Safe this bee in China. Please !

One of my friend bought a bee from China. It is very expensive, 1000USD.

He told me when he got him, yesterday. he was full with mites, after soak in the water, there are around 40+ came out. ( he already know how to deal with that)

The problem is, the bee looks weak, and always has his head turned upside down. Here are the pictures of the head. Is this normal? He is very worried right now.

He contacted the seller, the seller in China said this is normal. really?

http://bbs.pxtx.com/data/attachment/...0c4o2b320b.jpg

http://bbs.pxtx.com/data/attachment/...d5u2kdle12.jpg

http://bbs.pxtx.com/data/attachment/...yobtzb00qc.jpg

That's either a more pronounced case of the classic spider "wobble" or it's something a lot worse, from what I heard.

Either way, a snake keeping its head upside down is definitely not "normal" behavior.

:mad::Oomfg!!!!! that is so not normal... i hope you find someone to help that snake and i would report that person for animal cruelty.

:rage:

im so sorry your little guy is that bad... wish i could help but idk what to do and have never dealt with anything like that all i know is that that behavior is not normal...

Looks like a BAD wobbler.

It may be normal for this snake, so I would watch it and make sure that it can eat and drink accordingly.

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LonelyGhost:
that is so not normal... i hope you find someone to help that snake and i would report that person for animal cruelty.

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I have a male spider that sleeps with his head upside down at times lol, call the police I'm abusing it :rofl:

Wobbling and or corkscrewing spiders tend to go upside down a lot, but if it can't right itself then it is probably a really bad wobbler and may have issues eating and or drinking.

WOW

I was hoping to hear that this is normal and he will be OK.

WOW.... I don't even know how to tell my friend..... If this is a genetic problem, well poor thing. if this is costed by the seller... WTF !!! What a ......

I will tell him to keep a eye on this guy see if he will eat or drink. meanwhile there are 100s mites on him :(

Thanks everyone !!

Spiders have a genetic wobble. That looks like a very prominent wobble/corkscrewing. Like someone else said it's "technically" normal for anything with the spider gene (bee's are spider x pastel) to wobble to some extent, that's just a more extreme case. Make sure it eats and drinks normally and it shouldn't be an issue.

Edit: For the mites I recommend Provent A Mite....not sure if it's available in China but it's worth searching for. I'd be more worried about the mites than the wobble.

Thanks guys.

too bad I had a feeling that this little guy will die !!!
:(

His severe wobble may be caused by all those mites... Stress tends to make a snake's wobble a little worse than normal, and since the mites would cause the snake a lot of discomfort, they would also cause the snake to stress out. My advice would be to, obviously, get rid of the mites, then when those are gone, just set him up in a decent enclosure (right temps, humidity, the works), and leave him be for a while.

Poor guy probably just needs some R&R :(

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Originally Posted by mc5guy

Thanks guys.

too bad I had a feeling that this little guy will die !!!
:(

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If you get him proper mite treatment, not just soaking in water, then I'm sure he'll have a chance to live. As long as he can eat and drink properly, there shouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't start digging his grave just yet.. give him a chance. Those mites need to be taken care of as soon as possible though.

Like it was said already, soaking isn't going to treat the mite problem. Your friend needs to get something like PAM, provent a mite http://www.pro-products.com/index.ph...d=53&Itemid=59 I wouldn't use anything else.

As for his head issues, my guess is that he has a bad spider wobble. It's something everyone should be aware of when they are buying anything with the spider gene. There are very few cases in which it is life threatening. If he eats, he'll be fine.

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

I have a male spider that sleeps with his head upside down at times lol, call the police I'm abusing it :rofl:

Wobbling and or corkscrewing spiders tend to go upside down a lot, but if it can't right itself then it is probably a really bad wobbler and may have issues eating and or drinking.

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i was not trying to be a jerk to anyone i just never knew a wobble could look like that... i have heard of slight wobbles but if thats a normal wobble for that specific spider than poor thing but if it caused by the breeder then thats sooo not cool... i mean he even looks a little skinny from the picture and if he really is as thin in real life than that means he hasnt been eating right. it makes me sad, mad and confused because sure i dont know the situation but that snake does not look happy or as healthy as he should be

OWNER: just take care of him now cuz at least hes under your care and im sure you will try everything to help that snake. best wishes to you

i would still tell him to take the lil buddy to a herpvet to be on the safe side,but thats just me.

A herp vet or provent a mite might be difficult finds in china :confused:

You can get Provent a Mite shipped to China as there's sellers on Ebay that ship them worldwide.

