Thought This Was Too Cute

My too girls were cuddling in their tub together. the picture also shows off their color contrast and size tonight lol.:D

http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/...1/GEDC1741.jpg

How adorable!

Very, very cute!

Was it cleaning day ?

Gale

you should soak the big girl to help get the stuck shed off of her head :)

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Originally Posted by angllady2

Very, very cute!

Was it cleaning day ?

Gale

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yes it was cleaning day for them and i had also just boughten a 50 quart tub for them....

also while i was setting up the new tub i had her soaking in the bathtub and the skin on her head finally shed off so now its gone

Aww its like a mom and a baby lol.

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

yes it was cleaning day for them and i had also just boughten a 50 quart tub for them....

also while i was setting up the new tub i had her soaking in the bathtub and the skin on her head finally shed off so now its gone

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I think what Gale was asking was if you normally house them together.

oh yes... i normally house them together as they are both female and seem to enjoy each others company

no matter where tinkerbell my big girl is tangerine is always close by either curled up in her coil or stretched out on the carpet together.

although when it comes to feeding they are seperated and provided the proper size rat (fuzzy/medium rats) then placed back in their tub together to bask in the heated part of their tub

the only risk your running is your little one getting eaten. Not telling you how to do things you just may want to think again about keeping them together if you want to keep both

ok ill keep that in mind. ive never heard of ball pythons canabalizing each other though :confused::O

Its not common, but it has happened. She could mistake the little one for food, one quick movement and stike and shes gone, would hate for you to lose her that way.

i had bp's also when i was 16....... i had a 150 gallon tank that i kept 5 ball pythons in for over 2 years untill i sold them all

Never had a problem and two were about 4 feet easily over 1000 grams and all the others were hatchlings

ill be careful though and monitor their time together. ill have to buy another tub for tangerine though so she isnt living with tinkerbell all the time

I"m not saying you will have a problem, I hope you dont

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

i had bp's also when i was 16....... i had a 150 gallon tank that i kept 5 ball pythons in for over 2 years untill i sold them all

Never had a problem and two were about 4 feet easily over 1000 grams and all the others were hatchlings

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Poor snakes :colbert:

The only time BPs should be housed together is when you are *intentionally* trying to breed them. BPs are extremely solitary animals; housing them together causes unnecessary stress. "Cuddling" is merely them fighting for the best hides, basking spots, etc.

After proper QT, a group photo shoot is fine, but extended or permanent housing together is asking for trouble.

Please give these wonderful animals the respect they deserve and provide them with their OWN enclosure.

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Originally Posted by Ch^10

Poor snakes :colbert:

Please give these wonderful animals the respect they deserve and provide them with their OWN enclosure.

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please dont make it seem like im being a bad owner. the tub is almost the size of a baby crib so its not like in cramping 2 snakes in a tiny rack type tub. when they had seperate cages they refused any meal both live or dead and since i have been caging them together they are eating like champs.

i let them out in my home all day to roam their enclosed room which is snake proof and completely empty except for the tub

even when i feed them they need to be placed in clear tubs side by side or they wont eat their rat(s)

either my snakes are weird or something more than meets the eye is going on between them... to be honest i wish i coulds speak snake cuz i would ask them

Its just the simple fact that there are less potential problems with housing separately, so most of us wonder why wouldn't you house them separately? You might not have problems, but if you do, it will seem pretty silly then eh?

to clearify as to why i choose to keep them together.

I used to have them caged seperatly when i first got them. the tubs were originally clear and were placed directly beside each other on a shelf. The snakes were eating great (2-3 rats a week) and all was going well until Tinkerbell outgrew her tub and needed to me moved to a bigger one.

I bought a large clear tub but because both tubs could not fit side by side on my shelf they were moved around and that resulted in them both refusing food and staying curled up in the cold corners of their tubs.

I went out and bought a larger tub (almost the size of a baby crib) and made sure it was big enough that they would not fight over spots in the tub so i made sure there were 2 hot spots and 2 cool spots. During feeding time they are removed and placed in 2 clear tubs side by side so they can see each other otherwise they refuse their food until i move them.

They also have a whole room enclosed and snake proof just so they can be loose from the tub all day. I have yet to peek in and see them more than 3 feet from each other

To LonelyGhost -- You'll want to realize that most folks here are very passionate about the well-being of the pets we all keep, and housing ball pythons together is not usually considered a good idea. Therefore, anytime you demonstrate that you do so, you are likely to get many responses trying to explain to you that it's a bad idea. Some will be more diplomatic about it....some...less so. It's not a matter of judging you as a "good" or "bad" keeper, it's just a matter of wanting what is believed to be best for the animals, and doing their best to convince you of that. Some people, though, may be abrasive about it...just a heads up.

To everyone else -- Once you've said your piece about housing animals separately, then let it drop, please. Every keeper figures out what works best for them and that is what they are going to do. Beating them over the head with arguments doesn't help. (NOT saying any "beating" has begun in this thread yet...but we've all seen it happen before and I'd just like to head that off.) We all choose our own path and do what we feel is best for our animals...and those paths will not all be identical...ever. Give reasons for what you believe...but then it's up to the reader to decide for themselves...not up to us to force it down their throats. ;)

i am being careful and am now aware of the risk, but my 2 snakes seem happy and maybe they are just the odd balls of the ball python world... i dont know. but if its best for my snakes and keeps them healthy and gaining good weight then jeeze im willing to turn a whole room in my house into a ball pyton cage just to keep both of them pleased and healthy.

sometimes animals bond in the oddest way like a snake and mouse or lion and gazzel.... it happens thats the way our world works.

i appreciate all your guys input and will keep that in mind as a ball python owner because i do love my 2 girls and nothing means more to me than their care and their happiness

Just so you know, snakes don't have emotions or feelings. What you think is cute and "cuddling" is actually the larger snake showing dominance over the smaller snake. I don't think they stopped eating because they couldn't see each other. The MUCH more likely explanation is that when you switched the tub, there was either something wrong with the environment (temps, humidity, not enough hiding places, etc) or they could have just been stressed from being moved.

You're really opening yourself up to BIG risks by keeping them together. Say one of them gets a respiratory infection... Well, you now have twice the vet bill because if one has one, the other is going to get it too... How about if one of them regurgitates a meal after you feed them and move them back. How are you going to know which one? And no, ball python cannibalism isn't COMMON, but there are documented cases of it. There are MANY more reasons that I don't have the time, energy or desire to list, but if you do a search here for "cohabitation" you will find all the reasons it's a bad idea.

There are a lot of experienced keepers - both hobbyists and breeders - on this site with decades and decades of experience, and I guarantee that not a single one would advise you to keep those snakes housed together long term for ANY reason.

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Originally Posted by Inknsteel

Say one of them gets a respiratory infection... Well, you now have twice the vet bill because if one has one, the other is going to get it too....

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Really? I wasnt aware that an RI was transmissable. (transmittable?)

to be honest i truely think all animals even reptiles have emotions. Im a huge animal lover and am well aquainted with affection from animals to humans and when i was 16 i had a ball python named russian rioulete. he loved going to school with me, curling at my stomach around bedtime, riding in cars and i sware he gave kisses.

If i asked for a kiss and made the kissy sounds he would touch his nose to my lips. He was a rescue and when i rescued him he had been abandoned in a trash heap, was completely blind and infested with ticks. he was my baby boy and i think he was honestly happy i was his owner and rescuer

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

i am being careful and am now aware of the risk, but my 2 snakes seem happy and maybe they are just the odd balls of the ball python world... i dont know. but if its best for my snakes and keeps them healthy and gaining good weight then jeeze im willing to turn a whole room in my house into a ball pyton cage just to keep both of them pleased and healthy.

sometimes animals bond in the oddest way like a snake and mouse or lion and gazzel.... it happens thats the way our world works.

i appreciate all your guys input and will keep that in mind as a ball python owner because i do love my 2 girls and nothing means more to me than their care and their happiness

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My biggest issue is that you say things like "seem happy" and "maybe they are just the odd balls of the ball python world." It seams like you are anthropomorphizing your snakes. The fact that you are willing to devote a whole room to your snakes is completely irrelevant. They don't need a whole room. Some animals do bond but snakes don't. What you are seeing is not bonding. You think its cute and have been calling it bonding for so long that you are not willing to accept it as anything else. At the end of the day its your decision but you have to ask yourself, when you say that you are willing to do anything for them, does that include research. How much have you read about ball pythons. I will leave you with this. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...nnibalism2.jpg

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Originally Posted by Egapal

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p...nnibalism2.jpg

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I have done research on co-ihabiting and cannibalization of Bp's and every care sheet and documentation i have looked at or read through says it is possible to keep them together although coihabiting is not always recommended. also everything i have read on cannibalism has been linked to under-feeding or feeding a snake food that is not adaquitly sized or feeding 2 snakes in the same cage.

