New here and concerned about feeding/growth

Hello all,

I just signed up for this site but probably should have done do awhile ago. I have two ball pythons, one is a little over 2 years old, and the other will be turning 2 next month. I have a question regarding the feeding patterns/growth of them.

The older ball is a PIGGY. He is constantly hungry. We feed him 1X per week, giving him 3 appropriately sized mice (I swear he would eat more if we offered them). He is now 36" long and a few inches in diameter. He sheds and poops on a regular basis, and behavior seems normal. My concern with this guy is that I am overfeeding. Should I not feed him until he is full? Or go ahead and give him what he wants? (Don't really know it's a "he", we just call it that)

The younger ball is the exact opposite. We'll call it a "she" for now. She will only eat 1-2 times per month, one mouse at a time, (we offer weekly). The first winter we had her, she refused all food for months, regardless of appropriate temp and humidity (we did see her drinking water though). The second winter, she ate a little better, but still MUCH less than in the summer months. Her growth is really stunted as a result of this and I am worried about her. She is around 24" but really skinny. (picture below) We have tried all the feeding tricks to get her to eat more often, but she just doesn't want it. She also poops and sheds less often than our other ball, I assume as a result of less food. I am worried about UNDERfeeding this one.

Conditions in both tanks are the same. Same temps, humidity, hides, etc. Is this just a behavioral difference between the two or have I waited WAY too long to take the smaller one to the vet? Thanks!

ETA: I know she had a rough shed this last time (you can see it on the tail). This is the first time she has had a bad shed and we are going to give her the warm bath and towel to get it off.

http://i.imgur.com/ltB7w.jpg

With your bigger snake, I would try to switch to rats. He should be able to take a small rat, just make sure it's as big or a tad bigger than his thickest part. One prey item is much easier on the digestive system than multiple prey items. That said, he should be fed once every 7 days. Overfeeding also is hard on their digestive system, as is feeding too often. About the smaller one, I would also maybe try to switch her to rats, but with a picky eater, I'd get her to eating on a regular schedule before trying to switch. I'd offer food every 7 days, keep in mind that they are just ending the breeding season, and this could be why she is off food right now. I know a couple of mine have slowed down the last few months, while others never noticed.

Depending on the size of the mice, three may be a bit excessive. Have you tried switching him to rats? If you're having to feed multiple mice you should probably try to switch over to appropriately sized rats.. One rat per week will also likely be cheaper than three mice per week. ;) One feeding per week is fine though, as long as you're feeding the correct size prey.

As for the "female", she may just be a picky eater.. It's a bummer, but it happens. It's not uncommon for them to refuse feed through breeding season (winter months). As long as the temperatures and humidity are up to par, there's not a whole lot you can do other than trying different prey. Try appropriately sized ASFs with her.. some BPs prefer those to mice and rats. Now the stuck shed, your humidity was not as high as it should be, most likely. Once you see them go into shed (cloudy eyes/pink belly) bump up the humidity closer to 70%. All other times it should be between 50-60% and you should have no problem with stuck shed. Keep an eye on her weight and if you can't get her feeding and she keeps losing weight, take her to a knowledgeable exotic vet. Feed refusal and weight loss can be a sign of an unhealthy BP. Also, focus on temperature and be sure whatever you're reading it with is accurate. A cold BP will not eat because they will not be capable of properly digesting their prey.

Welcome to the forum!
I've had a couple pickky eaters in the past.
You could try removing her water bowl and balling up a bunch of news paper in her enclosure. Put about 3 live mice in with her. Check her out in about ten to 15 minutes. I put in a little rodent food for the mice. After about 20 minutes I take out uneaten mice and news paper and put the water bowl back in. Unless the snake is in the process of eating, in this case I give a little more time.

Good luck!

Thanks for the quick replies. As for the humidity, yeah I think her dial broke last week. It was reading 70% though I can only imagine it isn't at that since she had a bad shed. It came off all in one piece except for the tip of the tail which is hanging on. I am going this weekend to buy a new (and better) humidity gauge for her. Our other ball's cage has a much better temp/humidity reader, so I am probably going to go and buy that one as he never has shedding issues.

As for the weight, she hasn't lost, somehow, but hasn't gained either. Our other guy is growing like a weed. She used to be the "big one", and now the size difference is amazing. Hopefully we can get her on a better pattern soon. She has really come out of her shell in the past few months (she is much more shy than the big guy), so I'm hoping better feeding is soon to follow.

I'll check for rats for the big guy. The reason I didn't try them yet is when I went to the reptile show, they said for his size rats were inappropriate and the extra large adult mice were the way to go. We feed him every weekend, and after one "appropriately sized mouse" (according to the keepers there), he is still starving. I feel so bad for the poor thing I give him another, but if that's not safe I'll definitely stop.

And I really need to come up with names and stop calling them "he" and "she" :P. I tried to name the little one Snickers but the hubby was not having it.

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Originally Posted by Jason Bowden

Welcome to the forum!
I've had a couple pickky eaters in the past.
You could try removing her water bowl and balling up a bunch of news paper in her enclosure. Put about 3 live mice in with her. Check her out in about ten to 15 minutes. I put in a little rodent food for the mice. After about 20 minutes I take out uneaten mice and news paper and put the water bowl back in. Unless the snake is in the process of eating, in this case I give a little more time.

Good luck!

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I thought it was unsafe to feed live mice due to risk of injury to the snake? That's what I have been told, maybe that's not true? They have both been on frozen mice since hatching. We have tried the tricks like warming them up and splitting them a bit so they are more obvious, and all of that. We haven't tried live yet though, I'll give it a try if she keeps eating sparsely. For the past few months it has been two mice per month for her.

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Originally Posted by Kymberli

Also, focus on temperature and be sure whatever you're reading it with is accurate. A cold BP will not eat because they will not be capable of properly digesting their prey.

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Temperature in both tanks is 79-82 on the cool side and 90-91 on the hot side. Is this a potential problem?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OtterGoRun

Thanks for the quick replies. As for the humidity, yeah I think her dial broke last week. It was reading 70% though I can only imagine it isn't at that since she had a bad shed. It came off all in one piece except for the tip of the tail which is hanging on. I am going this weekend to buy a new (and better) humidity gauge for her. Our other ball's cage has a much better temp/humidity reader, so I am probably going to go and buy that one as he never has shedding issues.

As for the weight, she hasn't lost, somehow, but hasn't gained either. Our other guy is growing like a weed. She used to be the "big one", and now the size difference is amazing. Hopefully we can get her on a better pattern soon. She has really come out of her shell in the past few months (she is much more shy than the big guy), so I'm hoping better feeding is soon to follow.

I'll check for rats for the big guy. The reason I didn't try them yet is when I went to the reptile show, they said for his size rats were inappropriate and the extra large adult mice were the way to go. We feed him every weekend, and after one "appropriately sized mouse" (according to the keepers there), he is still starving. I feel so bad for the poor thing I give him another, but if that's not safe I'll definitely stop.

And I really need to come up with names and stop calling them "he" and "she" :P. I tried to name the little one Snickers but the hubby was not having it.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by OtterGoRun

I thought it was unsafe to feed live mice due to risk of injury to the snake? That's what I have been told, maybe that's not true? They have both been on frozen mice since hatching. We have tried the tricks like warming them up and splitting them a bit so they are more obvious, and all of that. We haven't tried live yet though, I'll give it a try if she keeps eating sparsely. For the past few months it has been two mice per month for her.

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Are you using dial gauges or digital hygrometers? The dial ones are only good for throwing at the person who sold them to you. :rolleyes: Walmart has Accu-rite thermomter/hygrometers with a probe, so it reads two temperatures and the humidity. About $14, GREAT investment!

If she hasn't lost weight, that could possibly rule out parasites, but not completely. It would be best if you tracked her weight using a scale in grams because she could lose quite a bit of weight before it becomes apparent to the eyes.

