I am freaked out right now :C (slight graphic)

Ok... so I had an entire tub of momma rat and (I believe) four week old litter die. For presumably no reason.

Here's what I found when I went to check their water this morning:

http://i53.tinypic.com/21cd0fc.jpg

Here's another, I only have my cellphone right now, terrible image quality..

http://i52.tinypic.com/29206lc.jpg

Here's the situation:

I have smaller nursing tubs for nursing mommas and large breeding tubs where there is either 1.1 or 1.2 rats at all times. I have two breeding tubs and 5~ nursing tubs, as well as a grow-out/larger cage for mommas with large litters.

They are all in my large downstairs room, which is cross ventilated by my basement (when that door is open) and windows/slider to the outdoors. these are only open when it is warm, which it has been, but last night we had a sudden and unexpected cold snap which dropped that room to 55-60~ degrees because a window was accidentally left open. (it's warmer now, I have a heater running the second I woke up and realized how chilly it was)

I feed Mazuri breeder 6F food and give them all tap water, which is changed daily for mommas and every 2-3 days for the breeder tubs. I give them food every day to make sure they always have some and treats at least every two (granola, yogurt covered raisins, yogurt treats). They're bedding is a mix of pine pellets (equine pine, I believe. It's kiln-dried pine (which kills the oils) used commonly for horse bedding) and carefresh. The tub that passed was entirely on carefresh.

ALL of my rats get the same treatment. Same food, same everything.

This tub was underneath another tub (I stack momma tubs in 2's) and the tub above was perfectly fine. They seemed a little freaked, but were totally okay. It got cold, but everyone felt as if they were still warm enough to be alright.

The ONLY thing different that happened to the tub that passed was yesterday morning I found out that a handful of the babies had chewed out of their zips and escaped. My first chew-out and escape. The room they are in is mostly empty, and they is NO poisons or anything they could have gotten into. I scoured the room for any sign on ANYTHING and I couldn't find a thing..

I do not believe it was rat poison, because it makes rats so thirsty they essentially die from over-drinking... but their water bottle was fully functioning and 2/3 full. Only half of the babies had gotten out, and were all accounted for and put back in, so if say only half had died it might have made sense, but ALL of them were dead.

They look like just fell asleep and didn't wake up... :C

All my other rats are okay, so I don't think it was airborne (pleasepleasepleaseno) and I have NO IDEA what it was! I am freaked out and scared for my other ratties, and so upset because the momma that passed was one of my best moms and the sweetest girl..

Could it have been the cold? The escape?? I have no idea..

Well if the ones that escaped and you put them back in that tub, its goes to say they brought something back and shared to to the rest.

If no other tubs were affected but just the one, theres your answer.

One reason why when anything escapes from my racks and makes it to the floor/carpet they get gased and tossed out.

But what could they have gotten into that spread that immediately and totally to all of them? :/

What ever they found on the floor that they ate and brought back.

Yeah if they had escaped....they should have been written off as a loss.

Lesson learned

I'm very sorry you lost them :(

Ok.. I understand that it must have been the escape, but what I don't understand is what they might have brought back?

The room they are in is unused and empty. There are a couple of things down there and nothing was chewed or anything, and the room was completely cleaned and emptied.

I'm trying to figure it out more than just 'they escaped, they died' because I can't imagine something that could be brought back to kill all of them in less than 24 hours. If it was food, what could it have been? What could kill all of those rats?

I've been running through lists of possibilities, and I've dealt with various animal deaths of every variety.. this one caught me off guard. :/ lesson learned, but the lesson still hasn't explained the 'why'

Options are:

food
poison
chemical
picked up disease?
feces (I had a cat down there, which is the reason why everything was so hardcore cleaned once the cat left)
so, maybe litter?

To be quite honest, it looks like they were making a pile because they were cold. How cold did it get? If they were the bottom tub touching say, concrete, they could have frozen to death.

I don't see it being poison. The ones that are the poison would have died, there is no evidence that the others consumed the sick ones (which would be the only cause of it killing the entire tub). And unless starving, they wouldn't have eaten the feces of the poisoned rats.

Chemical? Maybe. What sort of chemicals do you use in the room? Again, since they were the bottom tub, the chemicals could kill them and not the top tub.

Cat litter/feces MIGHT have killed the ones that escaped, but would not hurt the others. I've also never had a problem with rats consuming cat litter. We have a male that free ranges sometimes and the most he does is use the cat litter to defecate in.

What kind of bedding are you using for the rats? It looks liked carefresh which I don't like using carefresh. It's bad for their respiratory (especially babies) and holds bacteria. It wouldn't have killed them all like that though.

They appear to be a little thin, which could be from dehydration. Are you positive the water bottle was working for them? Just because you can get water out of it, doesn't mean they can.

IMO, going off of the way the entire tub was found dead and the way they are laying, I'm calling dehydration or temperature related death. The only one that makes me think it might be a chemical is the baby at the front reaching for the mesh.

I will say that I don't think it's a disease. I would sterilize your room entire room and all enclosures, but I don't think it's a disease. I also wouldn't use that tub for a while, sterilized or not.

I'm so sorry for your loss though. I hate to see things like this. Such a complete waste. :(

The rats had plenty of water. It had been was filled twelve hours prior. They were on carpet and the temps might have dipped down into the mid-to-high fifties.

When I kept rats outside I had a heater malfunction and had rats live through a 35 degree night with zero loss, I doubt cold could have been the culprit.

It sounds like a poisoning, the ones that got out got into something, got caught and put back in the tubs and then puked up the poison that was then eaten by the rest, all dead.(hypothesis)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by snakesRkewl

When I kept rats outside I had a heater malfunction and had rats live through a 35 degree night with zero loss, I doubt cold could have been the culprit.

It sounds like a poisoning, the ones that got out got into something, got caught and put back in the tubs and then puked up the poison that was then eaten by the rest, all dead.(hypothesis)

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Rats cant regurgitate which is why they take small bites of new foods for caution. I think what ever it was, was stored in the mouth and spit out to re eat and others too bits of it as well

Hmmm.. if they had nabbed something then brought it back.. that's the only thing I could see being plausible. They were four weeks old and only about half of the babies escaped, so I wasn't aware they'd be able to do such a thing.. especially at that age. But! Who knows?

It's turned into more of a murder mystery for me now, grrr. >:C When something doesn't have a semi-clear explanation it tickles my brain and drives me nuts.

I don't think it was the cold, so had to be:

1) Something they ate/brought back for others
2) Dehydration?

There water was filled that morning (after the escape) and they passed in less than 24 hours. I wasn't aware if rats were that susceptible to dehydration or not. Blehhh! But as far as eating... what the HECK is in that room that would have wiped them all out so perfectly?

As far as chemicals go, none were found nor any traces.. but what the heck, maybe some aliens came down and gassed 'em, or a stray bolt of lightning escaped through the window.

It looks like what happened to my first attempt at breeding rats. Someone else around here that breeds them said that it could be over crowding. But I wouldn't think that all of them would die at the same time.

I went to bed and all of them were fine, I woke up in the morning and all of them were dead and stiff. All croaked at the same time. None of them had gotten out, and all of them were about the same age.

It's a sucky loss 'cause rats can be expensive. Let us know if you figure it out! Now I'm curious.

I'm going to ask around and talk to a vet I volunteer for. :/ She specializes in birds, but she might have some idea. If I find anything out I'll definitely post it here and conclude this whole mess.

I'm super happy that all my other rats are fine right now. <3 Hopefully it stays that way! I'm building racks to get 'em out out of the sterilites, I don't want another chew out.

As far as bringing back a poison, I'd be curious if there was anything that could have gotten on their fur, rather than being ingested immediately, or carried back (rats are greedy, I doubt they would have brought some back to the group, they may have tried to stash something in a new spot they found)... but they could have walked or climbed through something that was then groomed off.

Let us know if you find anything out.

Could you possibly have transferred a foreign substance in their water supply? Did you fill the others in the same manner? Just trying to help weed possibilities out. I also agree with Anstopism. It could have been something from indirect contact that they groomed off. I know here at my place I have the Terminix spray several times a year inside and out for insects. Neither my rodents or snakes ever touch the ground. I'm afraid it might cause problems with my pythons. Again just a thought.