my snakes eat 3 fat good sized rats every week (according to the snakes size), are always seperated in feeder tubs which are alos kept at 75-80 degrees. but still within view of each other at feeding time. i never feed them in the main tub because i do not want them to get aggressive if i reach in to touch them

TO EACH HIS OWN--- not all snake owners are the same and i would not do this with any other ball pythons unless i had real reason to belive the health of my snakes depended on it. I would rather risk these 2 co-inhabiting a very large tub rather than each of them starving which is what they do when seperated. i also have plenty to invest in vet bills should health issues ever arise

None of you own these 2 snakes so you can not possibly know exactly how they act when it comes to being seperated or together... its not pleasant


I AM BY NO MEANS SAYING I AM AN EXPERT BUT I AM AWARE OF THE RISKS AND HAVE DONE SOME RESEARCH.... IM NOT A NEGLAGENT PERSON RANDOMLY THROWING THEM TOGETHER.

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

I have done research on co-ihabiting and cannibalization of Bp's and every care sheet and documentation i have looked at or read through says it is possible to keep them together although coihabiting is not always recommended. also everything i have read on cannibalism has been linked to under-feeding or feeding a snake food that is not adaquitly sized or feeding 2 snakes in the same cage.

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I thought you said you had never heard of it?

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

ok ill keep that in mind. ive never heard of ball pythons canabalizing each other though :confused::O

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

my snakes eat 3 fat good sized rats every week (according to the snakes size), are always seperated in feeder tubs which are alos kept at 75-80 degrees. but still within view of each other at feeding time.

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That seams like you are overfeeding them.

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

i never feed them in the main tub because i do not want them to get aggressive if i reach in to touch them

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Many people consider cage aggression, at least in BP's to be a myth.

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

TO EACH HIS OWN--- not all snake owners are the same and i would not do this with any other ball pythons unless i had real reason to belive the health of my snakes depended on it. I would rather risk these 2 co-inhabiting a very large tub rather than each of them starving which is what they do when seperated. i also have plenty to invest in vet bills should health issues ever arise

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You said that your reason was that when you separated them they stopped eating. Since I have never seen any research showing that BP's bond in such a way it seams far more likely that there was a husbandry issue with the new setups or that the snake was on a fast from being overfed or just the time of the year. BP's are notorious for fasting. I don't see any evidence to support your causal link.

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

None of you own these 2 snakes so you can not possibly know exactly how they act when it comes to being seperated or together... its not pleasant

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This is just flat out wrong. Its possible to make educated assumptions based on the body of knowledge concerning the multitude of other BP kept in captivity. Its unlikely in the extreme that yours are that different from every other BP.

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

I AM BY NO MEANS SAYING I AM AN EXPERT BUT I AM AWARE OF THE RISKS AND HAVE DONE SOME RESEARCH.... IM NOT A NEGLAGENT PERSON RANDOMLY THROWING THEM TOGETHER.

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No one is calling you a neglagent person. We are all just trying to help. Please try not to take anyones posts as personal attacks. They aren't. We all have snakes that we love and care for as well. Sorry for the follow up post JLC but I have said my piece now and I will leave it at that.

awww that is adorable

I know there is alot of controversy with reptile owners and most think reptiles like ball pythons are too simple minded to bond with anyone but when you own a dozen or so more ball pythons there is not enough time in your day to create a bond like some people belive there is.

I personally take my snakes everywhere with me... shopping, to the store, the park, etc and since i have only 2 yes i can devote a full day to handling them and giving them attention. Ball pythons are not just simple minded creatures because they recognize our scents from others, know our touch and the way we handle them. and can actually be tought to interact with their owners... it takes alot of time but when you have only 2 snakes and a whole day to do nothing you come to realize just how un-simple these animals are... they are very complex.

To be honest most people who own many snakes get that simple minded impression cuz they dont know all their snakes on a one on one basis... of course when in a tub they do nothing but honestly what is there to do in a tub but coil up and strike at food or whatever enters the tub itself.

I will not comment any longer because i feel you will not listen entirely to what i am telling you.

Im not an expert but im familier with my 2 snakes

They are adorable. My only 2 cents on housing them together is this. If they simply refuse to eat unless they can see each other, then fine. Your snakes are the exception to the rule. As far as cannibalism. No it isn't common but when it does happen, it's a case if mistaken identity.

After a snake feeds, it is still in feeding mode. The scent of rodent on the other snake may cause a strike.

Here's a true story... My first snake was an albino Burmese. One night I had my boyfriend feed him while I was at work. This was 16 years ago when all pet stores told you to use a heat rock. My local reptile store at the time told me to wrap the heat rock in a hand towel to diffuse the heat and prevent burns. Well I get a panicked phone call at work that night from my boyfriend telling me my snake is trying to swallow the towel. It had gotten blood on it from the rat and Archon started swallowing it after he ate the rat.

I had to direct him over the phone on gently holding the mouth open and pulling the 6 inches or so of towel out of his throat without snagging his teeth.

It was a stressful time but he was ok. After that, I built him a custom cage with under cage heat and a screened heat lamp and got rid of that darn rock and towel.

All it takes is a scent.

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

To be honest most people who own many snakes get that simple minded impression cuz they dont know all their snakes on a one on one basis... of course when in a tub they do nothing but honestly what is there to do in a tub but coil up and strike at food or whatever enters the tub itself.

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I agree that they all have different personalities. Back when I only had 5 I knew how each one extremely well. I didn't do everything with them but I did spend 5-10 minutes discribing their different personalities to a friend. Now I don't know them as well because 1.) I have more and 2.) I've been working more. Every snake is different. :)

If housing them together works for you and them then all the power to you. I know how fustrating it can be when they don't eat, I have a small female currently on a one month hunger strike.

Not telling you how to house them but giving you a story. I housed two ball pythons together at one point. One snake ate and the other didn't. The one who didn't eat must have smelled rat on the one who did eat so it struck and coiled the one who ate. I could've lost a snake. Thank goodness I had a friend to call and tell me what to do. Both snakes were fine but I could have potentially lost one or both. Just my input.

Good luck.

The main problems with housing a smaller animal with a bigger one is
1. Accidental suffocation. Laying on the hotspot big girl accidentally lays on little girl accidentally killing her.
2. Stress due to competition of space equals Ris, refusal of food.
3. Accidental canabilism

My take on it is housing a smaller baby with an adult is irresponsible. However you are doing things is irrelevant. In my opinion animals of like size should only be housed together. And the proper research needs to be done to accommodate for both. A 50 gallon tub just isn't going to do it. Therefor I can only assume you haven't done the proper research on cohabitation

i know i said i wasnt gonna reply anymore but i decided last night to try the seperate tubs again.

I had to clear off my whole shelf but i managed to get a 50 quart tub for tinkerbell and then i got one of those Reptile Critter Keeper cages for tangerine ( Large is 18" L x 12" W x 7" H)

so now they are sperated in those 2 tubs/containers but of course their cages are side by side so they can see each other like before... we will see how feeding time goes on sunday when they are sheduled to be fed their rat(s)... i hope this works and that they will eat

Dont let these guys get to you, as you can see some people here know what they are talking about and A LOT only know what they google, or hear from a friend of a friend.
We started with 2 together and one would eat and the other not as often. Guess what???
They are BOTH in tubs and one STILL eats and THE OTHER NOT SO OFTEN:gj::gj:

id eat a human if i havn't eaten in five days.:crazy:

but that is adorable.

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

... we will see how feeding time goes on sunday when they are sheduled to be fed their rat(s)... i hope this works and that they will eat

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Just bear in mind that getting put into a new home can throw ANY ball python off its feed and it has nothing to do with a "lost companion". It's just how they are. They live life at a VERY different pace than we do. It can take them anywhere from several days to a couple weeks or more to settle into a new home and be confident that it's truly safe and secure.

I would not let the outcome of the first feeding day be "evidence" of whether or not they "miss each other." Give it at least a month....(I'd give it three or four months, myself)....and rule out any other environmental issues as possible cause for not eating....before deciding the separation must be the only cause of lost appetite.

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

to be honest i truely think all animals even reptiles have emotions. Im a huge animal lover and am well aquainted with affection from animals to humans and when i was 16 i had a ball python named russian rioulete. he loved going to school with me, curling at my stomach around bedtime, riding in cars and i sware he gave kisses.

If i asked for a kiss and made the kissy sounds he would touch his nose to my lips. He was a rescue and when i rescued him he had been abandoned in a trash heap, was completely blind and infested with ticks. he was my baby boy and i think he was honestly happy i was his owner and rescuer

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Well, I honestly posted in your thread and forgot about you 10 seconds later, but since you felt the need to NEGATIVE REP me for my post, I feel the need to come back here and refute that... So tell me, what evidence do you have that your snakes are "happy" or that they "bond" or "feel emotion"? Did you press your ear to their HUGE tank and listen when they slithered happily up to the glass and whispered sweet nothings in your ear? Again, YOU are projecting YOUR emotions onto an animal that doesn't have the capacity to feel emotions. Snakes are instinctual animals, meaning they act on INSTINCT, not emotion. They're hungry, so they eat. They need to pee, so they do. They don't stop eating because they're sad or because they miss their friends. They stop eating when their most basic needs aren't being properly met. So, the MORE LIKELY scenario is that your snakes stopped eating because there was something WRONG with their environment, not because they had the sads...

But you go on thinking what you will and I will await your post asking us why your snake is mad at you because when you just wanted a kiss, you got your face bit.

Inknsteel: there was and is no reason for your rudeness. there is really no need for having to refute a negative rep because once again we all have our opinions and in my opinion you did not handle that kindly. I bad rep'd you because of the rudeness you showed me. Everyone else portrayed their opinions in very civil and kind manners. My snakes have since been seperated and seem to be doing ok in tubs side by side which you would have known if you actually read a few post up

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

Inknsteel: there was and is no reason for your rudeness. there is really no need for having to refute a negative rep because once again we all have our opinions and in my opinion you did not handle that kindly. I bad rep'd you because of the rudeness you showed me. Everyone else portrayed their opinions in very civil and kind manners. My snakes have since been seperated and seem to be doing ok in tubs side by side which you would have known if you actually read a few post up

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Seems more likely to me that you were upset in the heat of the moment of the thread and you decided to neg rep me because I didn't agree with your views that your snakes feel emotions or that they're happy or cuddling... I think if you go back and reread my original post with a cool head, you will find there was nothing rude or personally attacking you anywhere in my post. In fact, I find that post to be well worded and educational. Only when I try to help someone and see negative rep because of it do I feel offended or put any "emotion" into my posts, which you should be able to detect from the tone of my last post here. I'm done with your thread at this point, but if you feel the offended or attacked by my first post in any way, I apologize and feel free to bring it up with me in PM if you have a problem with me...

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Originally Posted by LonelyGhost

i know i said i wasnt gonna reply anymore but i decided last night to try the seperate tubs again.

I had to clear off my whole shelf but i managed to get a 50 quart tub for tinkerbell and then i got one of those Reptile Critter Keeper cages for tangerine ( Large is 18" L x 12" W x 7" H)

so now they are sperated in those 2 tubs/containers but of course their cages are side by side so they can see each other like before... we will see how feeding time goes on sunday when they are sheduled to be fed their rat(s)... i hope this works and that they will eat

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Good for you for seperating :D Now you will have happy snakes without the risk of cannibalism. You can of course still take them out together to take cute pictures :P

There is just such a huge size difference to the two you have so it is a bit riskier than housing two same size snakes together.

It's really easy to anthropomorphisize pets. I've caught myself doing it with my cats on a fairly regular basis, actually. When it comes to reptiles, though, their brains are simply not capable of emotions in the same way that ours are. Our brains are more highly evolved and go beyond basic survival instincts.

The "cuddling" and "snuggling" that a lot of people like to attribute to their snakes is misunderstood body language. Believe me, in working for a pet shop I've heard dozens of stories from people commenting on how their snakes "love" one another or particular people because they do this or that. Some of them were so outlandish I had to bite my tongue before responding. In every case, it's been a misunderstanding on the part of the one viewing the situation. Snakes "cuddling" are not doing so in order to get close to their buddy. They're literally throwing their weight around in order to usurp choice hides or basking sites. It doesn't matter how large the enclosure is. There is always bound to be that perfect spot and if there is more than one snake in the enclosure, then both will vie for it once it's been found.

Glad you've separated them. Having individual enclosures is best for so many reasons. Now that they're in separate enclosures, I'd just offer food to them in those enclosures as well (unless you just prefer moving them around in order to feed). Most of the keepers here feed in their snakes' enclosures and there's no reason to believe that doing so promotes aggressive behavior. That's just one of those snippets of bad info from pet shop employees that leads to extra sales. :rolleyes: