spider wobble?

got a question bout the infamous spider wobble does the wobblw effect all spider gened balls ie bumblebees spids ect or is it just inthe orig snakes

Anything with spider in it, yes.

Dont mean to hijack but I have a question... If I bred a bumble bee to a normal and got a couple pastels, would those pastels not carrying ther spider gene, even though they came from one, still have a wobble?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by that_dc5

Dont mean to hijack but I have a question... If I bred a bumble bee to a normal and got a couple pastels, would those pastels not carrying ther spider gene, even though they came from one, still have a wobble?

---

No. They dont have the spider gene, so they wouldn't have the wobble. It is anything with the spider gene(pattern).:D

I have a male pastel, whose father was a NERD line bumblebee..........now, he looks like a pastel, although an extremely light one.........but he does have the slightest wobble and I have noticed it a few times. he is not sick, and he never misses a meal. But I do believe it is a true wobble.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Failshed

No. They dont have the spider gene, so they wouldn't have the wobble. It is anything with the spider gene(pattern).:D

---

Just curious? have you did any of these breeding's then observed the resulting offspring over a period of time to verify that there is no spider influence such as wobble,corkscrewing or any thing else?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sammy412

I have a male pastel, whose father was a NERD line bumblebee..........now, he looks like a pastel, although an extremely light one.........but he does have the slightest wobble and I have noticed it a few times. he is not sick, and he never misses a meal. But I do believe it is a true wobble.

---

I have seen similar wobble in clutches I produced breeding for spiders,some of the non spiders were observed to exhibit the wobble after time.they all ate and grew at a normal rate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drumsinthenight.

Just curious? have you did any of these breeding's then observed the resulting offspring over a period of time to verify that there is no spider influence such as wobble,corkscrewing or any thing else?

---

My Pastel male is the son of a Bumblebee to a normal. 0 wobble.

The shop I do business with in Miami has plenty of sibs of spiders (which he has had over a year now), and I have never noticed what you described.

If it is true (not saying that it isn't) it's news to me.

I think there are some spiders with wobbles and others without. I also Think that many people have put the wobble off as no big deal and therefore breed an animal with a wobble, I personally have a male breeder spider I acquired him
About 3 years ago from Snakemans Exotics and have bred him getting successful clutches 2x. Now first of all he has no wobble, not even a slight one. And never has. Secondly, I have 3 of his babies in my racks still, one spider female from 2 years ago and 1 normal male from last year, and a spider male from last year. All babies do not nor ever have had any wobble, not even the slightest. There are spiders out there without wobbles. My partner on some projects has 3 adult females their first year is this season that have no wobble. Babies from spider parents with wobbles have wobbles and that can go for spiders or non spiders. In my experience with breeding my spider anyways all of the babies he's had thus far have had no wobbles.

Hi,

Do any of them hold their head slightly tilted to one side if you sit and look at them head on?


dr del

Nope I've never seen anything like that either. They hold their heads straight, no wobbling, or jerking, no corkscrewing, eats dead on. Etc I can't speak for the head tilt for my partners 3 adults but I've seen them moving etc and I've never seen a wobble on them. I'm soley speaking for my adult male and his 3 children.

Typically, the wobble comes with the spider gene. Some wobble, some don't. I have 4 generations of the same spider line in my collection, the founding female has never wobbled since the day I got her as a hatchling yet some of her descendants do and some don't. Personally, I'm one of those that doesn't think it's a big deal. I think of it more as a quirk than a defect.

Thanks all this is why I love this forum honest answers with experts giving their two cents the reason I ask is I want a killer bee but my girlfriend saw a YouTube vid of a really bad spider wobble and didn't like it at all so I wanted to see if the higher end spider genes have the same problems so I guess I need to find a good breeder

There is no guarantee a baby bought with no wobble will end up that way.
We bought a spider as a hatchling that was perfect in every way till he got to about 10 months old and now he's the biggest corkscrewing spider you ever saw.
Buying a young spider or spider combo is ALWAYS a gamble.

My spider also has no wobble. But you can tell there is something neurological goin on, he just seems off. He used to miss a lot of strikes when he was younger but now nails it 1st time everytime, maybe it just took him a little time to figure out/compensate whatever his issue is.

I posted A thread on this topic about a month back and got some great opinions on the topic just checkout my started threads it's under Bumblebee wobble.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sammy412

I have a male pastel, whose father was a NERD line bumblebee..........now, he looks like a pastel, although an extremely light one.........but he does have the slightest wobble and I have noticed it a few times. he is not sick, and he never misses a meal. But I do believe it is a true wobble.

---

Interesting ...

I asked that same question in the past ("has anyone ever produced a neurologic non-spider from a spider breeding") and didn't get many responses. But ...

This past year I produced a super pastel from a bumblebee x pastel. For about a month or so, the super had a mild head tilt. Twice now, I have observed him to spin backwards just like his bumblebee father does on VERY rare occasions, and just like his father, he snaps right out of it if interrupted.

His clutch did experience some severe variances in temperature during incubation, and he hasn't been seen to do anything "off" for some time now. I had written it off as a temporary thing from the temp. spikes.

Still ... It's interesting.

That's exactly what my pastel does....not often, but every now and then, he spins backwards, just slightly, just enough so you look and go wth?? He also stops when distracted. I didn't notice it until he got to be about 300g, although it may be that I just wasn't around for it before then. It's not severe, it's barely noticeable, but it looks like what I have seen actualy spiders to in videos, to a lesser degree. It doesn't bother me, but it could be a trait that is dominant with the spider gene, and maybe carried as a recessive in a spider cross?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

His clutch did experience some severe variances in temperature during incubation, and he hasn't been seen to do anything "off" for some time now. I had written it off as a temporary thing from the temp. spikes.

Still ... It's interesting.

---

Could you define severe? Just curious. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sammy412

I have a male pastel, whose father was a NERD line bumblebee..........now, he looks like a pastel, although an extremely light one.........but he does have the slightest wobble and I have noticed it a few times. he is not sick, and he never misses a meal. But I do believe it is a true wobble.

---

There are many causes for these kinds of abnormal behaviors. Not only does the spider trait cause it, but in carpet pythons the jaguar trait similarly has some neurological/balance issues related to it.

I have also heard of non-spider ball pythons exhibiting similar behavior to the spider wobble, despite not even being RELATED to spiders, much less exhibiting the trait.

I know that line breeding does not seem to be a big deal when it comes to Ball pythons. I would assume it is because until recently (last 15-20 years) there has been no reason to line breed therefore they can afford a few generation in order to get the desired "morph genes".

I am not stating an opinion here just raising the question/thought. Do you think that this is the beginning effects of line breeding? The same as German Shepherd dogs and Labs have "bad hips" and Boxers have "blood disease". Cocker Spaniels "cocker Rage" showing extreme aggression http://bsl.bsl-sbt.com/breeds/ragesy...iels.php?s=&l=. My food for thought is do you think if line breeding continues we will see more morph based deformities? :please:

Personally we have a female spider and she definitely has the wobble, head tilt, and when she tries to climb straight up she reaches a certain point then shakes and falls slowly. It reminds me of Parkinson disease in humans. I am concerned because we bought her with the intention of breeding her and currently she is our only female. However the information available on whether the "woble" is connect to the spider gene is so con-traversal that I am not sure if breeding her is responsible. I am glad she is just a baby and we have 3 more years to research before making a decision. Regardless we are quiet fond of her and she will be a beloved pet regardless. :snake:

Again. I have no opinion currently and would love to hear more peoples view on the matter before I form my own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Failshed

Could you define severe? Just curious. :D

---

REALLY severe. If I recall correctly, it was ~100F for days at a time and spiked to >110F at some points. Most of the eggs died and I'm honestly shocked that anything made it at all. (Helpful hint from Dr. Del: fans can create heat through friction!!) This year I'm gonna get this incubation thing right, I SWEAR ...


In response to Moshballs' post (sorry I'm not sure how to easily quote multiple people), this has been discussed before, but basically, line breeding has not one single thing to do with the spider "wobble." The "wobble" is directly connected to the single spider gene, whether it's a part of the gene itself, or on another gene that is VERY tightly linked (so tightly that you almost NEVER get one without the other).

Because all we're (typically) breeding for, with ball pythons, is one single gene, or a handful of discrete single genes, and you can get those genes by breeding your gene carrier (spider, banana, what have you) with ANY other ball python, our animals are typically very outcrossed. Spiders are no exception, given that they are a dominant /incomplete dominant morph and can be reproduced by breeding to literally any other ball python. They may have been inbred a few times in the very beginnings of the morph, when people were still looking for a super form, but since then they have been highly HIGHLY outcrossed to create combo morphs.

In addition, even the most tightly inbred ball pythons are more outcrossed than nearly any dog breed ... If you go back in the pedigrees of many champion dogs and count the ancestors, even if the animal wasn't "inbred" for a few generations back, the "background inbreeding" is often exceptionally high. You'll see the same ancestors over and over and over. (Ditto with performance horses.) Even if you had a BP project where you bred offspring back to parents, I still don't think your inbreeding coefficient would be as high. :O

Line breeding does one thing: it fixes traits in a bloodline. These traits could be good ("These dogs excel at search and rescue;" "These pastels are bright gold") or bad ("These dogs have awful hips;" "These pieds are terrible feeders.") The thing of it is, though, we haven't even really done all that much line breeding in BPs yet. That's why those few who have line bred for quality ask higher prices for their animals: line breeding takes many generations to fix those good traits, and it's a lot more work and effort than just pairing a few nice critters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MoshBalls

Do you think that this is the beginning effects of line breeding?

---

No.

The original spider, the founding animal that ALL spiders are decended from had a wobble. Ask anyone in the industry for a long time and they'll tell you ALL spiders wobble. I personally believe that as well.

Many people believe that theirs don't, but put them in some sort of stressful situation, or watch them with the lights out at night, and they just don't move the same as other ball pythons.

You can even tell from many pictures, even pictures of animals that the owners swear don't wobble - the head is just held at a slight angle that non-spiders don't.

My belief is that the spider and the wobble are linked, as evidenced by all spider combo's also having the wobble.

It's one of the most out bred morph, simply because there is no evidence that there is a super form, and yet all spiders wobble - from so barely noticeable that the owner will swear it's a non-wobbler, to the other side of being a train wreck.