Let's Clear Some Stuff Up About IBD

I'm starting to see the same things stated over and over again about IBD. Namely that it's universally quick and fatal in pythons and that neurological symptoms are the calling card.

While I am far from an expert on IBD, I did deal with it in my collection and I documented as much here. During that ordeal, I was able to correspond with Dr. Elliot Jacobson and talk directly to vets at UC Davis about the disease.

Without dredging up too much history and repeating what I've posted in previous threads, I had two dwarf locality boas with the disease. One presented with mild anorexia and other subclinical symptoms. The other never showed a single symptom.

After failing to be able to resolve any of the former snake's subclinical ailments, my vet took a series of live biopsies, culminating in one of the esophageal tonsils. The histology came back positive for IBD.

At the time, I was heavily into other boid species including aspidites, antaresia and I even had a couple of ball pythons. At great expense, I had tests run on the majority of my animals. The only animal that was also harboring the disease was the boa's mate.

How could that be? The common forum geniuses had assured me that IBD kills and kills quickly. The on-line know it alls had also pointed out numerous care sheets written by other forums mensas that assured me that it spreads like wildfire and that my snakes should all be corkscrewing and stargazing.

Well, when I talked to actual vets and researchers I found that IBD can be present indefinitely without showing any symptoms. I found out that more often than not, it presents itself not with a series of in your face neurological issues, but as stubborn subclinical infections such as mouth rout, RI, gastritis, etc.

I was informed in an email from Dr. J himself (which I shared with some people on this site) that due to the difficulty in screening for the disease and the length of time it can remain dormant, that you can't set a QT period. In the case of my two boas, one remained an asymptomatic carrier for over 7 years.

I was also informed that the carrier rate of asymptomatic boids could run over 30% and that healthy control animals sent to U of F from breeders tested positive for the disease.

After being excoriated by several boa big wigs, I have pretty much kept my mouth shut.

However before we frighten a whole new crop of forum newbies with the dreaded IBD boogeyman, let's make sure that we all understand a couple of things:

(1) IBD more often times than not does NOT present with neurological symptoms.

(2) Animals can carry IBD for an indefinite period of time.

(3) Animals do not always succumb quickly. The idea that a ball python collection is safe with a 90 day quarantine simply isn't true.

Now with regard to ball pythons, my son's godfather is a school teacher who has a ball python as a class room pet. That snake is probably 9 or ten years old.

Since Chris has had the snake, he has never even been kept in the same room as another reptile. The snake has been with Chris since it was a neonate.

Some time in 2009 or 2010, this ball python developed an RI. It was cultured and treated. It then was afflicted with mouth rot, another RI and then a skin infection.

While Chris does not go to our vet, he goes to another vet who may be one of the best in the country. This vet immediately performed a series of biopsies. The culprit - IBD.

Chris made the decision to not euthanize the animal. I don't know the exact time period, but the snake has been living with symptomatic IBD for over a year and was most likely asymptomatic for at least 9.

This is a ball python. Not a boa. A ball python. When Chris told me about what was going on with "Stretch", I talked to my vet. Sure enough, she has treated many pythons species who have similar back stories. Yes I know that flies in the face of what many people have read on Anapsid and other regurge sites, but if you stay current with the disease you'll find that it just isn't universally fatal in pythons.

From an article Dr. Jacobsen recently wrote:

"Snakes make up approximately 19% of all reptiles kept as pets. Of these, boa constrictors and pythons - especially ball pythons - are bred in large numbers for the pet trade. Because many IBD-infected boid snakes may not show outward signs of the disease, infected snakes considered healthy have been sold. We do not know what percentage of snakes infected with IBD will develop clinical symptoms and how many will remain clinically healthy. It is possible that latent infections can persist for long periods.


My own correspondence with Dr. J confirmed the same thing. As I stated earlier, I already shared that with people on this forum, including a mod or two.

We need to stop screaming IBD every time someone's snake does something a bit odd. We also need to stop telling people that if they've had a python more than 3 months and it's healthy that it's free of the disease.

A fine line exists between providing a clear picture of IBD and hysteria. While we should all be concerned about the disease and it's ability to remain undercover so long (and the ramifications of that ability) we also need to not freak people out about it.

As my vet told me, when a snake with neurological symptoms is presented to her, IBD is one of about a dozen things that enter her mind. The trick is that she is a vet and can attempt to diagnose and treat the other 11 things that are more common and often more probable.

None of us are vets, and while we should continue to help people who come here with problems, we need to be extra careful in the advice we dole out.

I'm glad to hear something like this, from someone with experience. IBD has become the boogeyman, like Cryptosporidium in Leos and Chytrid in frogs.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to post. :)

I remember, when the green burmese morph came about, and the "story" then was ALL green burms are doomed to die from respiratory disease. And I'm sure many did, because they were new and inexperienced keepers didn't know proper husbandry, or not going to the vet soon enough. This "fact" also was extended to some of the other morps, such as labyrinth and granite.

Skip,
That is very interesting but it contradicts what I have understood completely.

"... (IBD) is believed to be caused by a retrovirus. This disease is usually passed from snake to snake by mites, but it can be spread through contact. Inclusion Body disease can be contracted by boas and pythons. It is always fatal. In pythons IBD quickly progresses to infect the brain and typically results in death within two to four months. In boas, the disease tends to infect all the organs of the body before reaching the endgame brain infection, so infected boas may live more than two years without showing symptoms."

Barker and Barker, BALL PYTHONS: History, Natural History, Care & Breeding 2006

I have a second reference here someplace I'll post it as soon as I can locate it. I am not discounting what you say at all, but I have understood that boas and pythons respond differently to this disease. I don't believe it is common as everyone wants it to be as according to the information I had kills quickly and requires direct contact (like pet stores often have)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Skip,
That is very interesting but it contradicts what I have understood completely.

"... (IBD) is believed to be caused by a retrovirus. This disease is usually passed from snake to snake by mites, but it can be spread through contact. Inclusion Body disease can be contracted by boas and pythons. It is always fatal. In pythons IBD quickly progresses to infect the brain and typically results in death within two to four months. In boas, the disease tends to infect all the organs of the body before reaching the endgame brain infection, so infected boas may live more than two years without showing symptoms."

Barker and Barker, BALL PYTHONS: History, Natural History, Care & Breeding 2006

I have a second reference here someplace I'll post it as soon as I can locate it. I am not discounting what you say at all, but I have understood that boas and pythons respond differently to this disease. I don't believe it is common as everyone wants it to be as according to the information I had kills quickly and requires direct contact (like pet stores often have)

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As I have previously stated, Dr. Jacobson who is one of the foremost researchers on this disease has flat out stated that it lay dormant indefinitely and that it's far more common than we think.

Alex, you made reference to the Barker's. They are not vets, they are not researchers. They are snake breeders.

I can provide you a link to one of the foremost breeders of boas flat out stating in an interview that he believes IBD does not exist.

Any info coming from a breeder and not a researcher should be taken with a whole shaker of salt. Likewise any papers that are older than three or four years probably are outdated in terms of this disease.

I was under the impression that IBD could only be diagnosed AFTER the snake had died. Is this incorrect? My spider bp is prone to fairly consistant RI's and we can't seem to get them to clear up all the way, I'm afraid to do a more aggressive antibiotics treatment since hes already been through 2 rounds. I wonder if this might be the cause since his husbandtry is the same as the rest of my collection.

sent from my EVO

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jbean7916

I was under the impression that IBD could only be diagnosed AFTER the snake had died. Is this incorrect? My spider bp is prone to fairly consistant RI's and we can't seem to get them to clear up all the way, I'm afraid to do a more aggressive antibiotics treatment since hes already been through 2 rounds. I wonder if this might be the cause since his husbandtry is the same as the rest of my collection.

sent from my EVO

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It's the most accurate way. However it can be diagnosed with live tissue biopsies from target organs.

Problem is that even a negative test does not mean your snake is clear - it just means that it wasn't in the area where the biopsy was performed. For example, we initially took liver biopsies which came back negative. The esophageal tonsil biopsy came back positive. If we had stopped at the liver, we would have incorrectly assumed my snakes were clear.

Dr. Jacobson's group recently developed a blood test for the disease. It's my understanding that a negative result from this test also does not clear you of the disease.

Our view of this disease has progressed rapidly in the last few years, so info from 2002 is fairly outdated.

As for your snake, has the vet cultured the bacteria responsible for the RI? There are several resistant strains out there that need to be cultured for antibiotic sensitivity.

A survey by Garner and Raymond (2004) determined
its prevalence among the different boid species examined
postmortem at Northwest ZooPath (Monroe, USA). The
prevalence was especially high in Boa constrictor subspecies
(>33 per cent) and in the tree boa,Corallus annulatus (28 per
cent).

From https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/doortiz2/www/IBD.pdf

Outdated study, but 33% of BCI tested postmortem were carriers. I'd call 33% pretty prevalent.

Thanks for sharing!

So, esentially there is nothing you can do to prevent this disease? It will either show up or it won't?

I believe the Barkers both have degrees in biology and both worked in (I don't recall which one) zoos with snakes, they both have published in journals. I tend to take their book as it is researched and referenced as well as any journal I have ever read. I am not questioning you or Dr E. Jacobson either. I have not had time to read the 2 papers I have found in addition to your posted link yet but much of the research is done with Boidea isn't it? I understood that they could be a passive carrier and carry with no symptoms for long periods of time, but Royals have not currently been found to be carriers but show symptoms quickly. I read this somewhere and as much as I hate it I cannot figure out where that was. My brief read (I have not had time to read in depth yet) (http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/college/de...JExoticPet.pdf)

that the article mentions "Boa constrictors affected by IBD also regurgitated food items within several days of feeding, in addition to the CNS disease signs described for pythons"

My understanding is that when it attacks the CNS neurological signs are rapid and evident. Is this incorrect? I could not find an reference to it. I don't have enough knowledge to make meaningful points at all. I have questions with out answers.

Has there been studies done on Royals and IBD or is it limited to Boidea?

Have there been documented cases of IBD in Royals that carry no outward signs?

When IBD enters CNS is there neurological issues?

Has there been Royals showing signs of IBD but with no CNS involvement?

I am not saying I have accurate information. I am not saying the information presented is not absolutely correct. I am saying does it apply to Royal Pythons the same way? I know boidea can carry IBD for ages I know of one whom has. What I don't know and have not seen any reference pointed to a meaningful study that Royals can carry the disease without outward symptoms. Do you have one?

May it all be as it is, BUT I think it is important to point one thing out...

Quarantine IS VERY IMPORTANT.

I think some herpers could take this information as in "oh well, quarantine can't prevent this IBD, so why bother..."

Research is still ongoing. Bugs can "evolve" and change. Some people have "hands on" experience, others work in labs, etc etc. Not all cases are "textbook" or the same.

It IS a devastating disease. One should do "all they can" to prevent ending up with it. Be vigilant about "who" and "where" you buy from. Practice good husbandry, quarantine and cleanliness. There are also other devastating bugs that can end up wiping out your collection...

I'm not going against anyones research, experience or new facts. To most of us its a no-brainer to continue being vigilant, practicing quarantine, etc etc. But I also know that some people are slack about it, and could possible take this info and use it as "why bother, won't change a thing about final outcome" reasoning.

I know this is not meant to be taken this way, just thought I'd point it out ;)

This is the problem with IBD

no two groups of people can give the same answer on it.

Vets say its fatal within months in pythons, and fatal within the same time for BABY boas.

Then you have researchers saying that it can stick around for years without showing then kill

so, for now... I am only going to believe what EXTREMELY experienced staff from RTB.net have told me

Until proven otherwise I take their word over anybody elses to be honest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I believe the Barkers both have degrees in biology and both worked in (I don't recall which one) zoos with snakes, they both have published in journals. I tend to take their book as it is researched and referenced as well as any journal I have ever read. I am not questioning you or Dr E. Jacobson either. I have not had time to read the 2 papers I have found in addition to your posted link yet but much of the research is done with Boidea isn't it? I understood that they could be a passive carrier and carry with no symptoms for long periods of time, but Royals have not currently been found to be carriers but show symptoms quickly. I read this somewhere and as much as I hate it I cannot figure out where that was. My brief read (I have not had time to read in depth yet) (http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/college/de...JExoticPet.pdf)

that the article mentions "Boa constrictors affected by IBD also regurgitated food items within several days of feeding, in addition to the CNS disease signs described for pythons"

My understanding is that when it attacks the CNS neurological signs are rapid and evident. Is this incorrect? I could not find an reference to it. I don't have enough knowledge to make meaningful points at all. I have questions with out answers.

Has there been studies done on Royals and IBD or is it limited to Boidea?

Have there been documented cases of IBD in Royals that carry no outward signs?

When IBD enters CNS is there neurological issues?

Has there been Royals showing signs of IBD but with no CNS involvement?

I am not saying I have accurate information. I am not saying the information presented is not absolutely correct. I am saying does it apply to Royal Pythons the same way? I know boidea can carry IBD for ages I know of one whom has. What I don't know and have not seen any reference pointed to a meaningful study that Royals can carry the disease without outward symptoms. Do you have one?

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Alex:

What the Barkers have degrees in is irrelevant. They are not researching the disease. Dr. Jacobson and his group are researchers at the forefront of studying and categorizing this disease.

The short answer to your question is who knows? The researchers are sorely underfunded and the community has been pathetic in helping them.

The common conventional wisdom was that boas can harbor it, pythons succumb quickly. In some cases that has happened, in others it hasn't.

The problem is people often don't find out why their pet snake has died, into the trash it goes. As more and more people are becoming educated on this, more and more people are opting for necropsies and histologies on deceased animals.

It's very important that you read the dates on what ever research papers you read. I cannot stress enough the differences in conventional wisdom on IBD from as short as three years ago to today.

If all else fails, Dr. Jacobson has shown an inclination to respond to emails. This discussion has been carried out on several forums already and in every case, Dr. J has taken the time to answer in a candid and forthright manner.

When I wrote him, I was very concerned about my antaresia, aspidites and regius. His response to me was honest: no one knows how long those species can remain asymptomatic, no one knows exactly how it's spread and no one knows how those symptoms would present themselves.

What has happened with a lot of these care sheets (including those on the sites of respected breeders) is that they parse a limited amount of info and draw absolute conclusions from them.

Case in point - 7 or 8 years ago, IBD in a boa meant stargazing, regurges and death. While that's not what the studies said, it was selectively parsed from the research and has been parroted on just about every website ver since. The fact is that for years and years, researchers have known that a large percentage of certain boid species can carry the disease indefinitely without exhibiting symptoms.

Case in point - it has been universally trumpeted that any regius afflicted with IBD dies quickly. Fact is that more and more people are finding that other boid species can carry the disease asymptomatically for an unknown period of time.

Until a cost effective screening test is available that people will use and breeders will consent to utilize to screen their animals, we aren't going to ever know exactly which species can carry the disease asymptomatically. The community hasn't really supported this research and, as I said before, some of the biggest names in the business are on record saying that IBD really doesn't exist.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Barker and Barker, BALL PYTHONS: History, Natural History, Care & Breeding 2006

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That's a pretty old report to put a lot of stock in at this time. I've got nothing but respect for the Barkers, but not a lot is known about IBD still today...more and more is being learned every year. Our understanding of the disease is evolving and what was understood in 2006 should not necessarily be taken as gospel fact today.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Alex, you made reference to the Barker's. They are not vets, they are not researchers. They are snake breeders.

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To say the Barkers are "just snake breeders" is like saying Gordon Ramsey is "just a cook." The Barkers both have advanced degrees in biology sciences and have spent many years working in the field and doing tremendous amounts of research on animals around the world. They not only have successfully published books, but also articles published in peer reviewed scientific journals. You do yourself a disservice to dismiss what they say simply because they are "just snake breeders".

I do appreciate what you're saying about IBD, though. I, too, get very tired of the boogeyman aspect of the disease and the tremendous amount of misinformation that is thrown about as hard fact. The fact is, still far too little is known about the disease. You give some anecdotal evidence of pythons being asymptomatic carriers of the disease, but did not give any actual proof. Yet, even that is now being declared as "fact" in this thread. It happens on all sides of the IBD arguments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikeV

This is the problem with IBD

no two groups of people can give the same answer on it.

Vets say its fatal within months in pythons, and fatal within the same time for BABY boas.

Then you have researchers saying that it can stick around for years without showing then kill

so, for now... I am only going to believe what EXTREMELY experienced staff from RTB.net have told me

Until proven otherwise I take their word over anybody elses to be honest.

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Most vets don't know their butts from holes in the ground. Neither do us pet owners. You are going to get several answers on this question if you are intent on asking people who get their information second hand on it.

You can put an end to all this and ask the questions from Dr. Jacobson directly. Why take anyone else's word on it? Why deal with someone else's interpretation of the data he's presented?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

The short answer to your question is who knows? The researchers are sorely underfunded and the community has been pathetic in helping them.
...
The problem is people often don't find out why their pet snake has died, into the trash it goes. As more and more people are becoming educated on this, more and more people are opting for necropsies and histologies on deceased animals.
...
Until a cost effective screening test is available that people will use and breeders will consent to utilize to screen their animals, we aren't going to ever know exactly which species can carry the disease asymptomatically. The community hasn't really supported this research and, as I said before, some of the biggest names in the business are on record saying that IBD really doesn't exist.

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To all of this I must whole-heartedly agree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

That's a pretty old report to put a lot of stock in at this time. I've got nothing but respect for the Barkers, but not a lot is known about IBD still today...more and more is being learned every year. Our understanding of the disease is evolving and what was understood in 2006 should not necessarily be taken as gospel fact today.



To say the Barkers are "just snake breeders" is like saying Gordon Ramsey is "just a cook." The Barkers both have advanced degrees in biology sciences and have spent many years working in the field and doing tremendous amounts of research on animals around the world. They not only have successfully published books, but also articles published in peer reviewed scientific journals. You do yourself a disservice to dismiss what they say simply because they are "just snake breeders".

I do appreciate what you're saying about IBD, though. I, too, get very tired of the boogeyman aspect of the disease and the tremendous amount of misinformation that is thrown about as hard fact. The fact is, still far too little is known about the disease. You give some anecdotal evidence of pythons being asymptomatic carriers of the disease, but did not give any actual proof. Yet, even that is now being declared as "fact" in this thread. It happens on all sides of the IBD arguments.

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Agreed 100%

IBD is going to be one of those guessing game diseases for a long time.

I pray that more funding and research goes into this disease, but truthfully the government isn't exactly on the side of the "snake people" and we aren't all rich, money cant be dished out left right and center.

Think about it... there are diseases that are a GRAVE concern to us, and even those diseases we know little to nothing about. Now imagine IBD.. a disease that affects animals that a majority of people are against... yeah I think thats all that needs to be said


Skiploder: I agree with you. If I asked several sources id get completely differen't answers. and vets, as you said know just about nothing (well.. the usual vet) when it comes to IBD.

I think im going to contact Dr. Jacobson and have a chat with him about it. I would love to have an intellectual discussion with somebody who is on the "front lines" so to speak

Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

That's a pretty old report to put a lot of stock in at this time. I've got nothing but respect for the Barkers, but not a lot is known about IBD still today...more and more is being learned every year. Our understanding of the disease is evolving and what was understood in 2006 should not necessarily be taken as gospel fact today.



To say the Barkers are "just snake breeders" is like saying Gordon Ramsey is "just a cook." The Barkers both have advanced degrees in biology sciences and have spent many years working in the field and doing tremendous amounts of research on animals around the world. They not only have successfully published books, but also articles published in peer reviewed scientific journals. You do yourself a disservice to dismiss what they say simply because they are "just snake breeders".

I do appreciate what you're saying about IBD, though. I, too, get very tired of the boogeyman aspect of the disease and the tremendous amount of misinformation that is thrown about as hard fact. The fact is, still far too little is known about the disease. You give some anecdotal evidence of pythons being asymptomatic carriers of the disease, but did not give any actual proof. Yet, even that is now being declared as "fact" in this thread. It happens on all sides of the IBD arguments.

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Judy:

As far as my quoted statement stands - I thinks it's fair in the context of this discussion. Whatever else they've done for this community, their stance on IBD or the information they present should not be taken over that of someone actively treating or researching it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JLC

To all of this I must whole-heartedly agree.

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With regards to pythons and being asymptomatic:

It has been established and accepted that boas can remain asymptomatic for an unknown amount of time even after developing inclusion bodies and that after showing symptoms, they can survive for an as of yet unknown period of time.

It is commonly thought that pythons, once they are symptomatic, die quickly. The key word being "symptomatic". How long and whether or not they can be asymptomatic for an indefinite period of time has not been established but as more and more people are testing their animals, more an more incidences are arising casting serious aspersions on the old parameters of the disease.

It has not been established or conclusively defined as to how soon after contracting inclusion bodies a ball pythons will begin exhibiting symptoms. Therefore, in contrast to all of the care sheets giving a definitive timeline, I am cautioning that NO ONE really knows.

For many years, web accounts painted a picture of both boas and pythons rapidly succumbing to this disease. As time has gone by, the boa part of the equation has been redefined and we found out that the opposite is often the rule, not the exception. As more time goes by, the picture on the various python species will become more clear.

As for as offering no proof, I would suggest you go back and re-read my posts concerning IBD from a couple of years ago and see exactly how this discussion has morphed. Back then I had to convince a lot of people I wasn't full of crap in that I had snakes that apparently had harbored this disease for an extended period of time.

Now that point is moot because the community has generally accepted it. Most people reading this thread would have a hard time believing that, in light of all we know today, that someone would have thought that claim so far-fetched.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MikeV

Agreed 100%

IBD is going to be one of those guessing game diseases for a long time.

I pray that more funding and research goes into this disease, but truthfully the government isn't exactly on the side of the "snake people" and we aren't all rich, money cant be dished out left right and center.

Think about it... there are diseases that are a GRAVE concern to us, and even those diseases we know little to nothing about. Now imagine IBD.. a disease that affects animals that a majority of people are against... yeah I think thats all that needs to be said


Skiploder: I agree with you. If I asked several sources id get completely differen't answers. and vets, as you said know just about nothing (well.. the usual vet) when it comes to IBD.

I think im going to contact Dr. Jacobson and have a chat with him about it. I would love to have an intellectual discussion with somebody who is on the "front lines" so to speak

Thanks!

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'
Mike:

Courtney (americanwmn) on RTB has corresponded with Dr. J also. When I get to work on Monday I can send you copies of my correspondence with him. Courtney would probably do the same if you asked her.

I think that you will find that Dr. Jacobson doesn't have answers to a lot of our questions because the answers aren't yet known.

Once you see what he can and can't answer, and compare it to the context of some of what we have often accepted as absolute and unshakeable truths, you'll see what I mean.

Points taken. :)

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

'
Mike:

Courtney (americanwmn) on RTB has corresponded with Dr. J also. When I get to work on Monday I can send you copies of my correspondence with him. Courtney would probably do the same if you asked her.

I think that you will find that Dr. Jacobson doesn't have answers to a lot of our questions because the answers aren't yet known.

Once you see what he can and can't answer, and compare it to the context of some of what we have often accepted as absolute and unshakeable truths, you'll see what I mean.

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Great! anything you can send me on this topic would be appreciated! Its unfortunate that so many answers are unknown. Hopefully Dr. Jacobson can unlock some of the mysteries within the next few years.

If you get any updated info from Dr. Jacobson or anybody else researching and studying IBD id be more than glad to hear about it, just send me a PM anytime :)

Thanks for spreading some light on this disease :gj:

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Originally Posted by JLC

Points taken. :)

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:grouphug:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

:grouphug:

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eeeewwwwww

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Originally Posted by wilomn

eeeewwwwww

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There's room for more than one in that group hug..........

I'm just taking a guess here, but it may be that IBD is like another retrovirus, HIV, in that there is not just one "strain."

Common knowledge used to be that once you turned up HIV positive, your days were numbered and that the number wasn't a large one. Now that we're a few years into recognizing HIV, strains that do not appear to cause the disease have been discovered. link We're also finding out that some folks are genetically resistant to HIV. link

I think that a lot of the conflicting information we hear about IBD is not that some folks don't know what the heck they're talking about but that they are possibly seeing the effects of different strains of IBD and how they affect animals with different inherent genetic resistances or predispositions.

Since IBD hasn't had the research money spent on it that HIV has, we're not getting a good overall view of what the true nature of the beast is. We do know that it can kill. We see that it can kill quickly in some cases; we see that in some other cases it has apparantly lain dormant for many years before becoming symptomatic, and we see indications that in some others it might not be deadly at all.

My hunch is that many different people are getting a good picture of what IBD does and does not do in how a particularly strain they have encountered affects the particular animals they have dealt with. It's kind of like the way HIV was perceived when it was first recognized. We "knew" what it did, or we thought we did. Now we know that HIV can do many things, or in some cases, it doesn't do anything at all. At this point I don't discount anyone's experiences with IBD. I just try to remind myself that whatever their experience is that it's not likely to be universal. Mine, if I do have one, might be wildly different from the next guy's and that doesn't make either of us an idiot.

My $0.02 worth. I've only ever seen one strongly suspected case of IBD in person but I have seen many cases of AIDS as a nurse and I know that the clinical picture with that retrovirus differs wildly from case to case. Viruses "like" to mutate--it's one reason that they are so difficult to pin down. Smallpox can kill, it can be survived, and it can occur undetected. Tricky things, viruses. We can't even all agree if they're alive or not.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

:grouphug:

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

eeeewwwwww

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

There's room for more than one in that group hug..........

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Wes is too prickly to admit he really wants in... :P

:D

Good post. IBD gets tossed around WAAAYYYYY too often...hopefully this calms some people's fears.

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Originally Posted by Redneck_Crow

I'm just taking a guess here, but it may be that IBD is like another retrovirus, HIV, in that there is not just one "strain."

Common knowledge used to be that once you turned up HIV positive, your days were numbered and that the number wasn't a large one. Now that we're a few years into recognizing HIV, strains that do not appear to cause the disease have been discovered. link We're also finding out that some folks are genetically resistant to HIV. link

I think that a lot of the conflicting information we hear about IBD is not that some folks don't know what the heck they're talking about but that they are possibly seeing the effects of different strains of IBD and how they affect animals with different inherent genetic resistances or predispositions.

Since IBD hasn't had the research money spent on it that HIV has, we're not getting a good overall view of what the true nature of the beast is. We do know that it can kill. We see that it can kill quickly in some cases; we see that in some other cases it has apparantly lain dormant for many years before becoming symptomatic, and we see indications that in some others it might not be deadly at all.

My hunch is that many different people are getting a good picture of what IBD does and does not do in how a particularly strain they have encountered affects the particular animals they have dealt with. It's kind of like the way HIV was perceived when it was first recognized. We "knew" what it did, or we thought we did. Now we know that HIV can do many things, or in some cases, it doesn't do anything at all. At this point I don't discount anyone's experiences with IBD. I just try to remind myself that whatever their experience is that it's not likely to be universal. Mine, if I do have one, might be wildly different from the next guy's and that doesn't make either of us an idiot.

My $0.02 worth. I've only ever seen one strongly suspected case of IBD in person but I have seen many cases of AIDS as a nurse and I know that the clinical picture with that retrovirus differs wildly from case to case. Viruses "like" to mutate--it's one reason that they are so difficult to pin down. Smallpox can kill, it can be survived, and it can occur undetected. Tricky things, viruses. We can't even all agree if they're alive or not.

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To some extent I agree with you, however in the case of IBD, a lot of the misconceptions have been deliberately spread.

If you look at the research from a decade ago they were noticing that seemingly healthy snakes submitted for research purposes tested positive for the disease. So to make a long story short, the information that there was a large number of animals out there carrying the disease (but never showing any symptoms) was out there.

What ended up happening was that a few websites parsed information from these papers and these ended up making the rounds on the forums. The scarier aspects of the disease were highlighted and some of the subtle points were ignored.

Then you had a second contingent (which the researchers will gladly talk to you about) of flat-earthers who swore up and down that IBD did not exist.

For years the boid community has done little to assist in finding a cure. In some aspects, because of their reflexive denials and poo-pooing the disease, they have only assisted in prolonging it's effect in this community.

Your analogy to AIDS is spot on and in my discussions with people dealing with IBD, that comparison inevitably comes up.

This retrovirus seems to "bloom" in asymptomatic animals when they become stressed or are afflicted with something that lowers their immune system. It was theorized at the time that my snake that became symptomatic may have been stressed by a change or surroundings. The change from asymptomatic to symptomatic occurred when the animal was moved from a cage to a rack.

What I do know is that in the many years I've been keeping snakes, I've dealt with countless RI's, bacterial infections, viral infections, protozoal infections, etc. etc. It comes with the territory of importing and breeding snakes.

In all those years I have seen quite a few snakes exhibit neurological symptoms, however none of them from snakes with IBD.

So while we sit here and dissect IBD and discuss it's seriousness and how it may be present in healthy snakes, it's important to stress that the odds of people on this forum having to deal with it are slim. While we should all be concerned, we should not be worried. And while we should all be vigilant, we should not do so to the point of being paranoid or inducing fear into people who come here seeking advice.

I had a woma python who for about two weeks exhibited classic CNS symptoms - corkscrewing, holding his head at weird angles, sleeping with his head inverted and acting really weird. If I had posted a video of him on here everyone would have screamed "IBD!".

Fearing the worst, I took him into my vet. Visions of another bout of dealing with costly biopsies and the like swam through my head.

My vet upon examining him, found that one of his lacrimal ducts was blocked at the pressure of it was literally driving him nuts.

If your snake is acting funny, take it to a vet.

If someone comes on this forum claiming their snake is acting funny - recommend they go to a vet.

Skip can I get in on the group hug too. I'll give you that the barkers info on ibd is old and out of date. In the vague hope to find more information accurate information out I wrote Dr. E Jacobsen a short email here is that email and his response that I got remarkably quickly.

Dr. Jacobson,

I have read a small amount of your work with IBD and have a simple question and I hope that you can take the time to answer if for me.

I am concerned with Royal Pythons (Python Regius) has there been evidence of them caring IBD for long periods of time with out showing symptoms? Is it correct that in this smaller species IBD typically attacks the Central nervous system quickly, and results in quick (months not years) appearance of associated symptoms, and death?

If there is research specifically relating to Python Regius, would you have a reference that you could provide to me?

Most humbly,
Alexander *edit name only*

Reply,


1. I am concerned with Royal Pythons (Python Regius) has there been evidence of them caring IBD for long periods of time with out showing symptoms?

I am not aware of any information about this,


2. Is it correct that in this smaller species IBD typically attacks the Central nervous system quickly, and results in quick (months not years) appearance of associated symptoms, and death?

Not that I am aware of.

3. If there is research specifically relating to Python Regius, would you have a reference that you could provide to me?

I do not know anyone who is focused on studying IBD in ball pythons.

EJacobson

So as far as Royals are concerned there is no information I replied back to Dr. Jacobson and thanked him for his reply and asked what is the best way to help fund his project. I'll post that once that answer arrives. It is very clear there is very little information on this subject and way more research is needed. I'd suggest that in the void to accept that pythonidae and Boiade be treated as the same or similar in response. As there is no other information at this time.

I read in passing that a lab in great briton has developed a fecal screen that they claim able to detect IBD in light of a possible dormancy which I understood to apply only to Boiade, I feel that testing is a priority. Has anyone heard this as well ? If I recall correctly they offered a international mail based system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kitedemon

Skip can I get in on the group hug too. I'll give you that the barkers info on ibd is old and out of date. In the vague hope to find more information accurate information out I wrote Dr. E Jacobsen a short email here is that email and his response that I got remarkably quickly.

Dr. Jacobson,

I have read a small amount of your work with IBD and have a simple question and I hope that you can take the time to answer if for me.

I am concerned with Royal Pythons (Python Regius) has there been evidence of them caring IBD for long periods of time with out showing symptoms? Is it correct that in this smaller species IBD typically attacks the Central nervous system quickly, and results in quick (months not years) appearance of associated symptoms, and death?

If there is research specifically relating to Python Regius, would you have a reference that you could provide to me?

Most humbly,
Alexander *edit name only*

Reply,


1. I am concerned with Royal Pythons (Python Regius) has there been evidence of them caring IBD for long periods of time with out showing symptoms?

I am not aware of any information about this,


2. Is it correct that in this smaller species IBD typically attacks the Central nervous system quickly, and results in quick (months not years) appearance of associated symptoms, and death?

Not that I am aware of.

3. If there is research specifically relating to Python Regius, would you have a reference that you could provide to me?

I do not know anyone who is focused on studying IBD in ball pythons.

EJacobson

So as far as Royals are concerned there is no information I replied back to Dr. Jacobson and thanked him for his reply and asked what is the best way to help fund his project. I'll post that once that answer arrives. It is very clear there is very little information on this subject and way more research is needed. I'd suggest that in the void to accept that pythonidae and Boiade be treated as the same or similar in response. As there is no other information at this time.

I read in passing that a lab in great briton has developed a fecal screen that they claim able to detect IBD in light of a possible dormancy which I understood to apply only to Boiade, I feel that testing is a priority. Has anyone heard this as well ? If I recall correctly they offered a international mail based system.

---

First, I think it's great that all of us have access to the Doctor. Remember, this is the guy that during the invasive species hearings in Florida, was our star witness. Add on top of that that he has shown a willingness to take the time to answer our queries and it all adds up to a real asset to our hobby.

http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/...bson091106.pdf

I watched the HR2811 hearings and Dr. Jacobson was by far the most compelling person testifying for our side.

Second, it important to note your second question and his corresponding answer - the myth that has been propagated that IBD somehow attacks the CNS of smaller animals quicker, or that symptoms progress more rapidly in smaller species.

The answer alone should get people thinking about their QT procedures a little more carefully.

Third, in regard to the Barker's and IBD info in general: at least the Barker's are trying to educate people on the disease. There are some breeders who still deny there is such a thing called IBD.

The problem with a lot of the info in the community is that fact has been thoroughly intertwined with supposition.

I have a theory on where the idea that regius are killed quickly by IBD came from. A number of years ago there was a well circulated story about a lady who had IBD devastate her ball collection fairly quickly.

http://www.anapsid.org/deanne.html

Again, this story has been repeated on just about every snake forum on the net.

At the same time, there were a couple of other keepers who lost boa collections with the same rapidity But for some reason, that one well-travelled account with balls stuck in everyone's head.

Whether it was actually IBD that killed that collection or whether IBD weakened them enough that a nasty and antibiotic resistant infection in her collection took them out, no one knows. If you read the entire article, she never references a positive identification by a lab - just that Kaplan suggested it sounded like IBD and that her vet was planning on a necropsy.

Doesn't matter - I think that it is that story and others like it that became the basis for the "IBD rapidly kills balls" theory. My personal opinion is that it's articles like this which fuel the misconceptions about the disease. Now whenever someone has something ravage their boid collection, IBD is usually fingered, even though other culprits may be responsible, and even when there is no testing to prove it.

The moral of the story is to take what you read with a grain of salt. If you are the type of person who has no patience for research papers, try e-mailing Dr. Jacobson directly. I do not know of one person who he hasn't gotten back to.

In some cases, you may find that some of what you heard is correct, others, incorrect and oftentimes, you will find that what some people spout as fact, Dr. Jacobson and the research community does not yet know the answer.

....and until they know all the answers, I concur with you Alex - all affected boid species should be treated the same with regards to IBD.

My last reply from Dr. Jacobson,

I have a graduate student, Li-Wen Chang, who does the IBD testing. How to submit samples and the cost of the test can be found at:

http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/college/de...sacs/research/

All arrangements for sending samples need to go through Dr. Chang. Checks for donations should be made out to: University of Florida Research Foundation. In memo section of check enter "For IBD Research".

I am adding a link I found..

https://www.uff.ufl.edu/OnlineGiving/

In case snail mails is not your thing. If it is...

Mail gifts to:
Linda Raney
Gift Processing Manager
University of Florida Foundation, Inc.
P.O. Box 14425
Gainesville, FL 32604-2425

Alex.