mother lost an egg

I have 2 pythons- a male and female. The Female just laid eggs a few days ago. Everything seemed ok but today I noticed that for some reason when the male curled up with the female it caused one of the eggs to get moved away from them so that the egg is sitting by itself outside of the Female's coiled up body which is surrounding all the other eggs.

What should I do about this? Should I try to move the egg back in with the others or does this mean something is wrong with that egg? If i touch the egg will that cause the snakes to think its "tainted" somehow like I've heard happens with bird eggs?

Thanks in advance for any help.

I guess my first question would be, if she already laid eggs, how come the male is still in with her?

ditto to the previous post, but no, its not like a bird where touching it will cause her to 'reject' the egg.

and are you prepared for a maternal incubation like it sounds like you are doing? If you've still got the male in there with her, then you may need to be doing some more research or find an incubator.

Umm WTH is the male still doing with the female.

Cant properly house, why are you breeding. :colbert:

The male shouldn't be sharing the enclosure. He's finished his job and the mom will be much more relaxed without him in her space.

If you're going to all the mom to brood the eggs, double check your humidity levels and temps. Low humidity can mean death for eggs. You want it to be no less than say 65%. I prefer sticking in the 70-80% range for brooding moms. Egg boxes in artificially incubators, on the other hand, need to be kept as close to 100% as possible throughout incubation.

As for the roll out, just place it back in the pile with the others. The mother isn't going to reject it if it's a healthy egg. A word of caution, though.. Brooding moms generally don't like hands messing with their nests and a bite is certainly a possibility.


BTW - that bird egg/baby rejection thing is a myth.. if you find a baby bird has fallen from its nest, you can safely return it to the nest and its parents will be none the wiser. Their sense of smell is very poor and unless they actually see you meddling with their nest and feel it's unsafe, they aren't going to abandon it or any of the eggs/hatchlings in it. ;)

With maternal incubation, if the humidity is not very high, closer to 80% or more, and the ambient temperature at least 85 degrees, you will lose all the eggs. They can not properly incubate in their enclosure without greatly tweaking the stats.

BPs should never be housed together. Period. Once the male has bred the female they are to be separated.

After the first day, if an egg rolls or gets tipped, the baby will most likely die. They are not like chicken eggs. They need to stay upright once they are On the ground.

Oi.

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

With maternal incubation, if the humidity is not very high, closer to 80% or more, and the ambient temperature at least 85 degrees, you will lose all the eggs. They can not properly incubate in their enclosure without greatly tweaking the stats.

BPs should never be housed together. Period. Once the male has bred the female they are to be separated.

After the first day, if an egg rolls or gets tipped, the baby will most likely die. They are not like chicken eggs. They need to stay upright once they are On the ground.

Oi.

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You shouldn't have to greatly tweak stats if you're already maintaining a habitat that closely simulates what they'd be living in if they were in some African termite mound. If the enclosure is conducive to healthy behavior and intact sheds then it's likely going to be conducive to brooding as well.

Egg rolling isn't an automatic death sentence, either. I know others here on the board have experimented with this to see what effect it had on the eggs to turn them at various points during incubation. The result was that every egg hatched. No problems. I had an egg that rolled out multiple times last year because it just wasn't adhering to the rest of the eggs in the pile and it still hatched without issue.

Not trying to tear down your comment here but if it can spare others the anxiety of finding a roll out and fearing the worst, it's important info to share. I know I was pulling my hair out when I found my roll out the first time and trying to figure out which end was "up". In the end, it really didn't matter. Eggs are incredibly resilient and they are capable of "self-correction" in the event of being rolled or turned during incubation. It's forceful trauma like falling that can mean sudden death for eggs.

If the female laid a few days ago and just now had a roll out, most likely due to the male being there, it would have less of a chance of surviving if it wasn't placed back immediately and the right side up.

BPs fight. We all know that. Being stressed about another snake getting close to her eggs could easily cause her to jerk and possibly damage or lose eggs. Possibly even get so annoyed that she abandons them.

I'm sorry but I can't assume that the husbandry is spot on and appropriate for maternal Incubation if the OP was not aware that they should not be kept together. Hence my post about tweaking the heat and humidity.

Maybe the OP can clear it up and tell us what the enclosure consists of. Their methods of heating and keeping humidity high etc.. All being controlled by a thermostat, thermometer, and hygrometer.. If the conditions are right for maternal incubation (similar to the very warm and humid environment of a termite mound) then I will retract my previous statement.

When we incubate our eggs, we set the incubator to 88-90 degrees with up to 100% humidity (in the case of substrateless method). Knowing that a BP can not produce any heat to artificially warm the eggs, and that they are only capable of loosening coils to let them cool down if they are too hot, then the average tank style enclosure that most people start out with would be inappropriate without some tweaking. Especially if the owner did not do research on the proper husbandry for BPs. Not pet store husbandry either.

Honestly with only 1 post. This sounds like someone that should not be breeding.

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Originally Posted by Foschi Exotic Serpents

If the female laid a few days ago and just now had a roll out, most likely due to the male being there, it would have less of a chance of surviving if it wasn't placed back immediately and the right side up.

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If not placed back it would likely not survive, but the roll itself wouldn't be the cause of death and not being placed back in the exact position laid isn't an issue.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...Egg-Experiment

^ This is one of the experiments I mentioned earlier.

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Originally Posted by RichsBallPythons

Umm WTH is the male still doing with the female.

Cant properly house, why are you breeding. :colbert:

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+1
I agree 100%.

If you can't afford another tank, take $30...but a locking sterilite container for $10, slap a heat pad on it and hook it up to the thermostat you should already have and GET THE MALE OUT OF THERE.

Or buy/build a rack.

Thanks for the help. I should have clarified that I'm not a snake breeder I'm just a snake owner whose snakes have now mated after 8 years of living together. I didn't even plan on owning two pythons but I took in the female as a rescue from a very bad situation.

The two pythons live in a very large custom built enclosure that is 8'x4' and is split into two areas 4'x4' each. one area is 4' tall and has a hanging basket and other "toys" and the other area is 2' tall and is a "bedroom" type area with an aquarium on its side and a nice box and heating elements.

I don't think the female is bothered by the male since they've lived together for so long. Watching them together I can't see that he is pestering her.

My main concern is just for the stray egg which I would like to save if possible. I tried setting it on top of the other eggs but it rolled off at some point last night. However, its looks like its in a better spot now so that when she goes to get water next time she might gather it back in with the others as she coils back up.

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Originally Posted by parisjackson

Thanks for the help. I should have clarified that I'm not a snake breeder I'm just a snake owner whose snakes have now mated after 8 years of living together. I didn't even plan on owning two pythons but I took in the female as a rescue from a very bad situation.

The two pythons live in a very large custom built enclosure that is 8'x4' and is split into two areas 4'x4' each. one area is 4' tall and has a hanging basket and other "toys" and the other area is 2' tall and is a "bedroom" type area with an aquarium on its side and a nice box and heating elements.

I don't think the female is bothered by the male since they've lived together for so long. Watching them together I can't see that he is pestering her.

My main concern is just for the stray egg which I would like to save if possible. I tried setting it on top of the other eggs but it rolled off at some point last night. However, its looks like its in a better spot now so that when she goes to get water next time she might gather it back in with the others as she coils back up.

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Sounds like an interesting set up you have. How are you heating it? What is the humidity in there? Do you have any pics?

Snakes aren't social animals. Regardless of how long they've been co-habitated, it would be in their best interest to keep them separated - each with its own basking site, hides, and water dish.

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Originally Posted by parisjackson

Thanks for the help. I should have clarified that I'm not a snake breeder I'm just a snake owner whose snakes have now mated after 8 years of living together. I didn't even plan on owning two pythons but I took in the female as a rescue from a very bad situation.

The two pythons live in a very large custom built enclosure that is 8'x4' and is split into two areas 4'x4' each. one area is 4' tall and has a hanging basket and other "toys" and the other area is 2' tall and is a "bedroom" type area with an aquarium on its side and a nice box and heating elements.

I don't think the female is bothered by the male since they've lived together for so long. Watching them together I can't see that he is pestering her.

My main concern is just for the stray egg which I would like to save if possible. I tried setting it on top of the other eggs but it rolled off at some point last night. However, its looks like its in a better spot now so that when she goes to get water next time she might gather it back in with the others as she coils back up.

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Since this was unplanned and you were not ready for this nor were you ready to own 2 BP according to your own words, and since your husbandry seems far from optimal from optimal for the 2 you already own, my suggestion would be to freeze all the eggs and than dispose if them.

You are not ready to accommodate more BP, get them started etc so the best thing would be not to hatch them to start with.

I know it's my not be the answer you want but that is my opinion.

Of course you can't tell that he's pestering you. Snakes cannot whine and make noise to display their discomfort. They cannot show facial expressions. And being in an enclosure there is only so far they can go to get away from each other. And any good spots (hides, warm areas, water bowls, etc) they have to fight over, which some people assume is "cuddling" or "affection". Snakes in general are not social and should not be housed together for any reason other that purposeful breeding. And even then, housing them together 24/7 is not the proper way to breed them.

Either set up the male in his own enclosure or find a home for one of them. As for the eggs, as mentioned above, if you cannot properly house two snakes, what makes you think you can house and care for the babies. They MOST CERTAINLY CANNOT live with the parents. Do you have enclosures ready for them when they hatch?

And the enclosure you do have for them sounds like it is not the kind of set up you want for a ball python. What is with the hanging basket? Ball pythons do not LIKE to climb and being suspended in the air like that would be stressful. They like solid ground under them. I would remove that at once! Pictures of this enclosure would help us help you.

We are not trying to be rude or mean. We are just trying to help you and your pythons. This site is full of people who are very passionate about their animals and have been working with them for years. We know what we are talking about. It would be wise of you to listen to our advice.

I know you guys are knowledgeable thats why I posted my original question - what should I do with the egg that fell away from the others. I don't need help with my enclosure or with my hanging basket. I just need to know what to do with the egg. Anything else can be fixed after the egg emergency is fixed.

And they told you what to do with it. Put it back! Unfortunately, it has not adhered to the other eggs, so as long as the male is in there to bother the female, it runs the risk of rolling away from the others again. The male has no instinct to protect or care for the eggs and has no business being in that cage. He could damage the eggs by slithering over them, knocking eggs loose from the nest, and stressing the mother out.

Hatch the eggs out if you want to, but with a set up like that and the male being housed with mother and eggs, you don't stand a good chance of them hatching. Now, we have answered your question about what to do with the egg. So go in there, put it back in the nest, come back to the computer, read the advice given by people who have years of experience and start fixing your other problems with the first being the male being in that cage.

By the way, that should have read pestering HER, not you.

I agree with the bunny.

But, you really need to get them separated asap, and keep them that way. The mom is going to need a long time to get healthy again, and if they keep breeding you are putting the female in danger.

What did you think would happen keeping a male and female together? Are you prepared for a lot of babies? They all need to be kept separate from each other as well. They need to establish a good eating habit, and to keep them from breeding in the future. That's a lot of space to be ready for in only 55 days.

Have you candled any of them to see if they are even fertile?

But you do need help with the enclosure because it is way WAY too big. I'm surprised they eat for you since ball pythons prefer small enclosures. I don't think those eggs will hatch at all. There is no way that cage is being heated properly and it's probably so dry that the eggs will look like raisins in a short time.

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Originally Posted by parisjackson

I know you guys are knowledgeable thats why I posted my original question - what should I do with the egg that fell away from the others. I don't need help with my enclosure or with my hanging basket. I just need to know what to do with the egg. Anything else can be fixed after the egg emergency is fixed.

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Paris, this is my suggestion:

If you are sure you can take care of the babies, then try my suggestions below. If not, then it's better to just discard the eggs.

* Check your humidity and temperature where the eggs are to be as close to this as possible: 70-80% humidity, 88-90 degrees Fahrenheit.

If it is, then candle the egg that rolled out (put a flashlight against the egg shell and see if you can find veins - better to do this in a dark room). If you see veins, then put the egg back with the pile. Try to place it so that it sits snug in there. If you don't see veins, you can discard that egg.

If the conditions are not close to the humidity/temp above, then I suggest doing either of the following:

1.) Build an emergency incubator and move the eggs there (there's a styrofoam cooler incubator instructions for super cheap on the DIY forum).

2.) Move the eggs and mother into a more controlled environment - I suggest getting a Sterilite container like this. Put it on a heat pad that is run through a thermostat. Line it with 3 layers of newspaper and put a water bowl in it. Adjust the temperature so it's at 88-90F, humidity should be between 70-80%. Put mom and eggs in there and leave daddy in the big enclosure.

In either case... daddy and mommy should get a divorce ASAP.

Good luck!

ok, I have a nice sized feeding tank that I can convert into a home for the mom for the duration of the pregnancy. I'm not planning on keeping the babies but will give them to the store where i get my feeders from if they hatch. I haven't candled the eggs but I wouldn't really know what to look for anyway.

Any tips on moving the mother and eggs?

Id suggest keeping one or the other in that tank for a permanent situation. You really don't have the knowledge or skills to keep two balls together. It takes a TON more than a big cage. Especially after egg laying girls need to resume eating again. And with the stress of the male and eggs I doubt that is going to happen. Everyone has given excellent advice and im happy that we were all calm doing it. We tend to get excitable when discussions like this come up. I know I have strong feelings when it comes to situations like this. Anyways I suggest you use the great advice given and make the best life for your balls. Keeping them together the way you are I dont consider that to be a good life and I hope you change it. These animals shouldn't have to compete with a cage mate or be stressed daily to breed.

From what i see, the easiest is u may remove the male to your new nice seize tank and just leave your female to incubate its eggs in her huge enclosure. But bear in mind on humidity.

If you would still prefer the female to be remove to another tank, unwrap the female from the eggs carefully, place those eggs in the new enclosure and put the female inside, it might know how to go back to her own eggs. Check on humidity as well. (I wouldn't recommend this method)

Or another easiest way is to set up a simple incubator with a ratio of 1kg vermiculite and 1kg of water in a toyogo box.

Something like that,

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_K2-CofcI_U...0/DSC_6639.JPG

Safe, easy, accurate. Maintain it in a room temperature of 28 to 31 degrees

cheers

Do you have the ability to post pictures of this "situation"?

Is the egg even fertile? Maybe she kicked it because it was a bad egg...

Why not just move the male...?

I would candle them. There is no use in her holding on to a bad clutch. She will not eat, or settle down until the eggs hatch. It's very stressful on them.

All you have to do is hold a flashlight up against them in a dark room. If you see veins (just like blood veins), they are fertile. The ones that aren't can be pitched. In this situation, there might not be any fertile ones, and you don't have to worry about them. Then we can work on the husbandry issues, and get them into a better environment.

If there are fertile eggs, you can watch them to see if they are ok. If the veins start to shrink, or fade, the egg is dieing. This is info you need to watch. If one dies, we can help you make changes for the rest of the clutch.

I would also recommend moving the male instead of moving the female. She has her nest and she is as comfortable as she can be in this situation. Moving her and the eggs is just more stress. Get yourself a flashlight and if you need to, put a piece of cardboard (or a book, or whatever will shield you from a bite) and place the flashlight's lit end directly on the surface of the egg. GENTLY of course. If the egg has a yellow or orange color to it and you don't see veins running through it, it is infertile. You can put it back with the mom if you wish, but it likely will not hatch. If it has a pink color to it, and you can clearly see veins, it is still good and you should definitely put it back with the mother.