Also the wobble can range to barely there to train wreck like you see in photo. Its normal and nothing can be done. Spider gene will do some funky stuff to their motor skills. And its nothing to worry about.

The mites on other hand need to be dealt with ASAP before the snake becomes anemic from blood loss

Sad to say, your friend should have done a LOT more research before jumping in to buying a snake he knew nothing about.

Anyone who knows anything at all about spiders knows they have this issue, and that any morph carrying the spider gene can have it too. There is a ton of information on the internet on this wobble, and hundreds of videos on YouTube.

Now, this snake is underweight at the moment, but it's obviously eaten before or it wouldn't be as big as it is. The first and most important thing is to get rid of those mites. You freind needs to get on Ebay and buy a can of Proven-a-Mite and have it shipped to him. In the meantime, he can soak the snake every day in lukewarm water with a single drop of shampoo in it to break the surface tension on the water and help drown the mites. This IS NOT a permanent solution, just a temporary one until the Provent-a-Mite shows up.

The snake needs a warm, quiet place to rest and as little handling as possible. Your friend should not offer food for at least 5 days of minimal disturbance of this snake. This animal will always wobble to some degree, however once the stress of mites and moving subside, it should improve. There is no reason for this animal to die unless your friend let's it die.

Send your friend here to read and learn all he can, treat the mites and allow the animal to rest and de-stress and it should be fine.

Gale

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

A herp vet or provent a mite might be difficult finds in china :confused:

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oh he lives in China,i thought he got it shipped from China.thats a good point that may be hard to do.eeekkk

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

i was not trying to be a jerk to anyone i just never knew a wobble could look like that... i have heard of slight wobbles but if thats a normal wobble for that specific spider than poor thing but if it caused by the breeder then thats sooo not cool... i mean he even looks a little skinny from the picture and if he really is as thin in real life than that means he hasnt been eating right. it makes me sad, mad and confused because sure i dont know the situation but that snake does not look happy or as healthy as he should be

OWNER: just take care of him now cuz at least hes under your care and im sure you will try everything to help that snake. best wishes to you

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Well it's both; it is genetic, and it is caused by the breeder (for breeding spiders).

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

Well it's both; it is genetic, and it is caused by the breeder (for breeding spiders).

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Not caused by the breeder, caused by Mother nature with inheritable genetics.

And by breeding snakes with the defect, the breeder has chosen to perpetuate the defect.

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

The breeder chose to perpetuate the defect.

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All spiders have the wobble, as its genetic and nothing can stop it. To look down on a breeder for breeding spiders is crazy. As im sure you have a spider or spider cross in your collection.

Actually I don't own any spiders, nor do I plan to unless breeders make concerted efforts to breed them more intelligently. Thanks for your opinion though.

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

Actually I don't own any spiders, nor do I plan to unless breeders make concerted efforts to breed them more intelligently. Thanks for your opinion though.

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Spiders wobble Period. Theres NO way to cross breed them to eliminate the wobble. Spider gene is the top selling morph in the BP industry.

Because YOU dont like them, dont mean you jump into a forum discussion and belittle breeders who breed them as their an AWESOME mutation.

It is a given with spiders and spider based morphs. They all have a wobble some more than others. The breeder is not blameless however shipping a snake with mites is poor practice at best, and also selling a spider based animal with a magor wobble the customer should have been informed before the purchase.

As per mites there are chemical treatments (P-A-M) but if you do not have any don't wait fot it keep up the soapy water soak (a little soap not lots mild hand soap) everyday and before the snake returns to its enclosure The enclosure must by scrubbed spot less (bleach 10%) and boiling water in the enclosure as well every day! Before the soaked snake is returned. The same for the area surrounding the enclosure it too must be cleaned as well, everyday. The adult mites leave to lay eggs the can travel farther than you think and they like damp dark areas so keep things drier than normal and scrub into the corners of everything.

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

And by breeding snakes with the defect, the breeder has chosen to perpetuate the defect.

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To add to what Rich said. You can breed an almost perfect spider and get train wrecks. You can also breed a train wreck spider and get almost perfect spiders. You will never find a perfect spider. People that say they have a perfect wobble free spider haven't looked at their spider close enough. My spider looks wobble free, but if you really pay attention you can tell his movements are a little abnormal/twitchy especially during feeding time.

The breeder is not a bad breeder for breeding the spider gene, he's a shady breeder because he sold a snake in poor health-infested with mites.

So it's all about the money for you Rich? Get a kid addicted to meth/crack/cocain and he'll be your customer for life. Does that make it ok to sell drugs to kids (or anyone)?

Rich, apparently you and I have our differences, personally I take it with a grain of salt; but we shouldn't hijack this guys thread to have it out. Maybe we should start a LizardPants VS. RichsBallPythons thread.

I have also seen spiders whom have almost no wobble but as they age it gets worse, and the other way around a very wobbly spider seem to get it under control and not wobble so much. It is a bit of a luck of the draw.

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

So it's all about the money for you Rich? Get a kid addicted to meth/crack/cocain and he'll be your customer for life. Does that make it ok to sell drugs to kids (or anyone)?

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Totally uncalled for dude! Rich was just stating a fact. Spiders are among the most popular balls, has nothing to do with making the money.

Some people think kids with downs syndrome are cute, does that mean they should try to have a kid with a disorder?

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

Some people think kids with downs syndrome are cute, does that mean they should try to have a kid with a disorder?

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Ok now you are starting to piss me off, grow up!!!!! you are comparing apples to oranges here.

The answer is easy all morphs of everything carry a genetic concern so don't buy and morphs of anything. Then you will not be supporting questionable genetic practice.

If you feel so strongly about that, maybe you should remove your Gandhi quote.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

The answer is easy all morphs of everything carry a genetic concern so don't buy and morphs of anything. Then you will not be supporting questionable genetic practice.

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Maybe so, but not all morphs have neurological disorders.

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

If you feel so strongly about that, maybe you should remove your Gandhi quote.

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Really?

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

So it's all about the money for you Rich? Get a kid addicted to meth/crack/cocain and he'll be your customer for life. Does that make it ok to sell drugs to kids (or anyone)?

Rich, apparently you and I have our differences, personally I take it with a grain of salt; but we shouldn't hijack this guys thread to have it out. Maybe we should start a LizardPants VS. RichsBallPythons thread.

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That type of thread is exactly why we have a Quarantine room - take it there.

As for the comparison to selling drugs - that's a ridiculous comparison. I have spiders, I love spiders, and I will breed spider and spider combinations for MY pleasure. If I happen to have some animals that other buyers may want, then I'm happy to provide them for them - with full disclosure about the spider wobble.

There's no need to demonize those of us who have chosen to work with them, just because you've chosen not to. That's well within your right. But it's not within your right to insist that others share your opinion and if they don't they are likened to a drug dealer.

My spider does the same thing especially when stressed out. Cure the mites and make sure it is left alone for a few weeks until it is used to it's enclosure and it ill calm down a lot. The upside down part will remain tho. Make sure you DO NOT feed live unless absolutely necessary as they will put themselves in danger trying to eat with the wobble that bad.

Back to the mite issue. As others have said soaking will do nothing to get rid of them. It will provide some temporary relief at best. You really need to either get prevent a mite or, if you can't get prevent a mite fast enough, Lice Bedding spray will work just as well. I don't know if there are walmarts in china, but something like this with the active ingredient 0.50% Permethrin is what you want: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Equate-Lic...-5-oz/10324555

I wouldn't worry too much about the wobble. It sucks that he got a bad wobbler, but if he chooses the keep spiders it is something that he will have to deal with. From his size, it's obvious that he has been eating so I am sure once he gets the mites taken care of he will eat just fine for them

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

Maybe so, but not all morphs have neurological disorders.

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That we know of, don't get me wrong I understand your point but most morphs are genetically compromised. Breeding back is not the way to good genetics period. There are so many inheritable traits that are completely ignored temperament is genetically traceable do you see anyone breeding a calm easy going snake to another calm easy going snake rather than the flighty high strung snakes?

So you won't support spiders how about poor feeders and nervous animals too, your statements have been very aggressive that is fine no problem from me but where does it end. OK no spiders, I get it. oh but this line of ___ is poor feeders them too? There is much more to genetics than a wobbles. I almost agree with you, I love my spider, he has very little wobble. But doing it again I might have gone pinstripe. That is my choice I don't place that on anyone else. You are, so where does it stop any genetic flaw... albinos are light sensitive... Leucistic is missing key Chromatephores that makes it prone to UV damage. That also is a flaw. What you have started and by your logic we'd have Mojave, Chocolates, Cinnamons, reduced, stripes, and normals. That is about it, they have occurred naturally and have come in in numbers over the years and are not traced back to one or two genetic odd balls. All spiders are related somewhere down the line, I hope that someone will eventually be able to breed it out to some extent but it is a deep imperative as all spiders have the same trait. So I put it to you, give up all morphs but for a very few that are essentially variations on normal? Or keep the morphs and accept that some have genetic issues that go along with it. My issues are not that a spider has a wobble, but that to what extent is made aware before purchase. I was told very accurately what and how much of a wobble there was before I bought the animal, that is fair.

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Originally Posted by LizardPants

So it's all about the money for you Rich? Get a kid addicted to meth/crack/cocain and he'll be your customer for life. Does that make it ok to sell drugs to kids (or anyone)?

Rich, apparently you and I have our differences, personally I take it with a grain of salt; but we shouldn't hijack this guys thread to have it out. Maybe we should start a LizardPants VS. RichsBallPythons thread.

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Okay, allow me to break this down for you in a way that somebody so ridiculously outrageous such as yourself could understand:

1. A genetic, UNINTENDED neurological disorder in an animal is about 600 million light years away in comparison to somebody doing or dealing DRUGS

2. If other people work with the spider gene, it doesn't make them a bad person or breeder.

IT IS A SNAKE it most certainly doesn't know it has a problem. Think about it... if you were born as a spider ball python.. would you know that you are any differen't from the others in the species?

No you wouldn't. because snakes.. I hate to say it.. are relatively simple in the head. do you know what im saying? they aren't too smart.

So... if the snake is healthy but has a little wobble, and it has NO IDEA that its any differen't from any other snake... then whats the problem

No, the problem is that you see the odd spider die from a severe wobble and assume thats the norm

No man....


thats all I have to say. your attitude and your terrible logic makes me wonder if you are one of the many trolls that have been feasting on this website lately.

Im done now. have a great day

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Originally Posted by J.Vandegrift

Back to the mite issue. As others have said soaking will do nothing to get rid of them.

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Mites drown in water, if my guess is correct the importing from the US to communist China is a problem. Soaking in soapy water with intensive enclosure cleaning and the surrounding area. Mites drown and adults need to lay eggs if you drown the adults and kill all the eggs and adults and make sure that they cannot return will get rid of all the mites. It takes a lot of work and effort everyday with out fail. Remember let things dry out some Mites NEED water the snake can manage in drier than normal conditions for the 7 day life cycle of a mite.

Permethrin is a poison, it works but if you can only get higher % than 0.5% you run a serious risk of poisoning the animal. If you cannot get P-A-M and do not have the correct instructions ask before you use it to get exact instructions here. I have seen lice treatment s in Turkey that were 8% Permethrin so be very very careful that you do not have anything that strong! Check the label carefully!!!

:hijackd:

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Mites drown in water, if my guess is correct the importing from the US to communist China is a problem. Soaking in soapy water with intensive enclosure cleaning and the surrounding area. Mites drown and adults need to lay eggs if you drown the adults and kill all the eggs and adults and make sure that they cannot return will get rid of all the mites. It takes a lot of work and effort everyday with out fail. Remember let things dry out some Mites NEED water the snake can manage in drier than normal conditions for the 7 day life cycle of a mite.

Permethrin is a poison, it works but if you can only get higher % than 0.5% you run a serious risk of poisoning the animal. If you cannot get P-A-M and do not have the correct instructions ask before you use it to get exact instructions here. I have seen lice treatment s in Turkey that were 8% Permethrin so be very very careful that you do not have anything that strong! Check the label carefully!!!

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Right, Mites will drown in water, but soaking a snake will not completely rid a snake of mites. There are plenty of places on a snake that water may not get to while soaking. Mites can be inside the eye socket and you will never drown every mite on a snake while soaking.

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Originally Posted by J.Vandegrift

Right, Mites will drown in water, but soaking a snake will not completely rid a snake of mites. There are plenty of places on a snake that water may not get to while soaking. Mites can be inside the eye socket and you will never drown every mite on a snake while soaking.

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The probablem generally isn't the body of the snake in this case, its all the nooks, cracks and crannies inside the enclosure where the mites have laid eggs. Those eggs hatch in about 30 days and the cycle begins again.

Just trying to help, I am glad that you all are so confident that you can get P-A-M over night to China. I am not so confident, it is hard enough to get in Canada.

In the mean time. You can put a lot of work into soaking with soap and water everyday and meticulous cleaning of EVERY nook and cranny in and around the enclosure for 10-30 days.

I am just trying to offer solutions that I know 100% that the OP has access to not solutions that the op might not have access to.

http://www.vpi.com/publications/the_...of_snake_mites

VPI suggests soap as a viable treatment for mites in their book. It takes a lot of work but has in the past.

Dri-Die also will work if you have some...

My point is do not wait for chemicals, start treating NOW!!! Not in a month when the chemicals arrive. Something is better than nothing at all. Do not let the animal suffer with mites UNCHECKED while you wait for a package to arrive. Soaking may not be the best but it is more humane than waiting around as some are suggesting. :colbert::colbert::colbert: