multiple snakes

are there any precautions i should take in putting a second snake into tank

Well, yes. First off, has the second snake been quarantined? For how long? Sometimes you can't notice a snake is sick until you've had them in your collection for quite a while. That's when you notice the snake is continuing to not eat or is acting strange...

You can spread some nasty diseases to your current snake by adding a 'friend'

Be prepared, I personally would not house two snakes together. Even ball pythons have been documented as cannibalizing each other, and as snake owners know it doesn't take much to confuse a snake into striking and coiling--If you hand smells like rat after brushing against it, imagine how much the fellow snake smells like rat after EATING it.. You don't want to have your snakes kill each other! Even if you do feed separately, there will be a risk.

Not to mention if a snake regurgitates you won't know which snake did it, same goes for weird poo and other problems in the tank. If one gets sick, they both will get sick. That's double the vet bills for ya!

You will also need to make sure both snakes can find hiding places at the different areas of the tank. You don't want them to be forced to be next to each other in a hide, stressing each other out just because they both need to be at that temperature! People may think it looks like cuddling, but it is really more about the snake needing that spot to help thermoregulate!

It can be done, but not without risks. It takes a lot of knowledge and preparation for this sort of thing. It's easiest and safest to have two enclosures...


Anyone who's had to share a room with a sibling or had a roommate in a dorm knows it can be stressful to have someone in the same room with you! Now imagine being trapped in that room, you can't even go out to be alone anywhere! :rolleye2: I think that would drive anyone mad. It's important to give a lot of hides when housing multiple snakes.


Like I said, I wouldn't do it. There are so many cons with multiple snakes, and so many pros for keeping them separate, some people can do it, but it takes a bit of extra work, and no matter what you do you will be taking a risk.

Please be aware everyone's simply going to tell you not to do it.

These are balls? How old are the two snakes, how big are they, and what are their genders? You probably don't want to house snakes together if one is more than twice the size of the other. It's harder for older animals to get used to another snake, especially if they've lived alone for a long time. Younger snakes acclimate to cage mates within a couple weeks, if not immediately. Two males can share space, but if they are over a year old, they are likely to challenge each other. (And once they get over that, I guarantee they will lock with one another. Which is fine, I guess? At least they're happy? I guess?)

And you REALLY don't want to house snakes of opposite gender together if one is a female between 600 and 1200 grams.

... if you've made it past all those ifs ands or buts, the one big rule is: if you house together YOU MUST FEED SEPARATELY. In general, ball pythons won't attack one another, especially once they've acclimated to a cagemate--but if they smell a mouse, all bets are off. Feed them separately, in cardboard boxes, so they never ever associate the shared space with food.

(If they're males, I recommend introducing them for a few days on neutral territory--that is, not in the tank that the established male already lives in. The stress of a new environment will keep them both on slightly better behavior, and then they'll mostly be over the stress of a new snake. But do keep an eye on them for the first several hours anyway.)

well i have a small female she just got over 100 grams i was thinking of adding a second female of about the same proportions and i already knew that the new addition will need to be watched for sickness

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Originally Posted by SkullyB

well i have a small female she just got over 100 grams i was thinking of adding a second female of about the same proportions and i already knew that the new addition will need to be watched for sickness

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If you can't quarantine the new animals for a minimum of 90 days, don't do it.

Whatever "watching for sickness" entails, it doesn't cut it.

No way, no how. Not worth it.

Our first two were sisters.
We had them together with no problems for a couple of months.
The only major issue was they were not putting on and weight.
One would eat every 5 days and the other every 10 days.
When we put them in separate tanks they both started eating every 5 days and growing faster.
Dont know if there was stress or what but they seem healthier in their own homes.:gj:

Why do you want to put them together any way?

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Originally Posted by TheWinWizard

No way, no how. Not worth it.

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x2

<waits patiently for the torches and pitchforks...>

Not a good idea, don't be cheap just buy a separate enclosure lol I've heard a million times and live by it:

There are a ton of ways to save money on your ball pythons, but don't save when it comes to their safety.

Ask any of the "bigtime" breeders what they think about housing together, I bet they'll say "sure, if you want ALL of your snakes dead". Sickness doesn't just show up, and once you notice it, it'll be too late and then ALL your snakes will have it.

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Originally Posted by LGray23

<waits patiently for the torches and pitchforks...>

Not a good idea, don't be cheap just buy a separate enclosure lol I've heard a million times and live by it:

There are a ton of ways to save money on your ball pythons, but don't save when it comes to their safety.

Ask any of the "bigtime" breeders what they think about housing together, I bet they'll say "sure, if you want ALL of your snakes dead". Sickness doesn't just show up, and once you notice it, it'll be too late and then ALL your snakes will have it.

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Have you asked any big time breeders this?

I didn't think so...............because if you had, you wouldn't have posted what you did.

Just so everyone is clear on this, some breeders cohabitate snakes. Period. Some of you who know no better can flap your gums all day that they don't, but that doesn't change the fact that they do. Some species breed easier if kept as pairs.

As for sick snakes - most breeders keep them in rack systems in which snakes are housed together in little tubs mere inches from each other.

Sickness will easily spread in rack systems and snake rooms even if *gasp* the animals are housed separately. Many viruses and some of the more aggressive bacteria don't respect a 1/4" of chinese plastic.

Only proper quarantine and veterinary examinations prevent the spread of most ophidian pathogens. After that, you can put them in the same room or tub together.

As for cannibalism - there is a difference between snakes that are truly ophiophagus and stupid bone-headed feeding mistakes that result in the accidental ingestion of a tank/tub mate.

Ball pythons are not naturally ophiophagus. But if a keeper is too ignorant to properly separate tank mates before feeding, then there is definitely an increased risk that one roommate may accidentally eat the other. Again, like the big "they'll both get sick if you house them together!" bugaboo, this is a risk than can be completely mitigated if the keeper utilizes an iota of common sense.

So when people claim ball pythons are cannibalistic - it's really a crock of crap. Balls have been known to eat other balls in rare (yes rare) instances where the keeper was too inexperienced to know better than to separate them at supper time.

Here's the cookie-cutter bit of advice to the OP - don't keep your snakes together. Not because it can't be done or isn't done successfully, but because it requires elevated husbandry skills, added care and added vigilance - most of which can't be imparted on a reptile forum.

There's a big difference between cohabitating snakes to breed together (which clearly big time breeders DO), but cohabitating same sex snakes for the fun of it? Yes I am quite sure they don't do. Ask a breeder how many of their snakes in the racks get sick all at the same time in the same area, there's quite a few. Now imagine if all those snakes lived in the same exclosure, then, clearly, they'd ALL be sick....not just the bunch in the racks. For someone acusing people of "flapping their gums" you sure do it quite quicker. I don't retract my post, or edit it, except maybe use smaller words so people understand what I meant, who are quick to point the finger ;)

I have housed two carpets together successfully, but do not generally house snakes together. My main reasons are feeding and health issues.

I have had two incidents where I accidentally fed breeding snakes, which could have, in both cases been disastrous. I fed feed an adult female boa a rat without realizing that there was an adult male in the cage with her. Needless to say, they both grabbed one end of the rat. It was extremely hard to get the male unlatched. I got lucky. The other incident was a breeding ball python pair. I threw a live rat into the tub. The female grabbed on to it. Luckily I realized I made the mistake right away, and snatched the male up quickly.

The health concerns are apparent. If one gets sick, the other will likely catch it.

Although I do not generally house snakes together, I do not tell people that they shouldn’t. As long as they feed outside of the enclosure, or remove one snake before feeding, then the feeding issue should be taken care of. They should also take extra precautions to ensure the snakes are healthy before adding another snake.

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Originally Posted by LGray23

There's a big difference between cohabitating snakes to breed together (which clearly big time breeders DO), but cohabitating same sex snakes for the fun of it? Yes I am quite sure they don't do. Ask a breeder how many of their snakes in the racks get sick all at the same time in the same area, there's quite a few. Now imagine if all those snakes lived in the same exclosure, then, clearly, they'd ALL be sick....not just the bunch in the racks. For someone acusing people of "flapping their gums" you sure do it quite quicker. I don't retract my post, or edit it, except maybe use smaller words so people understand what I meant, who are quick to point the finger ;)

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If it will help you understand my posts better, I will gladly use monosyllabic words......just ask.

Your post reveals just how little you know on the subject. That's not a crime. Some species will NOT mate or do worse if you do not co-habitate them together year round.

Snakes do not get magically sick out of the blue. They get sick when they are kept improperly or introduced to new animals that are not properly quarantined or treated for parasites. Again, most people don't quarantine their new arrivals correctly - I bet more than half the people on this forum have never really quarantined a new arrival. No need to get all hot and bothered for not knowing that.

But you are regurgitating crap you have read by posters who are regurgitating crap they have read. You are offering opinions based not on actual experience, but word of mouth. That's very dangerous when it comes to giving advice. Be very sure of what you are advising before you advise it.........

What is truly regrettable is that despite not really knowing what you are talking about, you are continuing to assert that you cannot house two snakes together. You are attempting to deflect that lack of knowledge by referring to these mythical "big breeders" who don't do it, and who also offer dire warnings of doom to anyone who does.

The FACT is that many people do it - experienced herpers and breeders alike who have done it for years. As I said, some species will not breed or accept a mate unless co-habitated.

The FACT is that while we do it, we also caution against doing it. Again, not because it CAN'T be done or shouldn't be done, but because it requires knowledge and experience to do it successfully.

In the case of some species, it is actually a giant pain in the ass that, in order to breed them, you have to keep them together year round. Try separating and reintroducing some highly toxic rear fanged animals every week, for years on end. Not something I would elect to do, but need to so that I can produce babies.

So, in the case of the OP, he probably should avoid doing it. But get it through your head that this doesn't mean that doing it is a bad thing, or something to avoid or a husbandry no-no, or something that the rock star big breeders don't do.

Are you starting to get it now? Your initial advice to the OP was correct - in his case it shouldn't be done. The reasons you followed up on were wrong.

Okay....

When you can point out anywhere in any of my postings where I said they CANNOT be housed together, I will gladly answer any questions you have. From what I see, I said it's not a good idea, along with 95% of other people who own ball pythons. BUT if you saw something that I didn't type, or magically showed up, then I'll gladly apologize for the misunderstanding.

Let's try this again, just to be clear.

The breeders that I have become very close friends with, who have years of their and others (including big name breeders) experience, who I then gain my knowledge from by asking questions, wouldn't even consider putting two same sex snakes in the same exclosure.

CAN it be done? Clearly, since you pointed that out.
SHOULD it be done? Obviously...debatable.
SHOULD it be done by anyone other than someone who has many years of experience? In my opinion (key word here), no.
You, who clearly knows all, should be able to see the difference between opinion and fact.

And I should probably point out that when I said "snakes" I did NOT mean all breeds, since this is in the ball python section I assumed people would understand I meant ball pythons, shame on me for assuming.

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Originally Posted by LGray23

Okay....

When you can point out anywhere in any of my postings where I said they CANNOT be housed together, I will gladly answer any questions you have. From what I see, I said it's not a good idea, along with 95% of other people who own ball pythons. BUT if you saw something that I didn't type, or magically showed up, then I'll gladly apologize for the misunderstanding.

Let's try this again, just to be clear.

The breeders that I have become very close friends with, who have years of their and others (including big name breeders) experience, who I then gain my knowledge from by asking questions, wouldn't even consider putting two same sex snakes in the same exclosure.

CAN it be done? Clearly, since you pointed that out.
SHOULD it be done? Obviously...debatable.
SHOULD it be done by anyone other than someone who has many years of experience? In my opinion (key word here), no.
You, who clearly knows all, should be able to see the difference between opinion and fact.

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Ah, I think the misunderstanding lies in the fact that while I quoted your post, I was addressing other people who posted in this thread. You are correct, you did not say you CANNOT house them together - you strongly advised against it, but for completely different reasons than I do.

When it comes to sick snakes, I still take exception to your post. I have been keeping snakes for over three decades, and while my knowledge of snakes is far from all encompassing, I can tell you the number of outbreaks of disease I have had in that time:

1 - and it was due to a disease than cannot be quarantined away or 100% found by even multiple tests.

I currently have less than 25 animals, but that's the lowest I've had in a long, long time. For a period of time, I was importing quite a few WC snakes from Africa and elsewhere and never had an outbreak of anything.

I also keep rhamps, thrasops, and pseustes in breeding pairs. In the past I have kept spilotes and various antaresia in continual pairings and have never had an issue. I have even had cribos that would not breed unless kept year round - all without issue - be it cannibalism or disease.

Therefore when it comes to this notion that properly quarantined and treated snakes get sick out of the blue and infect their room/tank mates, I feel fairly qualified to speak out of experience.

I also personally know quite a few big name breeders who wouldn't know proper quarantine if it bit them in the ass. How do I know? I've sold to a few over the years. Yep, they receive a box of baby cribos on Friday and on Monday they are posting them for sale. There are many members of that group that are rightfully wary of snake diseases - mainly because they have collections that are constantly exposed to new, unquarantined arrivals.

The issue I had with your original post is that it implies that cohabitating properly quarantined animals together will result (so say the big box breeders) in an a bunch of dead animals. Nothing could be further than the truth.

The biggest problem in cohabitating ball pythons is that they are easily stressed. But many people remove them and feed them in separate containers which is also stressful so go figure................

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

If it will help you understand my posts better, I will gladly use monosyllabic words......just ask.

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So, What I have gathered from your so useful posts today are:
1- you know it all
2- you know how to properly spell big words (thank spell check)
3- you are know how to make a newby more insecure about their situation
4- you can REALLY make yourself look like an *hat* quickly

To the OP, there are some here more experienced than others and there there are those that just like to see themselves type (if you know what I mean)
Feel free to keep asking your questions and expanding your knowledge, we all need to learn from each other. Even if it is learning when to keep our browsers shut.;)

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Ah, I think the misunderstanding lies in the fact that while I quoted your post, I was addressing other people who posted in this thread. You are correct, you did not say you CANNOT house them together - you strongly advised against it, but for completely different reasons than I do.

When it comes to sick snakes, I still take exception to your post. I have been keeping snakes for over three decades, and while my knowledge of snakes is far from all encompassing, I can tell you the number of outbreaks of disease I have had in that time:

1 - and it was due to a disease than cannot be quarantined away or 100% found by even multiple tests.

I currently have less than 25 animals, but that's the lowest I've had in a long, long time. For a period of time, I was importing quite a few WC snakes from Africa and elsewhere and never had an outbreak of anything.

I also keep rhamps, thrasops, and pseustes in breeding pairs. In the past I have kept spilotes and various antaresia in continual pairings and have never had an issue. I have even had cribos that would not breed unless kept year round - all without issue - be it cannibalism or disease.

Therefore when it comes to this notion that properly quarantined and treated snakes get sick out of the blue and infect their room/tank mates, I feel fairly qualified to speak out of experience.

I also personally know quite a few big name breeders who wouldn't know proper quarantine if it bit them in the ass. How do I know? I've sold to a few over the years. Yep, they receive a box of baby cribos on Friday and on Monday they are posting them for sale. There are many members of that group that are rightfully wary of snake diseases - mainly because they have collections that are constantly exposed to new, unquarantined arrivals.

The issue I had with your original post is that it implies that cohabitating properly quarantined animals together will result (so say the big box breeders) in an a bunch of dead animals. Nothing could be further than the truth.

The biggest problem in cohabitating ball pythons is that they are easily stressed. But many people remove them and feed them in separate containers which is also stressful so go figure................

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And while I agree that that ball pythons stress easily, I'm not sure anyone can say 100% that it's the biggest problem. I was just saying that in my experience, in horror stories I've heard, in people I've talked to, in the countless hours I've spent researching between books-internet-asking direct questions to big breeders, that if snakes can get killed off by the dozen in racks, what do you think will happen if they are kept together? That was my only comment, and you distorted it or misinterpreted it to say that "it is NEVER a good idea to house together." Which is not what I meant. Also IMO you are very quick to shoot people down who are trying to help, over little details that you misinterpreted.

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Originally Posted by LGray23

And while I agree that that ball pythons stress easily, I'm not sure anyone can say 100% that it's the biggest problem. I was just saying that in my experience, in horror stories I've heard, in people I've talked to, in the countless hours I've spent researching between books-internet-asking direct questions to big breeders, that if snakes can get killed off by the dozen in racks, what do you think will happen if they are kept together? That was my only comment, and you distorted it or misinterpreted it to say that "it is NEVER a good idea to house together." Which is not what I meant. Also IMO you are very quick to shoot people down who are trying to help, over little details that you misinterpreted.

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I'm still not misinterpreting what you are claiming on disease. In properly quarantined and kept animals - it's not a factor.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I'm still not misinterpreting what you are claiming on disease. In properly quarantined and kept animals - it's not a factor.

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Key words properly quarentined and kept....which I never disagreed with.

Boas could eat each other.

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Originally Posted by LGray23

Key words properly quarentined and kept....which I never disagreed with.

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Cheers!

thanks for all the feed back after a 60-90 day quarantine, im putting them together. and ill still have the extra tank if they do end up becoming aggressive twards each other and also for feeding purposes! its not that im trying to be cheap im just looking for something more convenient, for example temperatures, humidity and water, while its not hard to mantain one tank it may become harder to maintain as i expand my collection of ball pythons not saying im gonna put 6 in the same cage. and i originally ment quarantine in the first post just couldnt think of the word at 3 am! but again thanks for ALL the feedback!

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Originally Posted by SkullyB

thanks for all the feed back after a 60-90 day quarantine, im putting them together. and ill still have the extra tank if they do end up becoming aggressive twards each other and also for feeding purposes! its not that im trying to be cheap im just looking for something more convenient, for example temperatures, humidity and water, while its not hard to mantain one tank it may become harder to maintain as i expand my collection of ball pythons not saying im gonna put 6 in the same cage. and i originally ment quarantine in the first post just couldnt think of the word at 3 am! but again thanks for ALL the feedback!

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So, after everyone basically told you it was a bad idea you are still going to do it? Nice. Why even ask? Bad idea IMO. You are not experienced enough, and it's only for your convenience. You should think about the health of your snakes first and foremost.

AND, it is much easier to do separate tubs. You will need a pretty big tank to house two ball pythons, and make sure they have equal access to the hot spot. Then you have humidity issues. Why not take a big tank and divide it?

i asked to better understand the precautions i need to take not to have people say not to do it, the best way to learn is to do so im doing this to learn. thanks


also tank size is not a factor! ill be bumping the current one up to a bigger tank specifically so she can be housed with another snake, and using the tank shes in now for the quarantine tank

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Originally Posted by SkullyB

the best way to learn is to do so im doing this to learn.

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Not when its about the well being of your animals. The best way to learn is education, and actually pay attention to what your reading.

if it dosnt look like its gonna work out with them as "roommates" ill take the new addition out. and i did read and i do understand i understand its not impossible to house 2 BALL PYTHONS together without adverse affect unless god forbid i make a feeding error or the snakes just REALLY dont like eachother! and as for stress in my current ball, it will be very apparent very quick. as shes active always, eats regularly, and just finished a PERFECT shed! so changes shouldnt be hard to notice

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Originally Posted by SkullyB

as shes active always

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This means a stressed out ball python. Study a little more, please. Of course it's not impossible, but just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should.

I'm sorry, but I would never risk hurting one of my animals. No matter how much time it takes me to clean cages. If I can't handle all my snakes, then I need to get rid of some.

It will not always be an "adverse affect" if something goes wrong. You think its all black and white, it's not. There will be little things that could go wrong, and you won't know until it's too late.

at first i thought the activity was a bad thing but for one reason or another the snake likes to be handled

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Originally Posted by SkullyB

thanks for all the feed back after a 60-90 day quarantine, im putting them together. and ill still have the extra tank if they do end up becoming aggressive twards each other and also for feeding purposes! its not that im trying to be cheap im just looking for something more convenient, for example temperatures, humidity and water, while its not hard to mantain one tank it may become harder to maintain as i expand my collection of ball pythons not saying im gonna put 6 in the same cage. and i originally ment quarantine in the first post just couldnt think of the word at 3 am! but again thanks for ALL the feedback!

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Forget the fact that you CAN keep them together - the problem is that if you are looking for convenience, keeping them apart is MORE convenient.

No need to separate while feeding, no need to worry about setting up enough hides and thermoregulation zones for two snakes in one tank, I could go on but you get the point.

Keeping snakes together is harder. If you are looking for convenience, by all means, after the QT period is up continue keeping them apart.

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Originally Posted by SkullyB

also tank size is not a factor! ill be bumping the current one up to a bigger tank specifically so she can be housed with another snake, and using the tank shes in now for the quarantine tank

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Bumping into a larger (most likely glass) tank can, and usually does cause more problems to novice keepers than anything else. BPs like smaller, enclosed spaces where they can feel safe and secure. Glass tanks are poor insulators and are notoriously difficult to keep proper temps and humidity.

Everyone's pretty much told you it's a bad idea, so I suppose me saying it again is pointless. I'll just try to stress the point that other's have made. I strongly oppose your reasoning of housing them together because it's more "convenient". It may seem convenient to you now, but when they start presenting health problems as a direct result of inadequate personal space you will start to rethink just how convenient it was, lol.
If you're going to purchase an animal, you should already expect to put in effort for their care and comfort, whether it's a snake or a dog. Each animal deserves individual attention and time, not "the easy way out".

As well as big changes for these guys can effect eating for much longer than you may like. My experience keeping 2 balls together in my very beginning years, was it doesn't work unless you know more than just basic husbandry. One snake 95% of the time becomes stressed and starts refusing food. This is generally immediate and can last long after separated. Also there will be competion in the tank. This can also be very stressful. Remember you are dealing with wild instincts. Even though they are in captivity they will vie for dominance. I only think this should be done by highly experienced keepers and like above posters have mentioned learning by doing in this situation will not be a good thing. Nor is it fair to the animals. You should learn first and then if you can properly do it experience. I don't think you are thinking about doing this for the right reasons. It's safer for the balls and it's easier to keep them separate. Conveinence of having only one cage is just not the reason it should be done. It's again less convenient. Remember these are live animals and any effect housing together will have on them can effect them long after. Much longer than you realize and may be able to handle.