The only thing about letting the babies hatch is that you will want to house them long enough to let them shed and at least have a meal before they leave you. Not to knock a pet store you frequent, but many people on here have not had very good experiences with the husbandry pet stores provide to their reptiles. The chances of newly hatched ball python babies surviving at a pet store are not very good. Make arrangements to house them if you decide to let them hatch.

A brooding mom will eat while on her clutch, but from the sound of it you remove your snakes in order to feed them in a separate enclosure..? Once you have these snakes in individual enclosures, they can be fed in their enclosure. It's easier for the snakes (and the keeper) to feed snakes in their enclosures. In the case of your female, you'd want to offer a smaller than usual meal. My snakes usually eat medium sized rats so a brooding female here if offered rat pups or small sized rats on a weekly basis.

I was going off the post that said
" Move the eggs and mother into a more controlled environment - I suggest getting a Sterilite container like this. Put it on a heat pad that is run through a thermostat. Line it with 3 layers of newspaper and put a water bowl in it. Adjust the temperature so it's at 88-90F, humidity should be between 70-80%. Put mom and eggs in there and leave daddy in the big enclosure."

That seemed reasonable since it could be hard to keep the big one as humid as needed.

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Originally Posted by Quiet Tempest

A brooding mom will eat while on her clutch, but from the sound of it you remove your snakes in order to feed them in a separate enclosure..? Once you have these snakes in individual enclosures, they can be fed in their enclosure. It's easier for the snakes (and the keeper) to feed snakes in their enclosures. In the case of your female, you'd want to offer a smaller than usual meal. My snakes usually eat medium sized rats so a brooding female here if offered rat pups or small sized rats on a weekly basis.

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Really? I thought that's why we had to bathe them. They wouldn't eat if they could still smell thier eggs. Still learning about maternal incubation. :oops:

Paris, I would message this woman. She has more knowledge on maternal incubation than anyone here. She could also give you pointers on heat and humidity. It's easier to do it with an incubator, but with the right teacher not too difficult.

Good luck with them.

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

Really? I thought that's why we had to bathe them. They wouldn't eat if they could still smell thier eggs. Still learning about maternal incubation. :oops:

Paris, I would message this woman. She has more knowledge on maternal incubation than anyone here. She could also give you pointers on heat and humidity. It's easier to do it with an incubator, but with the right teacher not too difficult.

Good luck with them.

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If you're maternally incubating there's no need to bathe them. I suppose if you're artificially incubating that bathing would be wise, though, because she'd probably focus on finding her missing eggs rather than eating.

Oh, and thanks for the praise but I'm still learning as I go, too. ;)

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Originally Posted by parisjackson

I was going off the post that said
" Move the eggs and mother into a more controlled environment - I suggest getting a Sterilite container like this. Put it on a heat pad that is run through a thermostat. Line it with 3 layers of newspaper and put a water bowl in it. Adjust the temperature so it's at 88-90F, humidity should be between 70-80%. Put mom and eggs in there and leave daddy in the big enclosure."

That seemed reasonable since it could be hard to keep the big one as humid as needed.

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Paris, this is what I did with mine. So, I know it works. My snakes are in glass tanks (like aquarium tanks but designed for reptiles). I keep the glass tanks environment fairly stable by constant maintenance. I can't do that with the mother trying to bite me everytime I open the tank. So, I moved the mother and eggs to a sterilite tub. It took me a day to stabilize the tub, then my husband uncoiled the mother from the eggs, I moved the eggs to the tub, then my husband plopped the mother on top of the eggs.

I fed her every 10 days while she's brooding on the eggs. The first few times we uncoiled her and put her in her feeding tank (this is how we feed all our snakes because we feed live rats - and live rats in a fully decorated glass tank is a disaster). She ate without a problem. After a while my husband got tired of getting struck at so he would just put the rat on the end of the tub farthest from the mother/eggs. The mother smells the rat, uncoils half her body off the eggs and strikes/coils the rat, eats it, then settles back down on the eggs. Really cool to watch this acrobatics!

So, any updates? Did you separate them?

No possibilty pictures??? :confused: