two sudden deaths

I had to leave my pets with family to study abroad in Japan, and I just recieved an email today that two of my ball pythons have dropped dead. The third is grumpy and tries to strike through the tub. The only cause I can think of is heat, so I've asked them to move the survivor and check the temperature history. Despite having a herpstat, the room could have heated up, being on the top floor of an old house. But they have central air, and I wouldn't think anywhere in the house with insulation and vents would get over 90 degrees. But I guess I just have to wait to see what the herpstat says. I suppose my wiring on the flexwatt could have been as horrible as it looked... Oh, and I've already asked them to move the survivor off of it.

So what else might have caused this? They weren't eating for winter, but they were by no means the kind of balls that couldn't survive six months without food. Disease is of course possible, but the last introduction into my little collection was six months ago, and that's the survivor. And I doubt my grandmother would have left them with no water for the amount of time it would take for them to die of dehydration.

Ideas and conversation is nice.

Very sorry to hear of your loss! :(

Without actually being there, all any of us can do is just guess. And even when we're there, sometimes all we have is guesses. I find myself wondering if any chemicals were used somewhere near the enclosures? Some kind of pest control, or harsh cleanser or...? I dunno.

Sorry for your loss.

Sorry for your loss. :(

Very unfortunate, my sympathies.

I hope you are safe over in Japan as well, I don't hear much about the recovery anymore....

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Originally Posted by JLC

I find myself wondering if any chemicals were used somewhere near the enclosures? Some kind of pest control, or harsh cleanser or...? I dunno.

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Probably not, but it's worth asking about. Thanks.

I'm sorry for your loss. I've been in a similar situation, and have learned in a very hard way NOT to leave pets (especially reptiles and exotics) in the care of family.
They may have the best intentions, but ultimately they should not be the ones to care for them unless they have specific experience with the same species of their own, and know what to do if and when something goes wrong.

Thank you all for your sympathies. It's been a really hard day for both of us. We're both in Japan, and I've already contacted my mother, who has been taking extraordinary care of our geckos to take the snakes. She's not used to snakes, but she wasn't used to geckos either and she has them both eating and growing rapidly. I feel that with the very DETAILED care sheet Stevepoppers left his family, she'll do fine with them.

I really just don't understand how this happened so very suddenly. I can only think that they were neglected for an extended period of time, or were sick. But again, how would one taking care of an animal who has instructions of what symptoms to look for, not notice? Sorry for the rambling. Just, needed it and so very few people understand how snakes can be such an amazing part of your life. :tears:

It's likely that you'll never truly know what happened unless you have them sent to a vet for necropsy.

Japan is an awesome country. Make the most of it while you're there.

Unfortunately, a necropsy isn't an option. Both animals have been buried. (I already asked to see pictures so I could try to determine what happened, if possible, scale rot, burns, etc). They were apparently also dead for some time before discovered. :mad: How much time, we don't know. I just know that it kills me to think that whatever happened may have been preventable and that they could have been in pain and that they lied there for days, with no one noticing they were gone. :( I just want my babies back. All I asked for when I left was that my animals still be fine when I returned. *sigh*

On a slightly more positive note, my parents are taking in our remaining two snakes this weekend, and quarantining them (away from the geckos, just in case). They will also be taking pictures and skyping so I can look for any symptoms of illness or burns. Even if we never find out what happened to Honey or Cash, I know that Moose and Moe are going to be taken care of to the best of my parent's abilities and that brings me some comfort.

It is had to say anything of value with out more information but if they showed no outward signs of illness I'd look toward poisoning. My thought would be a hurried cleaning with bleach and not washing it out fully. I have seen snakes left with very very poor husbandry and survive ages with out heat or clean conditions so I'd think that is not likely.

I am sorry for you loss and I can just imagine how difficult being so far away and having something like this happen. I hope it is some unfortunate mistake and not a truely nasty disease that will place your remaining animals in harm too.

best of luck. Alex

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

I am sorry for you loss and I can just imagine how difficult being so far away and having something like this happen. I hope it is some unfortunate mistake and not a truely nasty disease that will place your remaining animals in harm too.

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We're taking a disease into consideration and have decided to keep the two remaining snakes in the basement of the house (the geckos are upstairs) and to not go anywhere near the geckos after handling the snakes until clothes are changed and people are showered. Luckily my dad's a former medic and clean freak when it comes to this kind of thing, so I know he'll take the necessary precautions.

I just keep thinking there was something that I could do. Or that I at least could have been there for them.

I am sure that when you left you did not imagine this would happen and you did everything you could to insure they were well cared for. I understand that is small comfort but you did what you could. I am sure that whom ever was looking after them did what they thought was best too. It is sad and unfortunate and you would change it if you could but we can't go back and undo events. You can blame yourself and in your shoes I would too. But at the end of the day you did what you felt was best and that is all we can expect of our selves or anyone else to do the best they can. We can do no more than that.

Grandma says she checked them every day before work. They're not exactly active snakes, nor require lots of interaction, so it's entirely possible I wouldn't have noticed for a while. It's not like I expected them to do anything more than give them water and clean paper.

Oh, and the temps were normal. And the one I said was grumpy was actually the black racer (surprise).

I'm sorry to hear about your loss. Sudden deaths are the hardest, especially without necropsy (and oftentimes even with), because you will probably never know.

A good scheme when you're going through the causes of a clinical "symptom" (and, as weird as it sounds, "sudden death" is a "symptom") is DAMNIT:

D - Degenerative
A - Anatomic
M - Metabolic
N - Nutritional, neoplastic
I - Infectious, iatrogenic, idiopathic (I hate "idiopathic" since it basically just means "we'll never know")
T - Traumatic, toxic

(Note: That's my version of the DAMNIT scheme ... It's a bit more abbreviated than some, because I'm thinking in very broad categories. I've seen numerous different ways of listing it.)

Since you had two animals die suddenly, degenerative and neoplastic causes are unlikely. An anatomic malformation is also unlikely unless they were related, and even then it would be highly coincidental for their disease process to kill them both at the same time.

Since they were snakes and in good body condition, nutritional is unlikely.

That leaves metabolic and traumatic (some environmental factor may have impacted their metabolism or caused internal trauma -- ie, heat stroke), infectious, iatrogenic ("doctor caused," or in this case, keeper caused) or toxic. Iatrogenic is unlikely if nothing was done to them.

Questions I would ask would be: Have you added anything new to your collection recently? What cleaning, antiparasitic or other treatment products has your family used on or in the vicinity of the animals? Are you confident that there was no temp spike, drop or other environmental variable that could be involved?

A friend had a similar situation in which she left some snakes in someone else's care, and when she returned, one of the snakes was dead. When she went to go pick it up, she got a nasty shock -- the heating unit had short-circuited and fried her woma :(

Unfortunately you may never know ... It's awful. :( Good luck with your remaining guys -- I hope whatever happened was an isolated event.

Sorry for the late response, things have been crazy. We still don't know what could have happened. According to the herpstat, there was no heat spike unless it had something to do with the wires sautered to the heat tape. Both remaining snakes have been moved to my parents. Nothing new has been added lately, and we aren't really getting answers as to what cleaning products were used either.

When they got there, the ball python had no substrate and had been moved to a larger tub than we would have put such a young animal in. He was also very skinny. He's eaten two mice since then and seems to be doing well. He's active, eating, shedding well, and has had a BM. There are no signs of burns, respiratory infection or any other illness. He just seems skinny. I've become resigned to the fact that we'll never know what happened to Honey and Cash.

Moe, our black racer, seems fine as well. His humidity was low, but that was fixed within a few days. He's eating and just as angry as ever. >.<

I get home in a month, and hopefully by then Moose will be at a more healthy rate. Perhaps I'll even be able to find a nice adult female for him. We had planned to start a late breeding season once I got home. *sigh* Gonna be hard to do that now.