As for feeding live, it's perfectly fine as long as the mouse or rat isn't too big and you don't leave it in for too long. There are many threads on here you can search for about feeding live. Many are against it, but for a picky eater live may be the only way to go! When they first come out of the egg they are fed live then sometimes switched to f/t. Think of big breeders with hundreds or thousands of snakes.. do you think they thaw out hundreds or thousands of mice/rats each time they feed? Heck no! They toss in live rodents but take them out if they aren't killed in a certain amount of time. If you're worried, keep an eye on it and if the snake seems scared of it, doesn't kill it, or doesn't pay attention to it go ahead and take it out after about 15mins. If the live rodent was properly fed it will likely not feed on the snake, may take a quick nip at it if the snake doesn't coil around it correctly, but that's a risk you have to take to get her eating regularly. If you're completely uncomfortable feeding live, rodent breeders often offer "pre-killed" rodents, rather than live or frozen. They humanely euthanize it right before you take it home. Fresh killed is better than frozen/thawed to some BPs.


And don't worry about names...I have three who are all nameless. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by OtterGoRun

Temperature in both tanks is 79-82 on the cool side and 90-91 on the hot side. Is this a potential problem?

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Low 80s is fine, the ambient temperature in my tubs are kept at 84-85 at all times with a "hot-spot" belly heat at 92 on the "warm side". I don't think your temperatures are too low.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kymberli

Are you using dial gauges or digital hygrometers? The dial ones are only good for throwing at the person who sold them to you. :rolleyes: Walmart has Accu-rite thermomter/hygrometers with a probe, so it reads two temperatures and the humidity. About $14, GREAT investment!

If she hasn't lost weight, that could possibly rule out parasites, but not completely. It would be best if you tracked her weight using a scale in grams because she could lose quite a bit of weight before it becomes apparent to the eyes.

As for feeding live, it's perfectly fine as long as the mouse or rat isn't too big and you don't leave it in for too long. There are many threads on here you can search for about feeding live. Many are against it, but for a picky eater live may be the only way to go! When they first come out of the egg they are fed live then sometimes switched to f/t. Think of big breeders with hundreds or thousands of snakes.. do you think they thaw out hundreds or thousands of mice/rats each time they feed? Heck no! They toss in live rodents but take them out if they aren't killed in a certain amount of time. If you're worried, keep an eye on it and if the snake seems scared of it, doesn't kill it, or doesn't pay attention to it go ahead and take it out after about 15mins. If the live rodent was properly fed it will likely not feed on the snake, may take a quick nip at it if the snake doesn't coil around it correctly, but that's a risk you have to take to get her eating regularly. If you're completely uncomfortable feeding live, rodent breeders often offer "pre-killed" rodents, rather than live or frozen. They humanely euthanize it right before you take it home. Fresh killed is better than frozen/thawed to some BPs.


And don't worry about names...I have three who are all nameless. :rolleyes:

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Our bigger snake has a digital hygrometer/temp combo thing. The smaller one has digital temps, but the stupid crappy analog hygrometer. I'm going to buy her the same one I have in the other tank (I inherited this second snake, whereas the bigger guy was ours from the start). Both are on thermostats rather than a rheostat to keep the temps appropriate.

I may try the fresh killed first before the live, as I would prefer to keep her on dead prey if possible (our closest supplier is over an hour away and is only there twice a month). Since she still eats, just not as frequently, I just wonder if it really is the prey or something else. When she is hungry she is a quick striker and doesn't waste time. When she is not hungry, she is REALLY not interested.

One other question - both snakes are fed in a separate feeding box since they have loose substrate (I don't want to risk impactions). Should I try laying down a towel and feeding her in her tank instead of the separate feed box?

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Originally Posted by OtterGoRun

Our bigger snake has a digital hygrometer/temp combo thing. The smaller one has digital temps, but the stupid crappy analog hygrometer. I'm going to buy her the same one I have in the other tank (I inherited this second snake, whereas the bigger guy was ours from the start). Both are on thermostats rather than a rheostat to keep the temps appropriate.

I may try the fresh killed first before the live, as I would prefer to keep her on dead prey if possible (our closest supplier is over an hour away and is only there twice a month). Since she still eats, just not as frequently, I just wonder if it really is the prey or something else. When she is hungry she is a quick striker and doesn't waste time. When she is not hungry, she is REALLY not interested.

One other question - both snakes are fed in a separate feeding box since they have loose substrate (I don't want to risk impactions). Should I try laying down a towel and feeding her in her tank instead of the separate feed box?

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Trying pre-killed before live is fine, it's not like you have to get her eating now. My Pinstripe I brought home earlier this week hasn't eaten in ten months and I'm not worried to take my time getting him back on feed since he's not deathly skinny like my other two were when I "rescued" them. Are you positive there aren't any other rodent suppliers closer to your home? Sure would make your life easier, lol. Fresh killed is your best bet as a next step, then if that doesn't work try live. If you can get her eating live regulary you may have success switching her back to pre-killed or f/t eventually. The main concern is getting her to eat regularly, kick-start her feeding response and get her on a schedule.

You're right though, the analog hygrometers are crap. They don't read near the actual percentage. My first normal came in a small tank with an analog gauge that read about 30% off of the actualy percentage. :rolleyes:

As for the substrate, if you're worried about impaction, switch to newspapers or paper towels and feed them in their enclosures. I prefer using paper towels because you can see any possible mites crawling on them and they're easy to clean, just dump them an put down new ones. You might actually get a better feeding response from her if you feed her in her enclosure where she is most comfortable. If you really want to keep whatever substrate you're using, I suppose you can take out the water bowl and lay down paper towels during feeding, but I'd imagine that'd be too much of a hassle in my opinion. I prefer being able to shut the tub and leave them alone after they strike with no worries of impaction, then I replace their water bowls once they've finished.

The only closer supplier would be when the annual reptile show comes around. I thought about ordering from an online supplier, but I just cannot justify that shipping cost :O

As for substrate, it seems like there are tons of varying opinions on it. We did some research before picking one, and ended up with this because of its theoretical advantages of being able to spot clean, and holding temp/humidity better. I have heard of some people using astroturf as well? Basically having two sheets and switching them out while the other is being cleaned.

As for the separate feeding enclosure, again it seemed that opinions varied on this. When we asked the various breeders, it seemed like a pretty even 50/50 split. The one half says feed them in the tank where they are most comfortable, the other half says NEVER feed them in the tank or they will start biting you when you go to just handle them... I swear it is so confusing!

Obviously I am newer to the whole reptile keeping thing. I have a lot of experience with birds and primates (primates at the zoo, NOT in my home just in case you were starting to wonder about my sanity:P), so I am still learning as I go.

Yeah, the shipping costs for frozen feeders is insane. I could only justify paying that if I had a huge amount of snakes, which even then I'd be breeding my own.

There are many opinions/options for proper substrate. Paper towels are a universally accepted option but obviously wouldn't hold humidity more than some substrate would, but since I use tubs I have no issues with holding proper humidity. Astro turf, carpet or the reptile "carpet" sold at pet stores is a horrible option. I can't imagine it would be easy to keep clean, you'd constantly be cleaning it and replacing it.. just not an option for me, lol.

And for feeding in the enclosure..there is quite a bit a controversy with either method and quite a few threads on here regarding which is best. It seems on here when asked by pro-breeders they say feeding in the enclosure is perfectly fine. If you look up SnakeBytes TV on youtube there is a big-time breeder who does "episodes" giving advice and what not, they did an episode on feeding in separate enclosure or in same living enclosure and decided either way is fine. If a snake is going to strike when you reach into their enclosure, it has nothing to do with where it is fed unless your hand smells like a rodent. :P I feed mine in their tubs and they do not strike at me when I pick them up on any occasion. I'd recommend trying to feed your female in her enclosure.

Thanks again for your help. I'll keep feeding the big boy in the separate tank (as it seems to be working with him), and I'll try feeding the smaller one in her own enclosure. I got bit once by our big boy on accident around a year ago. He struck at the mouse and missed it and got me instead (oops). Now I never neglect to use the feeding tongs :D

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Originally Posted by OtterGoRun

Thanks again for your help. I'll keep feeding the big boy in the separate tank (as it seems to be working with him), and I'll try feeding the smaller one in her own enclosure. I got bit once by our big boy on accident around a year ago. He struck at the mouse and missed it and got me instead (oops). Now I never neglect to use the feeding tongs :D

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I almost had that happen to me once. My genius self decided not to grab the tongs one night and it must be difficult for them to differentiate between heat sources ..struck too close for comfort so I use tongs every time now. :)

You're welcome! Glad I could help.

Yes, I suggest feeding her in her tub/tank. That could be the reason she doesn't want to eat, it can be very stressful.