2 year old male burm, acting aggressive, what to do?

My fiance and I rescued a skinny, undernourished burm from a person who was essentially hoarding snakes this past August. He was under 4' long and had been fed on chicks... sometimes 3 or 4 at a time, every couple weeks. He was very thin and covered in mites. He was also behaving very aggressively with the person, but we chalked that up to inappropriately small prey items and starvation.

We brought him home with us and got him into a nice 4' x 2' cage and started feeding him appropriately sized prey. He has bulked up since and is now a bit over 4' long and of a healthy looking weight.

The problem is that since we moved him into the 4' x 2' from the 20 long quarantine tank, he has become VERY aggressive. He hisses if you so much as touch him with the hook. He thrashes and snaps and bit my fiance when we had him out a few weeks back, drawing significant blood. I realize that bites happen, but this snake has become intolerably aggressive. We'd eventually like to have children, and I for one am not going to be comfortable with a large aggressive snake in the house.

I'm not sure what to do at this point so I thought I'd seek the advice of more experienced keepers.

I've been trying to handle him regularly, but at this point it's hard even to get him out. He hisses continually when he is out, and acts this way even right after feeding. He's up to medium rats at this point-- 1 every 10 to 14 days. I've been heating them up and just laying them on the substrate, as I read in a book, to discourage aggression.

We have other large snakes that are not an issue for us-- including an 8' male BCI and a 5.5-6' Hogg Island.

If anyone has any thoughts, I'd welcome them. He is a normal burm, so rehoming him will be tough, and I honestly am not sure how I feel about putting what could end up being a bad problem off on someone else. At this point I almost wonder if we shouldn't consider putting him down... this world is pretty much at capacity for normal male burms-- an aggressive normal male burm just doesn't seem to fit. :(

Any thoughts will be much appreciated... I'm really just thinking out loud/ venting here.

This is just my guess here...

Cover the entire floor of the cage with balled up newspaper. He is probably stressing out because his world just got a whole hell of a lot bigger. The newspaper balls will give him cover everywhere and acclimate him to being in a larger environment. As he gets bigger you can take more and more of them out.

This works like a charm.

It should look like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVwaiSkyC18

Food. Lots of food. Rats and more rats. This will help but may not cure the attitude. It's rare for them to stay aggressive but it does happen.

If he's still aggressive after you've had him on a steady heavy diet of rats for a month or two it's time for a rescue or the freezer.

Based on the fact that he came from a 20L and just got put in a 4'x2' I would bet money that he is just freaking out. They probably only have a couple hides and a few pieces of decor in there with him which is definitely not enough cover for a snake coming from such a small cage.



DO NOT kill him, he just needs your help.

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Originally Posted by Slyther83

DO NOT kill him, he just needs your help.

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Dude, take it easy. I'm not skipping merrily off to the vet right now... just trying to ascertain if there's hope here, and what, if anything, I'm not doing right for this snake.

I am not the kind of person that believes that big, habitually aggressive snakes have a right to life merely on existence value, but I'll try everything I possibly can before we take that route.

But thank you for your advice so far, and Wes as well. I am getting a lot of good ideas from the various threads I've posted of things to try. The good news is that he is still very small, so he's not truly dangerous yet, and that means I have time to try all of these things.

I am taking it easy... ? I just said it because the poster above me made no sense entirely and was talking about the freezer.

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Originally Posted by Slyther83

I am taking it easy... ? I just said it because the poster above me made no sense entirely and was talking about the freezer.

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Yeah, that's it.

No sense at all.

The world NEEDS more aggressive giant snakes that no one wants. Yup. Sure thing there bucko, sure thing.

OR, maybe, just maybe, the poster above you can see past your tiny view and knows that some things are realities no matter how much that poster, or you for that matter, may wish otherwise.

The plain and simple, and I'm making it as plain and simple as I can for what should be, but may not be to all, is that when no one wants a snake too mean to keep, something must be done. Can't turn it loose. Rescues are LOADED with them. Breeders neither want nor need them and who the bloody hell needs a 15 ft. snake that wants to kill you?

So, as long as there are snakes like this one harsh decisions will have to be made or consequences of an unpleasant nature will have to be paid.

Suggesting death in a case where someone just moved a small snake from a 20L into an exponentially larger enclosure is really jumping the gun. Any experienced snake keeper would consider that factor in this situation before anything else.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions and that is what was expressed. Take what you can use and leave the rest.

Just for poops and grins, how many 'experienced keepers' have you personally talked about this with? How much experience do they have? For that matter, how much experience do you have?

Never mind, what I said was valid solid advice. Your inexperience notwithstanding.

The sad part is that you dont need much experience to come to the same, most logical conclusion that I did.

I would feed the snake more frequently.....start with every 7 days. Also, he probably IS freaking about being in a "huge" place now. Balled up newspapers, fakes vines, something to give him some cover. And 2 hides.

Another tip....I don't usually do this, but I recommend feeding outside the cage. Just from experience....I rescued a 13 ft female burm, who was SO not nice. Every time the c age door opened she was in your face striking. Not something I wanted to deal with. So on the advice of a long time breeder, I began using a hook to touch her before I picked her up....that was her cue it was NOT food time, it was out time. I also got a huge tote at Lowe's to feed her in. Took a few times, but she knew if she went in the tote, food was coming. After just a couple of months, I could open the cage and just reach in and get her. Just for the record, she was not rescued starving, she was rescued because they had no more room for her. I put her in a cage we built that was 6x4x2.5 and filled it up with hides and fake vines. Don't give up on your boy yet:)

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Originally Posted by Slyther83

The sad part is that you dont need much experience to come to the same, most logical conclusion that I did.

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Pure genius. Don't need experience to make a decision this serious.

I sure hope you're not a parent.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Pure genius. Don't need experience to make a decision this serious.

I sure hope you're not a parent.

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Based on both of our responses to the OP it is painfully clear that your parenting skills would be those in question.

Sarcasm doesn't change the fact that based on the OP's situation my response was the next most logical step for them to take.

Feeding the snake more has little to do with the fact it is being aggressive while in your hands or being hooked, as you stated yourself. You suggest something that won't help and then suggest death for the snake, great advice indeed.

Sorry OP for hijacking your thread, I am just trying to prevent you and your snake from some it blatantly poor advice.


Good luck with him!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Just for poops and grins, how many 'experienced keepers' have you personally talked about this with? How much experience do they have? For that matter, how much experience do you have?

Never mind, what I said was valid solid advice. Your inexperience notwithstanding.

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Still waiting on answers....

great! this guy again! :rolleyes:

parenting and snake keeping are two totally different beasts. do you feed your kids a few times a month and put them in a cage?

this character likes to jump in and rip people who ask questions he deems unworthy. he likes to make people feel lower than him to somehow elevate his "status". even though i agree he has the right to voice his opinion and to be honest he has a point. he just never learned manners or social skills. you cant really blame him. some people are just inconsiderate. thats life. there are people in this world that you should listen to and those who you should just brush off. its pure entertainment to me!

do your worst! nobodys buying it. tell me how narrow my thinking is. :D

to the OP. you are doing the right thing. you are asking questions. which means you are very open minded and willing to hear advice and criticism. thats a great quality.

good luck!

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Still waiting on answers....

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Maybe this could help point you in the right direction.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2096394_keep-pet-snake.html

:gj:

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Originally Posted by Slyther83

Maybe this could help point you in the right direction.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2096394_keep-pet-snake.html

:gj:

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LOL, good enough.

You've got enough experience to know what everyone should do. Cool.

So, it's just the snakes you've got listed that you've ever had any personal experience with then? Neat. How big are they? Excellent. Yup, you're the go to guy, thanks eversomuch for your outstanding advice.

Missed you to turtle.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

LOL, good enough.

You've got enough experience to know what everyone should do. Cool.

So, it's just the snakes you've got listed that you've ever had any personal experience with then? Neat. How big are they? Excellent. Yup, you're the go to guy, thanks eversomuch for your outstanding advice.

Missed you to turtle.

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Retics are great snakes to start out on, don't you know that? :rofl:

wilomn,
so what experience do you have to tell anyone what to do? no sarcasm. you seem to like to put everyone and anyone down who asks questions that we all should already know the answers to. so enlighten us poor pathetic souls in the only way, YOUR way, to keep any animal that ever existed.

you know why people get irritated by you? because you are so high up on that soap box giving proclamations of inferiority that you obviously have ZERO time for any actual husbandry.

its amazing to me. such a perfect God of herps among us all. praise be.....

just dont know why you cant be productive. oh....wait. i remember. you dont have time. so shut up and go away. :)

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Originally Posted by Slyther83

I am taking it easy... ? I just said it because the poster above me made no sense entirely and was talking about the freezer.

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The OP was also talking about a trip to the vet..................

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cecilbturtle

wilomn,
so what experience do you have to tell anyone what to do? no sarcasm. you seem to like to put everyone and anyone down who asks questions that we all should already know the answers to. so enlighten us poor pathetic souls in the only way, YOUR way, to keep any animal that ever existed.

you know why people get irritated by you? because you are so high up on that soap box giving proclamations of inferiority that you obviously have ZERO time for any actual husbandry.

its amazing to me. such a perfect God of herps among us all. praise be.....

just dont know why you cant be productive. oh....wait. i remember. you dont have time. so shut up and go away. :)

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Speaking of irritating posts, you just produced a dilly of one.

Now that it is plain to the rest of the forum that you have some sort of fascination with Wilomn, I must ask you what you plan on doing about?

Are you going to gaily pursue him from thread to thread, inviting him to frolic? Or are you going to continue to post theories on what he does in his free time? Your posts on him are getting progressively more regressive - I am expecting nothing but bad things for you from here.

Since your infatuation is based solely on his posts, and seeing as you are having a hard with the dual concepts of irony and sarcasm, maybe you should put him on "ignore" and make life less agonizing for you.

Or you could take your own advice and:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cecilbturtle

shut up and go away. :)

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I would strongly recommend the latter.



To the OP:

The snake was originally in a glass aquarium - correct? If that is the case, it is doubtful that the move from a glass aquarium to an enclosed 4x2 cage is making him feel insecure. To the pea-brained snake, lizard (or turtle) , there is no understanding of complex spatial relationships - an open on four sides glass enclosure would simply seem spatially larger than 4x2 closed in cage.

As some have suggested, it could be related to not feeding him enough. It could also be that your burm is just an jerk. If that's the case, the decision is simple:

Do you, as a potential future parent want a giant aggressive snake in your house? While I appreciate that you have experience with boas, a burm is, pardon the expression, a whole 'nother animal. Much longer, much heavier and much more than capable of hurting you or someone else.

If the answer is "no"? Are you willing to take the time to ensure that it goes to an experienced keeper who wants to and more importantly CAN deal with a giant, aggressive snake?

If again, the answer is "no" - then I would recommend a one way flight to (Youth-In) Asia.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sammy412

I would feed the snake more frequently.....start with every 7 days. Also, he probably IS freaking about being in a "huge" place now. Balled up newspapers, fakes vines, something to give him some cover. And 2 hides.

Another tip....I don't usually do this, but I recommend feeding outside the cage. Just from experience....I rescued a 13 ft female burm, who was SO not nice. Every time the c age door opened she was in your face striking. Not something I wanted to deal with. So on the advice of a long time breeder, I began using a hook to touch her before I picked her up....that was her cue it was NOT food time, it was out time. I also got a huge tote at Lowe's to feed her in. Took a few times, but she knew if she went in the tote, food was coming. After just a couple of months, I could open the cage and just reach in and get her. Just for the record, she was not rescued starving, she was rescued because they had no more room for her. I put her in a cage we built that was 6x4x2.5 and filled it up with hides and fake vines. Don't give up on your boy yet:)

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Is it safe to move a big burm that just ate? Is it easy? Are they aggressive after they eat, or not if they are full? I guess you could just put the tub next to his cage and tip it, letting him crawl back in himself.

Not meaning to thread-jack, but I just bought a hatchling burm, and this is interesting to me.

Moving from a feeding container to the home container is not a problem, even a few hours after the snake has eaten. Don't dangle it by the tail, be smooth and quick and you'll have no problems. This is true for babies up to snakes over 200 lbs. in my experience. Of course, you need to be sure the snake has been fed an adequate amount. Feeding a bigger snake a smaller meal, not satiating it, may lead to a hungry snake looking for more food.

The first time or two that you move the snake will be learning experiences for you both, but be patient and remember who's in charge (you're supposed to be).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Moving from a feeding container to the home container is not a problem, even a few hours after the snake has eaten. Don't dangle it by the tail, be smooth and quick and you'll have no problems. This is true for babies up to snakes over 200 lbs. in my experience. Of course, you need to be sure the snake has been fed an adequate amount. Feeding a bigger snake a smaller meal, not satiating it, may lead to a hungry snake looking for more food.

The first time or two that you move the snake will be learning experiences for you both, but be patient and remember who's in charge (you're supposed to be).

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Thanks! He's just a little guy now, about 200 or so g's. I've never thought about this with my balls. But, would probably be a good idea for the big guy.

:colbert: Don't want a hungy snake. Especially a burm.

I would usually let her stay in the tub for at least an hour.......so she would know the food was over. She had such a strong feed response, if you weren't careful when lifting the tote lid, she was out and trying to hit whatever was closest. EVERY time. The feed response never let up in all the time I had her. However, if I left her alone for a little bit after, I'd open the lid, touch her with the hook, then she'd know it was over and I could pick her up and move her back to her cage. Usually 2 of us, as she weighed about 120.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

The OP was also talking about a trip to the vet..................



Speaking of irritating posts, you just produced a dilly of one.

Now that it is plain to the rest of the forum that you have some sort of fascination with Wilomn, I must ask you what you plan on doing about?

Are you going to gaily pursue him from thread to thread, inviting him to frolic? Or are you going to continue to post theories on what he does in his free time? Your posts on him are getting progressively more regressive - I am expecting nothing but bad things for you from here.

Since your infatuation is based solely on his posts, and seeing as you are having a hard with the dual concepts of irony and sarcasm, maybe you should put him on "ignore" and make life less agonizing for you.

Or you could take your own advice and:



I would strongly recommend the latter.



To the OP:

The snake was originally in a glass aquarium - correct? If that is the case, it is doubtful that the move from a glass aquarium to an enclosed 4x2 cage is making him feel insecure. To the pea-brained snake, lizard (or turtle) , there is no understanding of complex spatial relationships - an open on four sides glass enclosure would simply seem spatially larger than 4x2 closed in cage.

As some have suggested, it could be related to not feeding him enough. It could also be that your burm is just an jerk. If that's the case, the decision is simple:

Do you, as a potential future parent want a giant aggressive snake in your house? While I appreciate that you have experience with boas, a burm is, pardon the expression, a whole 'nother animal. Much longer, much heavier and much more than capable of hurting you or someone else.

If the answer is "no"? Are you willing to take the time to ensure that it goes to an experienced keeper who wants to and more importantly CAN deal with a giant, aggressive snake?

If again, the answer is "no" - then I would recommend a one way flight to (Youth-In) Asia.

---

:)

Yes, he was in a glass aquarium for quarantine. On the floor of our bird room, which was the only room in the house with NO reptiles. This was important to us because of the sorry state he was in and the fact that he was, quite literally, crawling with mites.

I am not sure about feeding him outside his viv. That is counter to everything I have ever read about feeding them. I truly didn't just rush into this half assed. I did a lot of reading and felt like this was a good burm for me because it was coming from someone I, at the time, trusted and considered to be a fairly good friend. I was told he was super nice, but could no longer be kept because of the change in Florida's laws. I had no reason to believe otherwise up until I actually saw this fellows place and his "collection" at which time it became apparent that this would be a rescue from a very bad situation.

I did feed him last night, which was 7 days from his last feeding. I will continue to feed him every 7 days and see how he does. If that helps, great.

I am more than willing to try various things to help this guy, but I am inclined to agree with Wes in that the world does not need more aggressive snakes, and it's certainly not easy to find a home, even for free, for a large and aggressive normal male burm. He's not really worth anything as a breeder, so his sole value will be as a pet. Right now he's a piss poor pet, but he's only about 4' long. He's not going to hurt anyone seriously at that size. I have time to try some things and see if he can be tamed, but if he can't be, I am not going to shirk the responsibility of humanely euthanizing a potentially deadly animal because it makes me uncomfortable and is a difficult decision. I made an informed decision to take him in, allowing him to become my responsibility, and I'll do what I need to do to ensure that he is kept in a responsible manner. If that means allowing a vet to end his life should he stay very aggressive, then that's what I'll do.

In the mean time, though, I am getting a lot of good suggestions to try. I don't want to overwhelm him with insanity, but I added an additional hide yesterday and I am going to look around at the herp show this weekend and see what they have that could help him to feel more secure.

I do have one question, though. In my readings on burm aggression (most of which deals with juvenile and baby burms, not older adults) there was mention on one page that feathers from chickens carry an enzyme that has been shown to increase aggression. I did a little additional research and found some zoo and animal husbandry sites that had the same conclusion, but only in birds and mammals... no others related to snakes. Anyone else heard this?? He was being fed exclusively chicks for months and months....

To give you all an idea of size, here are a few photos.

Week we brought him home:
http://www.iherp.com/Gallery/90173/4...47key37hdF.jpg

About a month later:
http://www.iherp.com/Gallery/90173/4...8CB1qPADzM.jpg

His viv:
http://www.iherp.com/Gallery/90173/4...LZVS87EThj.jpg

He has a second hide on the opposite side now. No recent weights, but in November or early December he weighed in around 1300 grams.

High end breeders Ive spoken with recommend papertowel or hook training over exteriorviv feeding.

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Originally Posted by Slyther83

High end breeders Ive spoken with recommend papertowel or hook training over exteriorviv feeding.

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Who are these high end breeders?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Who are these high end breeders?

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Bob Clark, Brian Barczyk, Jay Brewer, Harry Wessels, Greg Bryant... I can keep going.

You're pretty pompous for a guy who has provided mediocre, borderline useless advice multiple times in one thread.

Gee Whiz Beav, those are some impressive names. Guess what though, I've spoken to and done business with some of them as well. Cool, huh? Funny thing is, while I don't disagree with what you've said, I wasn't there, I've also heard different things directly from these guys.

Heh, who'd a figured?

At any rate I'm sure she'll make an informed and well thought out decision in spite of all our help.

You put yourself at an exponentially higher risk by feeding large constrictors outside of the cage opposed to inside.

Hook training is safer than moving a recently fed constrictor back to its cage, period.

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Originally Posted by Slyther83

You put yourself at an exponentially higher risk by feeding large constrictors outside of the cage opposed to inside.

Hook training is safer than moving a recently fed constrictor back to its cage, period.

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According to some. This is no where that I've ever seen, set in stone.

I have two Burmese pythons that are both over 13 feet and I always put them in a large rubbermaid container to feed them and I have never had any probloms in doing so. I actually feel that this method is a much safer alternative rather than feeding them in the cage and hook traing them. With feeding them in there cage they still are expecting food everytime that door opens and even with hook training them you are still taking a chance of the snake expecting food when you open the door. I move all of my snakes into a rubbermaid container when they are getting fed and I have done so for many years and have had no probloms. I would have to also agree with Wes that if you have tried to do everything that was suggested and with time the snake doesnt seem to calm down any then it should be put down or takin to a rescue. Who wants a 14 foot plus snake that tries to eat you everytime you get it out. We dont need any more issues reguarding large constricters anyways.

What is paper towel training?

Paper towel training is basically the same thing as hook training, instead of taping or rubbing them on the head with a hook you use a roll of paper towels to do it before you get them out of there cage just to let them know its not feeding time.

I wanted to let everyone know, I handled him for a bit yesterday and he didn't hiss at any point. That's the first time in several months that he has behaved so well. I kept it short and positive. Going to feed him today and handle him again on Thursday.

Good, hopefully the more frequent feedings and short happy handling sessions make an impact :)

Have you tried the balled up newspaper trick, or are you going to skip it?

Glad to hear it.

Have not tried the balled up newspaper yet, but I put more hides in. He really like the grass hide. I am going to see how this goes. I don't want to overwhelm him with changes all at once.

id say he may want to hide alot more maybe drape a towel over half the tank so he has a large dark area... if he gets to the point where he needs to go i will definetly take him in!!! i love a challenge! i usually wear a glove an just stick my hand in the tank so he can bite it and i dont pull away so he realizes that he isnt a threat to me.... i have 2 retics a burm and a rock python an i will kiss all of them on the face without worry!

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Originally Posted by johnlebel97

id say he may want to hide alot more maybe drape a towel over half the tank so he has a large dark area... if he gets to the point where he needs to go i will definetly take him in!!! i love a challenge! i usually wear a glove an just stick my hand in the tank so he can bite it and i dont pull away so he realizes that he isnt a threat to me.... i have 2 retics a burm and a rock python an i will kiss all of them on the face without worry!

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That's The smartest thing, I have ever heard........Oh yeah except for diseases you can pass from yourself to the snake, or from your snake to yourself. WOW. The other thing is, You put on a glove and let them bite you so that they realize you are not a threat to them, or he isn't a threat to you........TILL HE BITES YOU IN THE FACE< WHERE THERE IS NO GLOVE!!!!!!!!

a clean towel is used....
and ive never taken a bite to the face... i owned well over 100 snakes since is was 16 and any of them that were pissy i used same method with and after about 3-5 times of entering tank with the glove they would ignore it...

then again everyone has their own methods that seem to work for them... just sayin what works for me...

Number One: FEED HEAVILY. A two year old burm that is only four feet long has been severely underfed for far too long. I would offer food every seven days, and I would not be stingy with the food. I would feed at least two prey items of appropriate size every seven days.

Number Two: Prepare the enclosure. Make sure that you have multiple hides in the cage, a water container large enough for soaking, and plenty of heat. I would try to keep the hot spot at 92F and keep the cool end down around 84F if possible. The main point is that he needs a lot of heat to digest that much food that quickly.

Number Three: Handle sparingly for the first few months. This snake has been through a lot of shtuff and he doesn't need you screwing with him until he settles in and can actually live like a snake should live instead of a starving refugee.

I'm willing to bet that when the snake can't remember the last time it was hungry, thirsty, or covered in mites it will be a much happier camper.

After this adjustment period I recommend hook training. I use a cardboard tube from a wrapping paper roll, but it's the same general principle. After he has calmed down he should come to respond to hook training.

Captive bred burms tend to be one of the calmest large constrictors out there. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if once this guy adjusts he doesn't calm right down puppy dog tame on his own.

One of the reasons we took him in was to eventually use him in educational demos and events. Do you think he will ever be trustworthy enough to use in that capacity?

theres always hope!!! i intend on doing the same thing with my reps too

It's a good idea, and I respect that. I use several snakes in my shows, and some have been aggressive when I have first taken them in. As stated before, heavy feed and just keep working. Good luck