of the time.

He is probably hiding from the light! You need a under tank heater with a dimmer or thermostat! You need a digital thermostat with a probe so you can accurately measure the temps! Get one that will measure the humidity too! Those stick on ones are not good at all! Follow this care sheet and you will have a happy ball! http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...ius)-Caresheet

Is your 90degrees at the surface of the substrate or the glass below it? If its of the glass below it maybe you might want to consider that your substrate layer is pretty thick (since it is, after all, thick enough for it to hide in). If this is the case, what is the substrate surface temp as well? I only use half inch of substrate at most. They push it aside yes, but its never enough to hide under. If the 90F is the substrate surface, start measuring the glass surface that he's sitting on when he gets under the substrate. It might be hot.

I'm trying to wade through what people think you have and what you have stated that you have.

1. The heat source is an overhead light. Correct?

2. There is no under tank heater - Correct?

3. You mentioned that this behavior has been going on for a week. Have you had the snake longer than a week, or did you get the snake a week ago?

4. For your heating set up, if you are using an overhead head lamp/light, what type are you using and where is the light in relationship to the hide?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I'm trying to wade through what people think you have and what you have stated that you have.

1. The heat source is an overhead light. Correct? Correct.

2. There is no under tank heater - Correct? Correct.

3. You mentioned that this behavior has been going on for a week. Have you had the snake longer than a week, or did you get the snake a week ago? Had her for several months now.

4. For your heating set up, if you are using an overhead head lamp/light, what type are you using and where is the light in relationship to the hide?

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Usually her hide is beneath the lamp on the warm end of the temp gradient and she is happy.

Additional answers,

1. No belly lamps or heat pads.
2. Screen-top cage.
3. Yes, I spray to keep humidity levels up. Humidity is 68% now.

She is in her hide now that I've put her up to going into it, however I found her buried under her water bowl last night. I guess I am still learning my snake's personality - her likes and dislikes.

Ok it is possible that nothing is wrong that she has taken to digging. Or something could be wrong. Nice and wishy washey there.

Someone posted about the liquid crystal thermometers you have. First thing is they are more accurate then most digital ones on the market (0.5ºF error). The second thing is the placement is poor.

If you are getting 90º on the glass it is likely that the interior temps are quite high. Do you have a probed digital thermometer? If not one would be very useful. The stick on glass ones are very accurate but they measure the temp of what they are on, I'd not stick one inside as there is a chance of the snake managing to get it off and stuck on them selves. However if you do not have a probed digital one you could buy a new LC stick on one and use it not stuck on anything just placed in the hot hide and one the substrate on the cool side. Or pick up any digital probed one they all have the same specs and the chance of getting a good one is about the same.

What we are looking for are three temps.

The hot side on the substrate in or beside the hide.

The cool side on the substrate in or beside the hide.

(Did you say you had two hides or just one?)

The mid point between the hot and cool end about 3 inches off the substrate. Not touching the sides.

My guess and it is simply a guess they way you are measuring the temps is not very accurate basically you are checking the glass temp. I am guessing *GUESSING* that the temps inside are higher than you are expecting and that the snake is burrowing away from the heat to get to cool temps from the bottom of the enclosure. This is a guess but unless you are not in the norther hemisphere it is getting warmer outside and the ambient temps are getting warmer. That added to the lamp heat system may have pushed the temps from good to too hot.

Double check your temps using the method I described and lets see where we are.

Hello and thanks for the feedback, everyone.

I have a digital thermometer with a probe now measuring the temperature at the level of the substrate as 87.2 degrees farenheit where she is resting in her half log hide without any signs for concern. Additionally, I have added a UTH in the section of the tank her hide is on.

Sounds good PYth! You probably need to double check the temp of the UTH. They sell lamp dimmers pre built at Lowes or Home Depot for $10. That will help you set a safe temperature. It sounds like you're on the right path though!

Regards,

B

Thank you very much. :-)

Update


Temp gradient (F)

I installed a second probe thermometer to measure the temperature gradient accurately, meaning there is now 1 DT on her basking end, mid-way up the side of the terrarium, and one on the opposite end in the same position on the other side of the enclosure.

At the moment, the gradient is 74F to 85F. The care sheet linked above which I've been following diligently says the gradient should be "TEMPS: 80-84 F w/ basking 88-94 F."



UTHS - Under Tank Heat Source

I put 1 single UTH pad designed for a 30g tank beneath her basking end. Is it true that an UTH can suffice as a heat source without overhead bulbs? Because at the moment the UTH + Bulb are running the temperature gradient slightly low according to the care sheet recommends to have them. Is this temperature gradient unhealthy? Is it critically unhealthy? Like- a risk to her?


Humidity level in non-shed stage, stuck with analog hygrometer

I was advised to get a digital hygrometer thermometer combination, however in 2 pet stores I checked, they only carried the standard analog one I use now. Is this a major concern? The reading on the analog is at 55% and responds within 15 minutes or so if I spray the cage with reptile moisturizer/humidifying spray.


Hides

I set the cage up with one hide on each end, one on the basking end, one on the cool end, so she has options to help if the temperature is bothering her on one end or the other she can just use the hide on the other side of the terrarium.

*** She has already begun switching sides.

Substrate

The substrate in her glass tank is a standard green carpet for reptiles, which she does not seem to have a problem with, and I got rid of the odorous mushy substrate smell in the process of exchanging the two.


Eating

After rearranging the glass tank, changing the ground to a reptile carpet, she ate with no problem today, so this week's feeding went off without a hitch. Thanks, all!


Pyth

Great news! Sounds like you've made some big improvements.

Regards,

B

The feeding is the best tell for husbandry if it is way off the animal will not feed or will regurgitate what it did. Your temps look fine although you didn't let us know the ambient air temps just surface temps. Air temps are often ignored but are just as important. Ideally it should be 80-85 or so.

It sounds like you have a digger there. I have one who is too she likes under her paper in the rack.

The analogue humidity instrument is fine as long as it is accurate. They are dead easy to test, there is a quick 'are you working' one and a more accurate one.

The quick test is place a wet paper towel over the instrument wait 30 min and check it should read at or very near 100%.

The other is a salt test. Ideally done at 30ºC but practically it makes so little difference (less than 0.5%) it does not matter. This test can be used on any hygrometer. I actually like the analogue hygrometers that can be tested and altered to be correct again when and if they wander. The cheap cigar humidor ones have in my testing proven to be the most reliable and accurate in the cheaper price range (under 100$) There are good digital ones (wet bulb) out there but they are really sensitive to dirt and junk and need very careful perpetuation before use and are simply too fussy to use with snakes.

http://cigars.about.com/od/humidors/qt/hygrometers.htm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

The feeding is the best tell for husbandry if it is way off the animal will not feed or will regurgitate what it did. Your temps look fine although you didn't let us know the ambient air temps just surface temps. Air temps are often ignored but are just as important. Ideally it should be 80-85 or so.

It sounds like you have a digger there. I have one who is too she likes under her paper in the rack.

The analogue humidity instrument is fine as long as it is accurate. They are dead easy to test, there is a quick 'are you working' one and a more accurate one.

The quick test is place a wet paper towel over the instrument wait 30 min and check it should read at or very near 100%.

The other is a salt test. Ideally done at 30ºC but practically it makes so little difference (less than 0.5%) it does not matter. This test can be used on any hygrometer. I actually like the analogue hygrometers that can be tested and altered to be correct again when and if they wander. The cheap cigar humidor ones have in my testing proven to be the most reliable and accurate in the cheaper price range (under 100$) There are good digital ones (wet bulb) out there but they are really sensitive to dirt and junk and need very careful perpetuation before use and are simply too fussy to use with snakes.

http://cigars.about.com/od/humidors/qt/hygrometers.htm

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Hello KD,

The ambient temperature is 74 degrees F.

The temperature gradient in her terrarium is now: 84.4F / 92.7F.

Right on target!

Pyth

Is she eating ok? The ambient temp is low. The cool end is a touch high. She might be in the substrate trying to get warm. counter logical but..