I think your best bet is to take one of 2 of their little bodies for an autopsy... I have no idea how much Vet's charge but if it's really something you want to find out, it's the best way. I don't have rats and never have kept any but this is what I would do. Personally I think they brought back some sort of disease with them from somewhere... Hope the mystery gets solved and good luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Misfit

Ok... so I had an entire tub of momma rat and (I believe) four week old litter die. For presumably no reason.

Here's what I found when I went to check their water this morning:

http://i53.tinypic.com/21cd0fc.jpg

Here's another, I only have my cellphone right now, terrible image quality..

http://i52.tinypic.com/29206lc.jpg

Here's the situation:

I have smaller nursing tubs for nursing mommas and large breeding tubs where there is either 1.1 or 1.2 rats at all times. I have two breeding tubs and 5~ nursing tubs, as well as a grow-out/larger cage for mommas with large litters.

They are all in my large downstairs room, which is cross ventilated by my basement (when that door is open) and windows/slider to the outdoors. these are only open when it is warm, which it has been, but last night we had a sudden and unexpected cold snap which dropped that room to 55-60~ degrees because a window was accidentally left open. (it's warmer now, I have a heater running the second I woke up and realized how chilly it was)

I feed Mazuri breeder 6F food and give them all tap water, which is changed daily for mommas and every 2-3 days for the breeder tubs. I give them food every day to make sure they always have some and treats at least every two (granola, yogurt covered raisins, yogurt treats). They're bedding is a mix of pine pellets (equine pine, I believe. It's kiln-dried pine (which kills the oils) used commonly for horse bedding) and carefresh. The tub that passed was entirely on carefresh.

ALL of my rats get the same treatment. Same food, same everything.

This tub was underneath another tub (I stack momma tubs in 2's) and the tub above was perfectly fine. They seemed a little freaked, but were totally okay. It got cold, but everyone felt as if they were still warm enough to be alright.

The ONLY thing different that happened to the tub that passed was yesterday morning I found out that a handful of the babies had chewed out of their zips and escaped. My first chew-out and escape. The room they are in is mostly empty, and they is NO poisons or anything they could have gotten into. I scoured the room for any sign on ANYTHING and I couldn't find a thing..

I do not believe it was rat poison, because it makes rats so thirsty they essentially die from over-drinking... but their water bottle was fully functioning and 2/3 full. Only half of the babies had gotten out, and were all accounted for and put back in, so if say only half had died it might have made sense, but ALL of them were dead.

They look like just fell asleep and didn't wake up... :C

All my other rats are okay, so I don't think it was airborne (pleasepleasepleaseno) and I have NO IDEA what it was! I am freaked out and scared for my other ratties, and so upset because the momma that passed was one of my best moms and the sweetest girl..

Could it have been the cold? The escape?? I have no idea..

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im no expert but maybe momma got out too but went back by time you checked on them and found them loose.if she was still feeding she must of had eatin or licked/drank something even residue and the babbies milk was poison.the way the one baby rat thats alone in your pic is sprawled out looks to me as poison bucause if it was anything else it would of just layed and died.but the way the baby looks is as he/she was walking and just died.they do that when poisoned.i breed rats/mice since i was a kid.i use to supply a pet shop i lived behind mice in n.y so i seen alot especialy when i didnt clean tanks out in timely manner.i also had plenty get out such as moms and found whole litters dead due to mom geting out and eating who knows what and me catching her and putting her back.best thing to do is get some of that orange citrus cleaning stuff and just wipe down anything that might still have residue from toxic chemicals used from past cleaning.oh and change the zip ties too a wire tie so they dont chew it again.and if the excape then they are better kept away from the others for awhile to see if they get sick but its best just to write them off.sounds mean but what if it was all your rats.hope i help some what to figure out what happen.i would double check your water just in case.sorry for your loss trust me been there.

Being a bottom tub with no actual covers on the sides other than your screen im thinking its a heavy type gas like the CO2 used for euthenizing rats...not saying its CO2 but something similar that could have been in that room or seeping in from the outside. I used to work in the film industry and we had chemicals that just the fumes were so heavy that theyd be detected on the floors so we had to have good ventilation to avoid any form of intaking these fumes and killing us. As for cold well ive had my rats in a shed outside with heater running but i had a malfunction this past year and the heater stopped and it was 17 below and all my rats survived so i doubt that was your cod. When i did have escapees and were eventually found, i have to think where they went and what they got into so i off them immediately...better a dead rat than a dead snake.