The biology. Ball Pythons have two lungs one is small and really does next to nothing. The other is long, very long, 2/3 of the body. The heart and liver are against the lung, all the large arteries run past the lung, if the air in the lung is cool that will cause the blood to cool and drop the skin temps. If you are hypothermic they do tell people to sit on a radiator but to drink arm liquids and wrap up the core. Same idea here. The core temp is regulated largely by the lungs air temp and secondary by surface temps.

drop your cool end temps some, but try to stop all that heat loss. You are producing lots of surface heat but losing it as fast as you make it. You might try to insulate the top some of now a blanket might work, just drape it over the top and sides as well as the back and see if there is a change. (don't get it too hot like on a lamp or something!!!) Give it a day or two and see what the snake does hopefully she will stop hugging the heat and start thermoregulating normally again.

Not sure if anyone mentioned so, but that green reptile "carpet" is not the greatest. It's difficult to keep sanitary and would be much more costly to continuously replace than some other substrates. I've never personally used it but others have said that after a month or so of use, even if you clean it as best you can, it tends to smell a bit. I'd imagine it harbors bacteria much more than other substrates would.

As for not being able to find the thermometer/hygrometer combos in pet stores, you won't. Accurite is the most commonly used and can typically be found in WalMart or Home Depot for arround $12.

My local pet store carries combos they are a bit expensive and the same accuracy as accurites but the ones on ebay for a dollar are too. Buy what you want but the specs are the same on all of them until you spend some serious bucks or go liquid crystal. I like the humidor hygrometers that can be calibrated as they can be made accurate with the simple salt test. Digital ones are all the place but few can be calibrated.

I am biased here I dislike the accurites, it is big and bulky, and has the same specs as the rest. I have owned 3 or them 2 accurite replaced due to inaccuracy out of the box. (humidity way beyond the specs as well as temps and the other one the temps were beyond the specs) The third I checked it was just inside the specs for temp 1.8ºF high so I gave it way. My 1$ ones are all at least as accurate as it was. They are cheap and work ok and can be replaced the second they become suspect. My advise is buy 12 and get rid of the ones that are reading more than 0.5º different from the majority. I have the same advise for accurites buy a bunch (more than 3) and toss or take back the worst of the bunch. They are no better or worse than the rest of the cheap digital ones on the market.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

My local pet store carries combos they are a bit expensive and the same accuracy as accurites but the ones on ebay for a dollar are too. Buy what you want but the specs are the same on all of them until you spend some serious bucks or go liquid crystal. I like the humidor hygrometers that can be calibrated as they can be made accurate with the simple salt test. Digital ones are all the place but few can be calibrated.

I am biased here I dislike the accurites, it is big and bulky, and has the same specs as the rest. I have owned 3 or them 2 accurite replaced due to inaccuracy out of the box. (humidity way beyond the specs as well as temps and the other one the temps were beyond the specs) The third I checked it was just inside the specs for temp 1.8ºF high so I gave it way. My 1$ ones are all at least as accurate as it was. They are cheap and work ok and can be replaced the second they become suspect. My advise is buy 12 and get rid of the ones that are reading more than 0.5º different from the majority. I have the same advise for accurites buy a bunch (more than 3) and toss or take back the worst of the bunch. They are no better or worse than the rest of the cheap digital ones on the market.

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Can you direct me to the ones you purchase on e-bay? I've never seen thermo/hygrometers sold that cheap, but if they work as well as Accurites I'd love to order a handful.

Sure it isn't a combo just thermometer. Hygrometers need to be calibrated they typically are crumby out of the box. salt test is easy and simple.

ebay item number 270744134684

hygrometer
http://www.neptunecigar.com/pr/analo...RC=ShoppingCom

I actually bought my hygrometer from a local store. The price was slightly higher but about the same with shipping. I got a better price the second time I went in and bought 12 of them, they thought I was odd but hey 25% off I was happy. Two of them were more than 8% off so I adjusted them down. I check them every 8 months so far only one needed re-calibration. Most wouldn't bother to change them if they are off by less than 5% (ok I admit it I have to have them all the exact same, no not necessary but I just can't stop myself!!!)

Yes, she is eating fine.

Pyth :-)